Why are Children from divorced homes treated as second class citizens?

The little I know,

I think your arguments would be stronger without the insults.

Time:

There have been therapists whose offhanded response to a marital problem is to dismiss the option of reconciliation with not as much as a wave of the hand. These are very exceptional. The many therapists I know would never consider that, and do not actually recommend or push divorce. You might claim they are do not push against it, but to say they advocate it is untrue.

Next, the Torah says ערות דבר, and there is discussion among Tano’im what this means. There is no specification in Chumash, and Poskim are also not universal on what they say are grounds. That’s all I stated with that.

Joseph:

I am not complimentary to our heilige yeshivos. I see firsthand what they are doing, and there is more than a lot to be desired. It seems your “on the derech” is determined by the camera. Internally, the bulk of the graduates of the heilige yeshivos are far weaker than they would have been a few generations ago. And, no, it’s not because of the internet. The Chareidi is doing a great job if we look at the pictures. But, רחמנא ליבא בעי, and here we have failed to fulfill our mandate. When we show this objectively to the chinuch world, they dismiss this by claiming that the responsibility to imbue the children with a “brenn” for Yiddishkeit belongs to the parents. Sorry, but punting that is not okay. Sure, parents must do more. But during the yeshiva day, the hanhalah are the loco parentis, not the boot camp guards or instructors.

Now, when they fail to move in to at least partially compensate for the missing parent in the child’s life, they are derelict in their duty.

@Joseph: That’s in the US. In Eretz Yisroel the “off-derech” rate is much worse. Close to one in ten or אין בית אשר אין שם מת according to some. It just goes to show that it’s not the level of frumkeit that’s keeping kids frum.

Both the Ashkanazim and Sefardim have pasukim who to folllow. The Ashkanazim according to the Chasam Sofer ובני ישראל יוצאים ביד רמה and the sefardim according to Harav Ovadyah Yosef Yechaveh Daas 5 לכו אל יוסף כל אשר יאמר לך תעשו.

The little I know
yitzchokm:

“You seem to have amassed a rather substantial number of weird ideas and spewed them into the dialogue here in the CR. I wonder how you have the gall to continue this foolishness without shame”

So, because I disagree with your definition of when divorce should be acceptable, I “have no shame”. Interesting. Or, perhaps you’re wrong? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Yseribus: That Israeli figure is a myth if you’re referring to Chareidim; very very far from reality.

“According to many posters here this issue is only one of your sensitive perception rather than a real issue.”

Blatant untruth. Twisting is akin to lies. According to many posters here THERE IS A SUGGESTION THAT this issue MAY BE your sensitive perception…

Syag Lchochma,

Ok
Have it your way.

Let’s take away the stigma of divorce, it should never have been stigmatized to begin with. Every morning couples must decide if they want to remain married or get divorced. Do whatever is easier, depending on what’s for breakfast.

Of course, a psychologist or mental counselor will help decide. Or even a trusted friend. As long as everyone’s happy, because that’s the goal in life. Being happy. Children must never see their parents argue because that’s terrible for their psychological growth. They must always look at their childhood as a Rosy Fantasyland where no stress exists. Everyone lives in harmony and lives in perfect sync with each other. Bickering is cause for divorce. Divorce must always be a choice.

Also, let’s do away with “cookie cutter” school systems because it is the reason that so many students are OTD. Last I heard most of our yeshiva graduates are OTD.

instead, starting this year, we hire an experienced teacher for each individual child to make sure he gets the proper cuddling and warmth needed for him to remain an orthodox Jew. Funding for this new project will begin momentarily.

Syag,

Excellent point about the distortion of what “many posters” have written.

Otherwise, I think we have reached the point where Yitzchok/Joseph does not deserve the dignity of a response on this topic. His positions are so demonstrably absurd that the only result of responding to them would be to lend them credence.

yitzchokm:

Your sarcasm does not reflect much intellect, just a poor effort at humor. It’s not about Dr. Spock feel good stuff. It’s about the great guidance of our Chachomim how to raise children. And the failures to follow their guidance are extreme. Sadly, the yeshivos that follow their directions are few and far between. That’s not what they say in their fundraising and publicity efforts.

Divorce is always a choice. And the broad brush that this is the favorite approach of therapists is fictional. Rather, there is always an effort to reconcile a marriage that has even minimal potential. Talk to some therapists, and then address the issue. You are pushing agendas that have nothing to do with fact. That is frankly foolish. The best environment for raising children consists of several elements. The spiritual is one. The harmonious one is another. There are kids who are resilient, and manage well in life despite difficult pasts. Not all victims of abuse are scarred for life. Not all children of divorced homes are damaged goods. Does that suggest to promote or tolerate abuse or divorced? Is this the senselessness that supports your sarcasm?

There is unfair and undue stigma to divorce, and yeshivos are part of it. They can serve well as part of the solution, but are often part of the problem. No, divorce is not good. Many times, it is the healthier alternative to a home of constant strife, divisiveness, and chaos. And stop knocking professionals. There are rotten apples in that barrel, as in any other group of people. But on the whole, they can do much to help people make rational decisions in their lives, and reach decisions with responsibility, not knee jerk reactions. They can help the couples who do divorce do so without the ugly conflicts that destroy children (if their directions would only be followed).

Joseph,

“Furthermore, regarding the Halacha I earlier cited, it has been the accepted psak across Klal Yisroel since the time of the Mechaber without any dissent or disagreement by any other poskim”

So let me get this straight – are you contending that, because we have the Shulchan Aruch, there is no longer a need to have a personal rav? Do you have a rav you go to for shailos? Or do you pasken for yourself based on what you think is your understanding of the Shulchan Aruch? I believe in the authority of the Shulchan Aruch. I do not believe in the ability of a layperson to properly understand the nuances of a shaila and then apply a comprehensive knowledge of the entirety of halacha in order to properly render a psak. There is a lot more to rendering a psak than finding a random siman in the Shulchan Aruch that seems related to the shaila at hand and pulling halachos out of context.

CTLAWYER,

“I’m the family law divorce lawyer.”

The only one??

TLIK: There are some truths about the Torah community that you have a difficult time digesting. Firstly that the vast majority of Klal Yisroel’s heilige mosdos DO today follow the directions of Gedolei Yisroel. Secondly that the mosdos do nissim every day for the children of Klal Yisroel and they are working wonderfully even if there’s some room for improvement. And thirdly that the vast majority of divorces that have transpired over the last 50 years, with it getting worse in the last 20 years, have been unnecessarily and were avoidable. This last point I heard directly from multiple Gedolei HaDor.

Avram, I certainly did answer your questions. It was the part of my comment that you purposely neglected in your only partial quote from me. Specially that “I didn’t apply it to any actual case.”

CTL:

Involving a Rav or BD before the civil divorce is common practice. The issue otherwise is the arkaos question. I assume that your approach does not minimize or negate the BD process at all, and involves resolution of the affairs via negotiation rather than litigation. Under this scenario, I don’t question the process you use, but understand it as just an alternative.

In reality, few cases get to actual litigation (I refer to NY), and end up being negotiated with lawyers and toanim, etc. I have yet to encounter a BD that does not ask whether there has been an attempt at professional intervention, and in the absence would not proceed until such an effort was undertaken. In fact, a classic delay tactic used by either spouse is to block efforts at proceeding to a get by claiming to want “shalom bayis”. It is common, and occurs even in cases of severe abuse and infidelity (and is more often than not the tactic of the culprit). The concept of a halachic pre-nup is to avoid such charades.

“Involving a Rav or BD before the civil divorce is common practice.”
CTL admitted that he wasn’t speaking strictly of the frum community in regards to his experiences (specifically ravs not being involved). The rest of the thread seemed to be mainly focusing on frum communities.

“a classic delay tactic used by either spouse is to block efforts at proceeding to a get by claiming to want “shalom bayis”.”
Can you explain what you mean by this? What ulterior motive do they have to delay to proceedings? While we’re talking about stigmas, why is there this stigma on one party trying to stop the divorce from happening? Breakups are never mutual; why is the one side who wanted to stay married always villainized, especially if it’s the man? I’m actually asking, not trying to be argumentative.

“The concept of a halachic pre-nup is to avoid such charades.”
This wouldn’t really apply to the frum communities being discussed by most posters or the very non-religious clients that CTL might have to deal with. It’s only a very thin group within the Jewish world that would use this.

Joseph:

I strongly disagree. The “Shalom Bayis” tactic is not about wanting to reconcile a marriage. It is more often a delay and refusal tactic. The reality is that there are some marriages that can be saved, and should be. I do not challenge the BD for paying attention to this claim. But the end result is that most of these cases have already failed at numerous efforts, and that this claim is unrelated to a true desire to reconcile. I speak from considerable experience.

As for the reference to the halachic pre-nup, I happen to be in the know. The RCA pre-nup has huge halachic questions, and the poskim ruled against for good reason. What you may not know is that there have been other efforts to develop something that the mainstream poskim can accept, and that quite a number of them have already approved it. It is not yet being rolled out to the public, but it has gotten past a surprising number of well recognized poskim. You may reserve your comments on this for the information about what comprises this and the opinions of the poskim that will be released to the public in due time. My reference was the reason for having a pre-nup, not any trace of accepting the existing RCA document. The proposed pre-nup does not cause Get-Meusa, as already concluded by renowned poskim. I apologize if you thought I stood in approval of the RCA version.

Joseph:

You are misunderstanding me. I still vote in favor of shalom bayis, and making a sincere effort to reconcile. I am not pro-divorce. Yet, many, many cases of marriages that are long since dead due to abuse or infidelity encounter the “shalom bayis” claim. These are not at all based on halacha, and the need to proceed with the get is recognized by rabbonim and dayanim universally. All that happens is that the process gets delayed. I do not have any hesitation in cases where there is a chance, even remote, of reconciliation. But it is easily exploited as another version of abuse. Ask around by dayanim with experience. They have all observed this, and all will recognize the tactic. Halacha does not protect this, and there is no siman in Shulchan Aruch that supports the exploitation of halacha to continue abuse.

@Avram in MD

Stating that I was the Family Law Divorce lawyer was a direct reply to Mentsch1.
He is the medical doctor. I defer to him in things in his scope of expertise and assert my expertise in my legal specialty.

I do not proclaim to be the only Family Law/Divorce Lawyer nor does Mentsch1 claim to be the only medical doctor.

“I also only take clients who are agreeable up front to an equitable distribution of the assets and funding the children(s)’ education.”

CTLawyer: If a potential client is adamant that she wants her husband to be financially responsible for the children’s education or that she wants most of the martial assets, you’ll decline her as a client?

Avram in MD,
No. If course not. And on the contrary, I find that children from divorced homes are actually treated with more TLC than other children.

I’m specifically referring to the stigma of divorce, not the collateral damage. It’s actually because of the collateral damage, the children, that divorce should be stigmatized.

Neville – You may be right about the ineffectiveness of hurling insults but I believe you are intelligent enough and self-aware enough to know that throwing in a line like:

but it doesn’t help anything to just scream insults and accusations of trolling at anyone with whom you disagree.

is just manipulative. You know well that I am not screaming accusations of trolling at anyone with whom I disagree.

“You know well that I am not screaming accusations of trolling at anyone with whom I disagree.”

I didn’t mean to offend you; maybe the way I put it was too harsh. But, I have to say, it sure came across like that’s exactly what you were doing.

Yitzchok is seemingly trying to state that there should be a stigma on divorce to protect the children. I didn’t see an actual rebuttal to that other than an accusation that he’s Joseph. I could have just missed a post, I suppose.

@Joseph
You have written that you work in the NYC Public Schools. I would expect you to know that ‘equitable’ does not mean equal. It means fair and even handed.

If the female wanted representation is a stay at home mom and dad is a big earner equitable would have him bearing the brunt of education costs.
I get prospective clients coming in and saying they want to economically destroy their soon to be ex spouse.
I won’t participate in that type of action.

My basic rule of thumb when speaking to long term marrieds (more than 15 years) seeking a divorce (as opposed to responding to an action filed by the spouse) is that if you are not willing to give half of assets to your spouse I’ll not represent you. This has nothing to do with support orders, alimony, educational, medical or custody. Those can be negotiated in an equitable manner. CT has very good child support guidelines which are adjusted for income.
Spouses with children are cautioned that the marriage may be ending, but the parenting continues and they must learn to get along and behave civilly towards each other. There will be simchas to share in the future and even the costs of these can be negotiated into the settlement.

CTLawyer: Why would state law, or even negotiated settlements, obligate any divorced parent to pay for their adult (age 18 and above) children’s college costs or wedding expenses? Married parents have no such legal or financial obligation to pay such expenses, should they choose not to. Why should divorced parents be more obligated than married parents?