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This topic ties in to another post that went up today. The Cause For Teens At Risk? discussion.
It seems that many kids go off due to emotional reasons. Either they were verbally abused by their teachers, principals, Rabbeim, Menahilim….
Why is it that in this generation we are so sensitive and if we are mistreated we are ready to throw in the towel with regards to Yiddishkeit? Are people more sensitive these days? Or are the Rabbeim less qualified and more insensitive?
If people are more sensitive thses days why is that? Is it an American thing?
If you think about it, our grandparents went through the worst horrors yet they picked themselves up after the Holocaust and built Yiddishe families. How many of us would be able to pick ourselves up or would even still want to be Jewish? I would think a drastically lower ratio than our grandparents generation.
Whats the answer?
In my opinion, the root of many of the OTD problems is the spoiled self-centered children that are being mis-trained at home.
it seems that your premise is that being sensitive is somehow a fault; Rav Yisroel Salanter (for one) would probably disagree; being insensitive is what is wrong.
In Egypt it was a minority of Jews who voluntarily left Egypt.
During the times of the Bais Hamikdosh, there were a large number of Jews who became Misyavnim.
In the 1900’s the Reform movement began.
Before the start of the Holocaust young Jews left Yiddishkeit in the droves for all type of “isms” -Communism, Socialism, Zionism.
There were always Jews who left Yiddishkeit throughout the centuries as this is BECHIRA- the ability to choose our spiritual destinies any moment of our lives.
Since Hashem created Man with the ability to choose his spiritual destiny, Man chooses. Because most humans do want to do good and not bad, but some still choose to go down the wrong path, excuses are needed for their devient behaviour. The same challenges that Hashem put before each human as a stepping stone to grow, can be claimed by some as THE CAUSE for making them slip down the slippery slope of sin.
Basically it boils down to bechira.
I think that firstly, in the times of the holocaust, etc. people instilled in their children the love for torah and yiddishkeit much more than now. Also, then there was no such thing as movies and such outside influences.
mischiefmaker, it was far from a perfect world then.. I once heard one of the rabbiem speaking, I think it was Reb Avigdor Miller, but i’m not sure..He said don’t think that the holocaust came and everyone was perfect then..assimilation, intermarriage, alot alot of lost youth to all the isms.. It’s just that when u realize that Hitler meant all of us.. if you were chassidush, litvish, even a converted christian it didnt matter. he took each and every single one of them….It didnt help how integrated you were. Maybe they realized that externals didn’t help. running away and turning away from yiddishkeit didnt help.
Also, Hashem shouldnt put us into this nasoyan ever ever, but ppl. have different reactions under different circumstances. If you will look back in history you will see that many many people clung to their faith in all trying times,f.e. spanish inquisition, kazakhs, pogroms, and world wars people gave their life al kiddush hashem.. The yetzer hora failed!! but guess what!? He found a different Technic, He’s trying us with an abundance of good………and many many people are falling!
May hashem bring moshiach bakurev and take us out of this long and bitter exhile!
I think that not only OTD kids are very sensitive. A lot of people today are extremely sensitive.
Sensitivity in itself does not cause people to go OTD. There a lot of frum kids and adults who are sensitive. In fact, because of my childhood where I was constantly critisized and degraded and tried to be forced into a certain mold, I used to be extremely sensitive if someone ever critisized me.
I made a conscious decision not to fous on what others think of me, but just to focus on doing the right thing. That took care of my sensitity, B”H.
Critisizing and degrading or spoiling children are some reasons that cause children to develope hypersensitivity. But also some children have geneticaly predisposed sensitive characters.
shimmel, actually Rabbi Miller, tzl, stated many times that the vast majority of the Jewish People in the years before the Holocaust were far removed from Yissishkeit, assimilated and assimilating, and the entire Jewish Nation was in danger of vanishing. The trends were very strong. He was there and an eyewitness.
Exactly!
Haskalah/Reform was a very strong force back then. BUT, families who fought against the trend were the ones whose Holocaust surviving children remained frum despite the destruction.
philosopher-
“The same challenges that Hashem put before each human as a stepping stone to grow, can be claimed by some as THE CAUSE for making them slip down the slippery slope of sin.”
So let me ask you: Does a child born into a family of highway robbers and murderers who knows nothing of wrong and right and certainly not about the Torah, for whom there is no contact with the outside world; does this child have the same bechira as you and me? I would not believe you if you said yes. Even R’ Dessler said there is no such thing as absolute, all-encompassing bechira. There is one point in which we have bechira, and that point varies based on our past experiences and our environment. Outside that we do not have full bechira. Who said everything that causes one to fall was a challenge he could have overcome? Hashem may not hold a person responsible for such a fall, and only hold him responsible when he falls at the point of his bechira. All we know is that there is bechira, not that is encompasses every choice a person ever makes. And the truth is, you can never, ever know for sure if a person did something with his bechira or not, unless you are a navi. It’s difficult enough to know yourself.
Does a child born into a family of highway robbers and murderers who knows nothing of wrong and right and certainly not about the Torah, for whom there is no contact with the outside world; does this child have the same bechira as you and me?
No person EVER has the same bechira as anothers. Everyone is different, has different challenges in life and different ways to deal with them.
However, as I’ve mentioned in a different post Hashem sent the mabul to annhilate the sinning people at the time, Hashem overturned Sedom, Hashem destroyed both Bais Hamikdoshes.
The fact is that Hashem punishes sin. The curses in the Torah are there for a reason.
We are here for a reason, we were given challenges and the ability to choose the right way. As it says we just need to open our hearts like the size of a hole of a needle and Hashem will lead us to Him.
It also says everything is in the Hands of Heaven chutz yirei Shomayim. Obviously, the choice is ours.
There is one point in which we have bechira, and that point varies based on our past experiences and our environment.
Exactly. I don’t see this as a contradiction to what I’ve said.
Who said everything that causes one to fall was a challenge he could have overcome? Hashem may not hold a person responsible for such a fall, and only hold him responsible when he falls at the point of his bechira.
Pharo, whose heart Hashem hardened, meforshim say Hashem did that because Pharo himself chose to do evil.
If we choose to want to be good, Hashem helps. And those who c”v choose evil, Hashem helps them with it too.
And the truth is, you can never, ever know for sure if a person did something with his bechira or not, unless you are a navi. It’s difficult enough to know yourself.
I don’t put everyone’s actions under a microscope. But those who go OTD is because of their bechira.
artchill – that is not true! There were many people who were very shtark and frum and had emuna before WWII and they withstood all of the terrible winds of haskola and isms , yet after WWII they went off. My grandmother came from a VERY VERY VERY frum home. The things she tells me about the standard there… and she came out with her emuna unscratched and untouched. She came from a family of 14 and 7 survived. out of those 7 3 went off. (b”h 2 are now practically frum) My grandmothers family was very strong, and fought against all the isms of the time. How can you come and make such generalizations?
Sof davar, yes i agree with you….Many people came out unbelieving.. we may not judge the generation that went through the unimaginable horrors of the holocaust! For some reason i find it hard to believe that hashem will judge them the same way we are judged..
philosopher-
“I don’t put everyone’s actions under a microscope. But those who go OTD is because of their bechira.”
How can you make such a general statement? I’m sure many have bechira not to go off the derech. But is it impossible for you to fathom that a child was so abused by the system or whatever it was that without proper guidance made it unreasonable to expect him or her not to go off? What basis do you have for assuming that everyone who goes of does it with bechira?
My intention when I mentioned the opinion that bechira only exists at a certain point was only to demonstrate that even people who are trying to do good do not always have bechira to do good, and vice versa.
“The fact is that Hashem punishes sin. The curses in the Torah are there for a reason.”
I don’t disagree. But that doesn’t say that Hashem punishes every sin, it means there are sins that he punishes. The ones done with bechira.
The way to italicize is with <em> before the text and </em> afterthank you mod
My other post got deleted -so here I go again: Kids are not more sensitive than any generation before, just in previous generations children had to keep everything inside. In our generation- there is more of a healthier psychological climate than ever before; the children don’t have the fear of adults like before, so they don’t bottle anything up!
An incident of abuse by someone who is supposed to represent Torah authority is much more likely to drive a child or teen OTD than abuse from the non Jewish world.
I disagree, I don’t think children are more sensitive today I think children are exposed to more today than in earlier generations and people in general are so much more rude and judgmental.
In earlier generations Parents and adults were much more careful to guard “adult” information from children such as financial issues, illness, death, shalom bayis issues, community issues, lashon horah, etc. Today everything is an open book, especially in school if parents have not paid up tuition, kids are kicked out for all to see. Loshan Horah has run rampant, even a 5 year old knows whats happening up the block. Neither parents nor teachers/Rebbeim are teaching mussar appropriately and that goes for etiquette and manners. No one cares anymore how the other person feels, everyone is so into themselves and that goes for the younger generation as well. When was the last time a kid got up for you and gave you their seat? Have you been to a kiddush or a bris lately? Have you noticed how parents seat their kids down at the table as if the simcha was a party prepared for their children even though there are invited adult guests left standing balancing their plates in their hands?
Is it any wonder why kids get hurt? Does anyone really care that they get hurt? Is anyone taking responsibility for the fact that so many kids are getting hurt? Is a child being sensitive because s/he is hurt they were thrown out of school with no where to go as if they were a piece of garbage? Why hasn’t any adults taken responsibility for all the children that went off the derech because of this one issue? Could they not have been saved? Were all these kids being too sensitive? Do you have any clue how many of these kids, who were really, really basically good kids went on to do heavy drugs because they were kicked out?
Kids are NOT too sensitive today, WE the adults are TOO judgmental and rude.
Kids are NOT too sensitive today, WE the adults are TOO judgmental and rude.
I’m sure years ago parents and teachers were perfect.
Philosopher, only Hashem is perfect! The rest of us are only human.
Children are not built up with the same confidence and wholesomeness. Parents have less time for children and children have less of a good relationship with their parents. Children who do not have such a good relationship with their parents are more at risk.
Look at from this perspective. There is our world and the outside world. The outside world is very tempting, it has always been tempting.
When they look at both worlds what do they see? It depends on their environment and personality. If they have a nice environment where they enjoy what they have, and have a good foundation, and are pretty happy, then they don’t care for what is outside. However, if their environment is not that pleasent, the outside looks more tempting.
What we need to do is give them a pleasent environment where they can enjoy learning and growing. And acknowledge effort so they continue it. Plus, we should be a good example to them of middos, wisdom, caring and emunah, so they can look up to us 🙂
speaking of sensitivity these days, I have a question to pose I hope someone can shed light on.
Recently, whenever i hear of a good bachur who was nichshol in arayos with another woman, or a girl from a very frum family who engages in inappropriate acts with guys, if i know the guy/girl or family, i’ve gotten a pretty big panic attack thats lasts for a few days. I can’t place it. It’s not logical. Just regesh. i dont have such a strong reaction if i hear of a friend who A) already chose this path and gave up on the fight with the yetzer hara. B) in other aveiros it doesnt strike me- for example, if i had heard a friend started to do avoda zara, i’d be shocked, but i wouldnt have a panic attack. C) bitul zman, haschatat zerah, also not a strong reaction.
Just good guys tryiing to fight the battle, and lose, with another person gives me this feeling. It’d be normal if it lasted for 10 minutes, but I’m scared that it can lasts for days. and that i can care so strongly about something so indirect to me.
Does anyone have any advice or does anyone know of anyone who has experienced anything similar to this? thanks.
I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and I think its not so much that kids are so sensitive, its that the outside world is so welcoming, no one needs to stay in their spot anymore.
What I mean is that in the middle ages or ancient history, you were defined by your religion. So a Christian lived with Christians and a Jew lived with Jews and they only did cross business. They didn’t socialize, marry etc.
As society gets more and more open and accepting, we have the opposite problem of discrimination. An adult child (meaning 18+) can get a job, live anywhere, make friends with people who have totally different values. If they find out he’s Jewish, who cares? Or cool, he has ethnic traditions.
Judaism doesn’t have the societal hold it once had, so it has to win everyone over on merits. Which can be done.
As society gets more and more open and accepting, we have the opposite problem of discrimination. An adult child (meaning 18+) can get a job, live anywhere, make friends with people who have totally different values. If they find out he’s Jewish, who cares? Or cool, he has ethnic traditions.
A frum man looks jewish immiediatly so it doesnt apply.
arc, people don’t care. And if he wants to leave Orthodox Judaism, presumably he would take off his kippah.
I haven’t read through all the posts yet, so I may be reiterating what someone else has already posted. I think in general we are raising children wo believe that the only thing in life that is important is for them to be happy. We are so worried about their self-esteem that we are actually raising them in a way that predisposes them to having self-esteem issues.
When we were kids, our parents told us to “suck it up,” (well, not in those words, but you get the idea). If we fell down, we had to get right up. maybe with a little kiss on the booboo. If we were yelled at in class, we, not the teacher, were ALWAYS at fault. Though we were urged to always do our best, our best HAD to be better than we were trying to do. We were not coddled in the same way as kids are today. That’s a fact. So when things did not go our way, were were not “allowed” to act overly sensitively. There were fewer kids OTD in my neighborhood, and I suspect that those who were, did not get that way because someone hurt their feelings.
That being said, we do have such a problem today and it has to be addressed properly. Maybe the way to start is to worry more about our children’s actions, than their feelings amd call them on it. Being a responsible human thing builds their character. And even better, it helps build better self-esteem.
Not to say that many points being brought up aren’t true. But to say that there were never OTDs? Look at all of the non observant or assimilated jews. They all had ancestors or grandparents who were religious and at some point left it all.
mybat, sure there were people who went OTD. But nowadays it is supremely easy.
It used to be about making a major life change. You went OTD, you didn’t live in the Ghetto. You didn’t have access to your families. You were totally cut off and had to integrate into outside culture. You had to try to blend in. You didn’t flaunt your culture or heritage (anyone, not just Jews). If you weren’t a WASP, you did everything you could to live up to what they did.
Nowadays people are live and let live type. No one cares what you do or how you do it or when you do it.
This is much more dangerous than hatred.
Sorry Oomis this time we don’t agree. When WE were kids teachers were more qualified in our school system. They didn’t hire the cheapest and youngest they could find who came in with all their problems weighing down on their shoulders, not to mention being behind in pay and taking it out on the kids. When WE were kids our teachers HAD to please the parents and the administration at that time were also busy pleasing the parents and keeping their paying customers happy, not like today.
So when there was a problem, the parents naturally sided with the teacher since they trusted the teachers more back then and probably had more reason to. Today there is a lot more reason to trust kids and really listen to their side of the story and not just do what our parents did and agree with the teacher. Schools don’t normally have teacher conferences which they did in my day, where the principal and administration sat with the teachers to review issues and to give direction. Teachers understood what the school wanted of them and how they were expected to hold up their end of the agreement. That doesn’t hold true for these days and times.
And what is wrong if kids are happy? A yid darf zein b’simcha, that is what we are trying to teach them. We are not saying or teaching them that they will never face adversity, but we are trying to teach them that they must learn to adjust to ALL situations and be happy. They must guard their self-esteem and self-confidence and not let anyone trash it or destroy it. We are teaching them to come to us with their issues so we can guide them and help them learn how or figure out how to deal with them.
It is when these messages are not conveyed or are not getting through to our children that they fall prey to OTD. We are not teaching our kids “do whatever you want to be happy”. We are teaching that Yiddishkeit is based on being happy by doing mitzvos and living by the laws of the Torah. And those include bein adom l’makom and adom l’chaveiro.
anyone with advice on my earlier post?
Haros: You should look up information about panic attacks and see if that is what you are really going through. It usually happens with physiological symptoms, increased heartbeat, difficulty breathing, trembling, hot or cold flashes, etc. sometimes a complete inability to function until the attack passes. Often the treatment is anti-anxiety drugs. I’m guessing most people who suffer from this speak to a therapist of some kind.
Haros, the problem could stem from the shock of it all. Those who you would think are not capable of sinking to that low level is so shocking that it challenges our bitachon. If we lose our level of bitachon, even just going down a step or two we lose our sense of security and balance and that can cause pure and utter panic.
I was speaking last week to a young man( 22) who is a recovering drug addict. He was telling me how he is working hard to be shomer Torah and Mitzvos and then he was telling me about his girlfriends and his conquests. I finally told him “You said you wanted to find the right girl and get married soon. Why don’t you start respecting your future wife and stop adding more ghosts that you will eventually bring into your marriage? You know eventually you will have to come clean and tell her all about this?” And then there was silence. About ten seconds later he said to me, “you just laid some heavy stuff on me. Your right, I’m so stupid. Why am i doing this it is meaningless? Wow thats really heavy”
Kids today are not being trained how to think about their futures. They are not taught about what hormones are doing to their bodies and how to cope with it, all they are told is what is assur and what is evil. They are also not told about the beauty of marriage and going into it pure and innocent and why that is important in order to have the most intimate and special relationship with their future spouse.
aries-thanks-that which you said-“it challenges our bitachon. If we lose our level of bitachon, even just going down a step or two we lose our sense of security and balance and that can cause pure and utter panic.” might be the explanation on why specifically this topic is causing it, and would explain how its not just a jolt but rather a lasting pain. now that its possibly “diagnosed”, what is there to do about it? I don’t plan on smoking b/c of it, or drinking hard liquor whenever it arises…
Aries, I don’t mean that kids should not be happy. Chas V’sholom. I do however, mean that worrying about every little thing MAKING them happy, should not be a priority. If that were the case, we sould never send them to school, or take them for immunizations, or to the dentist. We cannot always worry about the impact on their self-esteem, yet we are conditioning them to think that being happy is the main thing in life. It says “Ivdu Hashem b’simcha.” Sometimes we forget that the Ivdu part, the work, is the major component of what brings us to simcha. Our kids have been coddled, we are afraid to discipline them for fear of hurting their feelings, and sending them to a psychologist years down the line because of those hurt feelings. When I was a child, things were different, and in my very humble opinion, better. Kids should be happy, but I know I was, and my parents were not afraid to say NO, or to set us straight in life. I see parents today trying to reason with kids having tantrums, by bribing them. The first time my toddler acted up in a store, I left the cart with my packages (apologizing to the clerk), took him out, and we had no more shopping expeditions together for a while. He got the message, and never did it a second time. His self=esteem is just fine, thanks, and he has a toddler of his own now.
Oomis, I don’t believe in shielding your child from the word “NO”, I believe it is the first word a parent should teach a child along with “I love you sooooooooooo much!”. It is obligatory for parents to teach children right from wrong, the difference between wants and needs, the difference between rights and privileges, the meaning of love and respect, and the necessity of rules and discipline.
Along with that a Jewish parent must teach a child that WE the chosen people must be oved Hashem b’simcha as you said. We will fall and get hurt but we will brush ourselves up and try again. Things will hurt us but we will persevere because Hashem is always by our side and will see us through our toughest challenges. We teach our children that Hashem tests each of us in different ways and we must rise to the challenge even though they are difficult and painful, and yet we must be oved hashem b’simcha.
However, through it all we must protect our self-esteem and self-confidence and not allow anyone to destroy it or damage it because that is also a precious gift from Hashem. Ours to own and develop to its highest potential and no one has the right to encroach upon it. Those qualities is what makes us the good Jews that we are. It is those qualities that allow us to stand up to adversity and to the other nations and say “We are the chosen people”. If we let others from within our own community take that away from us, then what is left? Who are we? Who do we become? We are nobody, we are a shell of a human being. We become OTD with no connection to our Torah and mitzvos. We look for shtusim to make ourselves feel better. We look for sedatives to numb our pain and loss. We float in a sea of nothingness searching for that strength to catch hold of that old peace and sense of security.
Well informed, whether your posek paskened that the past can remain in the past or not, is irrelevant between two human beings who wish to become as one. We are not talking about halacha we are talking about human nature. I believe that you are a male. Would you have wanted to marry someone with a past? And if she had a past would you be ok not knowing what it was? Could you become one with her and not have questions and doubts? Would you not want to know the whole truth so that nothing would come out in the future that could hurt you or your relationship?
As a female I can tell you that even if I could forgive a past, I would still want to know what it was. I certainly would not want to marry someone or have my child marry someone and then have some young woman approach him in the street to reminisce or even say hello to him and then I would wonder what his relationship was?
That is my point about bringing ghosts into a marriage. So the psak is irrelevant. It does not take the feelings and considerations of the future issues into account which can ultimately lead to divorce.
EDITED
OK, I believe we really are on the same page, Aries. Have a gebensched and healthy year.
Wellinformed, you are really not well informed on this issue and you are not being realistic. You think that just because a person has a past he will marry someone with a past? But you just said that your posek paskened the past should remain there and he doesn’t have to divulge it, therefor he nor she will be looking for shiduchim that have the same background. Once they have “returned” they do not have to swim in that pool any longer as far as you and your posek are concerned. And just because an individual does not wish to remember or deal with their past any longer because they have b”h reached a higher madreigah that doesn’t mean that their acquaintances from the past whether they have improved or not can not be relied on to not say hello and not approach them with in joy in seeing their improvements or just to say hello. So that concept of yours is false and does not hold water. You cannot stop another person from approaching you.
And as far as what marriage is about, yes it is about the future but is also based on a foundation of honesty and trust not secrecy. If you believe that you can build a marriage on secrets then you are totally mistaken. A marriage built on secrets is doomed for failure. If this is the advice of your posek who deals in marriage counseling I wouldn’t trust him with any couple I know. He obviously does not have the appropriate training to counsel anyone. Couples who need counseling should go to trained counselors and not Rabbonim who dabble in marriage counselors. Rabbonim who concentrate their kochos in Shalom Bayis is another parsha altogether.
“Couples who need counseling should go to trained counselors and not Rabbonim who dabble in marriage counselors. Rabbonim who concentrate their kochos in Shalom Bayis is another parsha altogether. “
Aries! watch your language! how do you speak about a posek like that? i know of a posek in my community who has saved many many marriages. How can you speak that way? i know for a fact that he sends people for counseling and he doesn’t get payed for all the hours and hours and hours he puts in. and that’s definitely not what he concentrates all his kochos on. He’s a very busy person with a lot on his shoulders.
WIY: I tend to agree with you (and disagree with aries) in the vast majority of discussions, but here I am having trouble believing you could make such a clear-cut claim. If a girl didn’t tell a prospective shidduch that he isn’t her first, the marriage could be halachicly invalid. That isn’t the case in the reverse, nevertheless not mentioning such a major point, would seem to me, be a breach in trust, protocol, and honesty. Perhaps regarding other (lesser) issues this point would not be applicable, but on such a major issue, it is difficult seeing a way around it.
Back to the original topic –
There are two possible contributing factors:
1} Kids are under much more pressure these days in ways which are not related to understandable factors – boys especially. Kids are expected to spend much longer hours in school for many more years, starting at a younger age, and they are expected to perform at very high levels. (Gemara at ten????) Behavior is much more regimented. If you can’t sit still for hours, or your shirt is untucked, or if you have too many of the wrong kind of questions – then you are in serious trouble.
2) Families have much less input to their children’s lives. The children spend most of their time in school or at camp, mothers work and have little energy for their children, fathers work or learn long hours. And of course, many boys are sent away to dorm at 14 or 15, and in effect have to raise each other, without the support and understanding of parents and family.
And then of course kids are well-informed about the demands of the shidduch scene – boys must learn well, girls must be perfect. And so on. And of course if you goof up it not only impacts you, it endangers the life chances of your brothers and sisters.
If you had all this on your shoulders, and couldn’t go to an adult for help, wouldn’t you be a little “sensitive?” We’re crushing our children. The wonder is that more of them don’t go off.
Lets change the title to:
“Why are parents so insensitive these days?”
Then instead of answering, everybody can just be demonstrating.
WIY suppose everything you say is correct? What about the medical aspects involved?
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