Who says above knee osur

I’m sure Rav Falk gives plenty of sources in Oz V’hodor Levusha on this topic. And whilst I’m not sure I would agree with everything he says, covering the form of the legs from the knees up is absolutely non-negotiable. And that means with a skirt.

I am pretty sure that there was another thread on this topic where the sources were discussed.

In short (no pun intended), covering until the knee is a gemara in Brochos and is required regardless of what people do (although a poster last time disputed this). Wearing pants or tights above the knee (and not covering it with a skirt) is a matter of Das Yehudis. This means the tznius standards of the frum women in your community.

There are two broad types of questions that might be asked on this topic:

1. What should I do? How should I dress? What is required of me? What is ideal for me?

2. What should we do about the broad “crisis”? How do I control others’ behavior? How come everyone else dresses like either a Muslim or a harlot?

The first line of questioning is not only ideal but required of all Jews. The second line of questioning is very tricky. It is possible for someone to ask these questions with altruistic motives, in which case they are only USUALLY wrong for doing so, but often times they arise out of catty pettiness in which it is difficult to envision it ever being okay.

Oomis, I was merely trying to point out why a snowsuit might be permitted for certain situations, such as skiing. In no way do I agree that that means that wearing non form-showing trousers is therefore also permitted. And nor do I mean that a girl should decide she can take up skiing as a regular hobby or sport so she can wear a snowsuit.

It’s like the heter with showing hair at the front – a specific ruling was given by R’ Moshe for a very specific sheila and it has somehow been twisted to become a worldwide ‘accepted’ ruling.

A girl who respected herself and the image she gives across would not even ask questions about ‘who says that this is assur?’ – as FNY said, this comes from pettiness.

It’s like the heter with showing hair at the front – a specific ruling was given by R’ Moshe for a very specific sheila and it has somehow been twisted to become a worldwide ‘accepted’ ruling.

IIRC, he doesn’t write that context into the teshuvah. However, he does acknowledge that he’s arguing with the Chasam Sofer, and worse, people somehow use it to expose a lot more hair than he ever allowed.

Tefach means area, but it seems that many women think it’s linear. And they’re makpid on the Chazon Ish’s shiur.

This all depends on whether one views the examples of Daas Yehudis mentioned in the Mishna as fixed or as something that can change depending on the tznius standard of frum women in each time and place.

If they are fixed, then Reb Moshe’s disagreement with the Chasam Sofer is limited to what Reb Moshe was specifically mattir. If, however, Daas Yehudis is different depending on the time and place, then once one argues on the Chasam Sofer (who held that every hair must be covered) there is no limiting principle beyond substantial coverage and the norms of the community.

Like I said earlier, I’m sure Rav Falk cites sources in his book.