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Health,
I don’t know why you think the gemara on 44 is the “main” gemara, which somehow renders the one on 101 obsolete. On 101, the gemara quotes the beraisa (posted above) which gives marrying someone (much) older or younger as an example of an ill-advised marriage. The gemara on 44 asks a question on the mishna which allows multiple yibums (from different brothers) because this would also be ill-advised. The two are in no way contradictory, and, in fact, the Tur (166) gives the former as an example.
true, true
Enough with Talmud 101!
Good line.
Regardless, the beraisa, quoted on kuf aleph (sorry) and mem daled says that it is not a good idea to marry someone much older or younger, and the halacha is brought like this in the Tur (the S.A. doesn’t specify what kind of an eitzah, but doesn’t argue on the beraisa, obviously).
ok veteran I did my research and you’re right
I looked in Eeshei HaTanach on a bunch of people it quotes sofrim 21-9 that says dinah was 6
seichel tov says she was 8.5
and Midrash Lekach Tov says Tzipporah was a young lady b/c the passuk doesn’t say V’Tahar b/c she didn’t look pregnant
Mod: I had a few more minutes now to completely answer his post. Can you please remove the earlier one? Thanks.
Daas Yochid – IDK; Did you read my post on the previous page? Why in the world would you think this applies to a regular marriage or even regular Yibum? The Gemorrah says quite clearly that it’s going on that case of more than one that needs Yibum.
It’s a beraisa. The gemara quoted it to ask a kasha. The beraisa was talking about regular yibum.
I completely fail to follow your train of thought.
Likewise.
the Gemorrah says if he is wealthy, he can marry more than one and we don’t tell him anything like -stick with your own age buddy.
Because it’s an unrelated case; the yevamos are of similar age to him.
The gemorrah says we only tell him this when there will be conflict (Kettoh). So why do you keep on pretending that this is just like a Chok in Torah Sheb’ksav. You keep insisting that this Eitza has no reason and applies all the time, in every type of marriage.
And of course it’s brought down in Tur because this is the Halacha with more than one women to be Meyabim.
The Tur does not say one word about more than one yevama, because the beraisa was not only talking in such a case.
Even when the Torah says something which is a Chok, Chazal tried to find some sort of reason and here where the Gemorrah says clearly what the reason is, you pretend there isn’t any.
I never pretended any such thing. The reason given is ketotah.
And btw, how did you come across this Gemorrah -did you learn it now or recently, or did you do some Talmudic search on the net looking for something to prove me wrong?!?
coffee addict-
Thank you and kol hakavod to you. You are a worthy opponent, zein gebentched.
I was busy.
I hope with good things. I’m busy now, so I’ll try to respond to yor way of learning the gemara later.
The kasha on mem daled is how can beis din allow an ill advised marriage (multiple wives – assumed in the kasha to be unaffordable) even if there’s a mitzvah of yibum. We find similarly in the beraisa that based on the pasuk of v’dibru, beis din advises (insists) against an ill advised marriage despite the mitzvah (the example the beraisa gave of an ill advised marriage is to someone of a very different age, which will lead to marital discord
Good Shabbos
OK, I have a couple of unexpected “free” minutes, so I’ll address the way you learned the gemara.
The problem is, you’re reading something into the beraisa which simply isn’t there; the beraisa is referring to regular yibum, and to learn that it’s talking about multiple yevamos, with the objective to eliminate all but one, is pure speculation.
The Tur would also be completely out of context, as I already mentioned, and there’s no reason for him to expect us to understand his case to be that of multiple yevamos when the beraisa makes no hint of that.
Also, according to you, it’s perfectly acceptable to marry someone quite a bit younger, so why would age be a criterion for elimination?
One more thing – why does the beraisa say the issue is kettotah if the issue is finances?
The pshat I mentioned is the simple pshat, and it does not pose any of these difficulties.
DY -“Also, according to you, it’s perfectly acceptable to marry someone quite a bit younger, so why would age be a criterion for elimination?”
They aren’t eliminated; just recommended against only when you have more than one to choose.
That was the context I was referring to. I see at the end of your post that you agree that a large age difference can cause marital strife, so it seems that you agree to this basic point.
“One more thing – why does the beraisa say the issue is kettotah if the issue is finances?”
Kettoh means strife. In this case the strife is financial.
If you mean that finacial strain can lead to marital strife, I accept your point. Even if this was not your intention, I thought of this point over Shabbos (and I saw a Meiri who uses the term ketotah referring to the gemara on mem daled), and I retract this kasha.
“The pshat I mentioned is the simple pshat, and it does not pose any of these difficulties.
The kasha on mem daled is how can beis din allow an ill advised marriage (multiple wives – assumed in the kasha to be unaffordable) even if there’s a mitzvah of yibum. We find similarly in the beraisa that based on the pasuk of v’dibru, beis din advises (insists) against an ill advised marriage despite the mitzvah (the example the beraisa gave of an ill advised marriage is to someone of a very different age, which will lead to marital discord”
Ok, let’s say you could learn your P’shat that they use the Posuk to tell you that you aren’t allowed to do Yibum with older or younger women. My P’shat fits in so you don’t have to learn your way, but let’s say you want to. Where do you ever see you don’t have to be Mikayim Pru OORevu because of age difference? You want to say the Posuk throws it out of Yibum altogether, fine; but now take it and learn it by regular marriage -impossible. And you can’t say I’ll find someone else -this minute you are being Mevatel Pru OORevu. The same is true by the woman -this minute they aren’t being Mekayim L’sheves Yeetzoroh.
First, I will reiterate that your pshat does not fit in. The Meiri I mentioned, as well as the Ritva, both learn that the gemara on mem daled is asking from the beraisa as an analogy, not directly.
Of course he is not patur from p’ru ur’vu, but there’s no chiyuv to marry the first woman you meet even if it’s a horrible shidduch!
Now you know why Boaz said what Rus did was such a big chessed- marrying an older guy can cause marital strife and even so she wanted him. And in her case, not like nowadays it was Only chessed because e/o wanted to marry her.
I’m glad that we can agree, at least, that a large age gap can cause marital strife.
But in our generation they will sit aroung waiting in their twenties and thirties, not necessarily having s/o who definitely will marry them but as long as they won’t marry s/o older. Maybe the older guys aren’t Tzadikim like Boaz, but the girls aren’t like Rus either were e/o wants them or they would be married by 22!
I don’t think it’s fair to compare our generation to Rus and Boaz at all.
It’s also not realistic to expect a girl in her 20’s or 30’s to give up on a normal marriage and agree to marry someone who might be decades older than her.
Da’as Yochid, the Gemora is talking about a very serious age difference. Mestama, at the very least — 17-20 years.
mdd,
I assumed Health was as well.
Do they both say that the Braisa is talking in the case of 1 Meyavem and one lady or can the Braisa be talking only the case of multiple women?
They don’t specifically say; it can likely be talking about either case. (The beraisa happens to use loshon yochid).
The guy usually doesn’t care how young the girl is.
He should. Although he may need to be makpid on her ability to have children, why should he get involved in a marriage which can easily be filled with ketotah?
Ok, so at what point, acc. to you, does she have to settle on an older man before she is considered being Mevatel the Mitzva? 40,45,50?
Good question. I guess there’s some type of sliding scale, with a larger age discrepancy as she gets older (in which case a larger separation in years may not indicate as large a discrepancy in maturity as when she was younger).
I hold -by 22 she is Oiver because if there was s/o who wanted her -she would have found him in the last few years.
I think that’s way over the top.
DY –
What about those girls who are left without any shidduch due to the age gap making there not enough grooms for every girl? (I know they are working on solutions for the age gap, but even those solutions acknowledge even if it helps, until then the problem will persist.) Shouldn’t they marry a much older (or even previously married) man rather than stay single their entire lives, as the age gap will make some girls be?
shlishi,
There are no specific girls left without a shidduch, so the girls don’t look at it as if they’re stranded on a desert island with just one, older, man.
Whether or not a girl should take her “poor” odds into consideration is a personal decision, but there are other things to be compromised before age.
You mention divorcees, but you lump it together with age discrepancy. I wouldn’t.
I also think 22 (as mentioned by a different poster) is a ridiculously low age to be so desperate.
DY,
Whether they look at it like that or not, at the end of the day some girls won’t have any groom or husband. There will be no more guys left for them. And while your point of the order of what to compromise first is an interesting (and worthwhile) one, the age gap means that the sad fact is some girls no matter what won’t be able to get married (when the men run out), no matter if they even compromise everything.
So, yes, 22 is a bit early, and perhaps the more appropriate age is say 26-27 before a dose of reality needs to set it for the girls, but if we understand the age gap correctly, and if they don’t want to be left stranded to a life of being single, some of them will need to compromise both on the age issue and on the previously married issue. Both compromises will add more men to the pool for the girls who are stranded after the young guys are married.
If a guy and girl want to get married, it’s no one else’s business that he’s much older than her. No one’s forcing anyone to marry anyone else.
I know that nowadays girls start around 18 to look to get married- maybe you can be Melamed Zecus that they aren’t ready yet for marriage beforehand-so maybe they aren’t Oiver anything yet.
Do many singles abrogate their chiyuv to get married because they’re too picky? I think so, but I wouldn’t push them into what would likely be a bad marriage.
I know of an older single girl who on several occasions was close to getting engaged. She had reservations, and spoke, each time, to an adam gadol. She was not told to simply get married because she has a chiyuv! If she had a legitimate concern, the rov she spoke to told her not to marry him!
DY: sh’tikah k’hoda’ah. I presume you’ve accepted my points how this issue interacts with the age gap.
shlishi,
My viewpoint was already expressed earlier. To summarize: No specific girl is certain to not have a close-in-age shidduch, so whether the odds are against her or not, few girls will compromise on an important issue.
My follow-up comment, which you haven’t disputed, was that at a certain more advanced age (I guesstimated 26-27) the girls pool of available bochorim is considerable shrunk and she is at that point at risk of being left unmarried for life (per the age gap issue.) So at that age, girls will have to compromise on important issues.
And taking your viewpoint to its logical conclusion…
“No specific girl is certain to not have a close-in-age shidduch, so whether the odds are against her or not, few girls will compromise on an important issue.”
…you should likewise be arguing against NASI’s close-in-age (i.e. one or two years apart) shidduchim since, as you said, no specific girl is certain to be left out.
I am just being realistic; a 27 year old girl will most likely not be willing to marry a 45 year old man as long as she holds out some hope that she can still marry someone younger.
Don’t confuse this with NASI, which is directed at the societal issue, not an individual girl.
Health,
My comparison between a young girl getting married and a large age differential is quite valid, as is the story I mentioned. I’m making the point that rabbonim, who pasken everything according to S.A., will not advise one to enter into an ill advised marriage, despite p’ru ur’vu and lasheves.
If based on individual personalities, a particular 40 year old man is suitable for a 20 year old woman, I don’t see anything wrong with them getting married. But that would be highly unusual, since they’re from a different generation.
Standard advice from various gedolim is not to marry someone more than ten years apart (although I imagine that it expands a bit as they get older).
but the girls aren’t like Rus either were e/o wants them or they would be married by 22!
EXCUSE ME?!?!?
i didn’t read everything; i don’t have time right now, so maybe i’m taking this out of context – if i am, i’m sorry.
but, what are you talking about???? so happens that i dated almost 80 guys before i got married (most i should have never gone out with – my parents and i didn’t know how to do proper research in those days) and only 3 of those who i was willing to date again, said no to me, and out of that 3, 2 later wanted to go out with me a few years later. the 1 who didn’t want to go out again was going into business, and i stupidly (but honestly) said, “why would someone want to go into business – from what i understand, most people are dishonest in business”. understandably, he didn’t want to go out again.
i know many people who got married after 22 and married the person who was just right for them. i do know people who married someone 10 years older, some of the girls were 20 and some were 30, but in general, most people prefer to marry someone closer to their age – they have more in common and can understand each other better.
also, a woman, from my understanding, does NOT have a chiyuv to get married. if anything, it would solve more problems if guys would be willing to date girls a year or 2 older than them than if girls would marry a guy 10 years older. (i do know many girls who were older who did marry guys who were a bit younger than they were).
health, be reasonable. the girls also want to be happy and to find the things that they are looking for. just because they are older than 22 when they get married does not mean that they will not be able to have a nice-size family and find their equal in a husband.
if this has nothing to do with what you were saying, then just disregard this.
Btw, where did you hear this -from your husband, your friends or did you learn this in school?
okay. maybe i deserve this sarcastic comment – i didn’t learn it in a gemara. a 40 year old woman i know had asked a shaila (of some rav, i don’t know whom). anyways, i’ve always learned that it’s the guy who is supposed to look for the wife, as it’s not the way of the world for women to go pursuing men.
anyways, i did not have 80 guys lined up at one time – i was just like all the other posters here.
of course, both men and women should periodically re-evaluate what they are looking for and decide which areas may or may not be so important to them.
nowadays, when every few years is practically a new generation, a 15 year age gap is no small deal. No matter what age, most women i know are looking for companionship, that they feel comfortable with.
although many girls are desperate to get married, that doesn’t mean that they are desperate – they do want to be happily married. many would rather marry a previously divorced guy, someone from a different background than they previously were looking for, etc. before considering a huge age-gap.
health – why must a read every post before i decide to post? true, i may write something that has nothing to do with anything, so i’d look like a fool – but where did you hear that it’s forbidden to do so? from a friend? did you learn this in school? 😉
I am a Divorced Guy in his early 40’s and I am constantly set-up (by Shadchanim) with women 8-10 years younger than me. I will tell you that 19 out of 20 women in their early 30’s will not go out with me because of an 8 (or more) year age-gap. In my experience decisions about age-gap are almost never affected by how many guys are or aren’t available. Women are just not comfortable with the age-gap and they would prefer to continue to wait for a guy with a gap of less than 8 years. In my experience every single shidduch that I accepted with a closer age-gap, the girl agreed to go out with me. So the logical conclusion is that the age-gap is HUGE for Bais Yaakov girls. Someone posted about a non-jew. In those situations people meet and date without thinking about marriage necessarily so age gaps can proceed naturally. Large age-gaps are much, much more common in the non-jewish world. I know of many of them through work. They develop naturally. In the shidduch system, however, age is one of the most important factors.
I read in the news that a Goy who is 51 just got married to a 16 y.o. girl.
There’s a reason it was in the news. ?
I read in the news that a Goy who is 51 just got married to a 16 y.o. girl.
there are people called sugar daddies for a reason (a 20 year old girl marrying an 80 year old guy)
oh and to further prove my point he’s an actor
To all:
As a side note, I read in the news that a Goy who is 51 just got married to a 16 y.o. girl. And Goyim have no Chiyuv to get married!
And we want to base our decisions on what the goyim do why?
The case I saw in the papers, is were they have mutual feelings towards each other and mutually agreed to get married.
an actor and a model having mutual feelings for each other, it just doesn’t strike me to be that way, and it seems like the reason they got married is because she looks good and he has money which I still think is the definition of a sugar daddy
look up the wiki definition of sugar daddy
as far as I know the only time i heard sugar daddy is when i went for a mani. its a very popular color…..does that have anything to do with this.
yes it does.
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