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Why specifically denim jeans? What exactly gives them this status?
I’m not sure about the chukas hagoy issue, but I heard a shiur once and the person speaking said that denim was a very strong material made and used predominantly by laborers, like people in construction, masonry, etc. Thus, the material and the things made from it became defined as working-labor class material, which, depending on the person wearing them, can be beneath their stature. Kings and princes have not in previous generations gone around wearing these types of clothes (times have changed everywhere).
Who says they are? They were invented by a Jew.
Why specifically denim jeans? What exactly gives them this status?
People who wear jeans usually w*rk, which everyone knows is a four letter word and Assur.
gavra_at_w*rk
P.S. Who is the “many”?
I think that jeans (and dungaree) were mostly considered work clothes (physical labor) and were frowned upon as appropriate attire in a yeshiva/school setting where a more refined environment was sought. Once it was not approved there, it eventually became inappropriate in the shuls as well and on and on.
Considering theirinventor was Levi Strauss, a “member of the tribe”, and even bigger question.
For many, though, the answer to your question is simple. It’s chukas hagoy becasue of the power and leverage of whoever told the community it is chukas hagoy.
check this out:
Somehoe denim has gotten that reputation. I stopped wearing denim when i was 9. My children, neither boys nor girls, ever wore denim.
I never heard anyone say that “denim” is prohibited by “hukas goyim” but most frum Jews tend to dress in a reasonably formal clothes, but not too fancy since we don’t want to show off or embarass the poor – and denim is almost by definition a fabric for informal usage. If you work in construction you might wear denim, but not to go to shul. You might wear denim when building a sukkah, but not for sitting in it. But that is a matter of fashion. If one arrives at the point where goyim wear denim when dressed up (e.g. lawyers wear it to court, the president wears it to his inaguration, etc.), it will start being worn by more frum Jews.
I don’t allow any of my children to socialize with anyone wearing any form of denim. The material of the yetzer hara, I’d say.
I heard in a Shiur that denim was originally (early 1900s) the material that the bags for construction materials were made of – workers took empty bags and made clothing from them – it’s considered not mechubadik for bnei milachim – yes, today designer jeans can be majorly expensive. Personally I think we need more focus on penimius and less judging in Klal Yisroel.
Personally I think we need more focus on penimius and less judging in Klal Yisroel.
Interesting you bring this issue up (Hijack!).
In Mishpacha Magazine (Family First?) the past two weeks, there were two letter writers. The first noted that the “Tznius” classes focus on clothing, which creates a focus by women on clothing, even if Tznius. She said that women are much better off (and the person giving the lecture agreed) if instead of having “Tznius meetings”, they would learn Torah, thereby showing the beauty of Hashem and being a Jew.
The next week, another letter writer completely disagreed. She said she gives a class on Tznius clothing every friday night, and how beautiful it is. She also recommended R. Falk’s book on Tznius as showing how critical it is to focus on clothing.
Thoughts?
I can only speak for myself.
My perception is that jeans are the epitome of casual and common, the exact opposite of formal.
Being of Royal blood, and as a representative of The King, my father, I would never wear denim jeans.
Whether it is a specific issur or not.
Dbrim, you heard wrong or you remember wrong. See the Wikipedia article on the Jewish tailor Jacob W. Davis under the title “The birth of jeans”
Gavra, Rav Falk is known to be extremely machmir. This has been a hallmark of popular halacha books since Rav Neuwirh was forced to retract leniencies in the first edition of “Shemirat Shabbat K’Hilchata” after being attacked and threatened with a cherem on the book. Read “UNDERSTANDING TZNIUT: Modern Controversies in the Jewish Community” by Rabbi Rabbi Yehuda Henkin also. If you have a practical question ask your LOR.
Being of Royal blood, and as a representative of The King, my father, I would never wear denim jeans.
My perception is that jeans are the epitome of casual and common, the exact opposite of formal.
Because you would never stoop to work in a garden, mix concrete, or build a house. Certainly not mine ore, or drill for oil, or quarry rock. That is for Untermenschen, not those with “Royal blood”.
I spit on your “Royal blood”.
There are pictures of the following people wearing jeans
Ronald Reagan
Bill Clinton
George Bush
Barak Obama
Prince Charles
Prince William
zahavasdad: Can you refer us to a picture of any of the above wearing jeans at an occasion where one is expected to be formally dressed? Jeans are a cheap but study undressy fabric. They are and were designed for doing physical work. It’s what you wear when you ride horse, not when you ride in a motorcade. It’s what you wear at Camp David when only family and staff are around – not what you wear to a state dinner in honor of foreign dignitaries.
Most frum Jews will dress semi-formally (respectfully) at all times, and denim is by definition and informal non-dress fabric.
This response is for Feivel (and his ilk).
I have been wearing various colors of denim jeans for most of my life, which based on your title – Talmid – means that Ive been working longer than you are on this earth. I honestly don’t care about your personal opinion about jeans, and as does gavra, I spit on your royal blood. I challenge you to bring me the following halachic sources:
1. proof that jeans are not permitted.
2. proof that one may only wear white shirts and black pants at all times (as Im sure you do). While You’re at it, bring me proof why one must wear a hat at all times (I understand davening, bentching, etc).
Trust me, I went to yeshiva just like you, i keep shabbos and kashrus just like you. the major difference is that I dont possess your unbelievable arrogance. You should be aware that back before you graced the world with your presence, most people wore colored shirts during the week, even rabbonim.
You may be a tremendous talmid chochom, but remember, derech eretz kadma letorah. Learn some modesty.
BoysWork: it is you who displays arrogance and chutzpah.
Feivel was very clear that he was only speaking for himself.
He expressed his opinion about how royalty should dress. ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? has its roots in Chazal. Do you spit at Chazal?
We should all strive to be talmidim, as old as we may be.
akuperma – and not everyone is formally dressed all of the time, unless you are the overseer or the camp commandant. Those who work wear work clothes, and work clothes means (in many situations) jeans.
It is the aversion to manual labor, the superiority, and the social bubble that he (and others in his society) live in that makes someone say something so arrogant, stupid, conceited and Racial. And that is why Denim Jeans are “chukas hagoy”, because they are associated with manual labor, which Juden, Southerners and Germans have Untermenchen do for them, but would never do themselves.
Chazal in many places disagree, but we are very far from Chazal.
DY – No Shaychus. As ZD pointed out, even a Melech wears jeans when they are appropriate wear.
ZD,
I’ve never seen a picture of R Moshe or R Yaakov or R Elyashiv or R Shteinman wearing Jeans. Nor any of the many Rebbes.
You can decide who you feel it is appropriate to emulate.
I suspect if Feivel were a farmer, he might also wear jeans while working. That specific situation isn’t really what this conversation is about.
A real melech, btw, would never wear jeans. The fact that several POTUS have worn jeans speaks to our eroded respect for the position (as further evidence, see who is the Republican presidential nominee), not to the appropriateness of denim as royal attire.
I’ve never seen R Moshe or R Yaakov or R Elyashiv or R Shteinman trolling on the internet either, Nor any of the many Rebbes.
You can decide who you feel it is appropriate to emulate.
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