Who Keeps the Wife Who Was Married Twice?

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  • #2312190
    ujm
    Participant

    A woman remarries. With the coming of Moshiach which husband will keep her after Techiyas Hameisim?

    What differences, if any, would it make if it involved the following different scenarios:

    1. She’s married to her first husband for a few months, becomes an almana and remarries. She lives with her second husband for 75 years before passing.

    2. She’s married to her first husband for 75 years and he passes. She remarries to her second husband and passes away a few months later.

    3. She’s married to her first husband, he divorces her and she gets remarried.

    A potential additional factor is that she has children with only one of the two husbands (either the first or the second; either the one she was married to for only a few months or the one she was married to for decades.) Seemingly this factor doesn’t make a legal/halachic distinction, but feel free to disagree if you have sources to do so.

    In the third scenario I would imagine everyone agrees her second husband keeps her after Techiyas Hameisim. If anyone believes otherwise, please explain.

    The first two scenarios are essentially the same, on a legal (halachic) basis. The number of years (or months) of her marriages before one (or both) of the spouses passes away makes no halachic distinction.

    Who will she be married to?

    Your thoughts, please. (Halachic; not boich svaras.)

    #2312382
    Ishpurim
    Participant

    I think Rav Ftiha discusses this paradox but I dont remember where. She probably is single because מיתת הבעל מתיר .

    #2312408
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    It’s a big question that has been brought up many times to poskim.

    Many women didn’t want to remarry because they were worried that they would be stuck with their second husband in techias hameisim.

    I think there are varying teshuvos on the topic without one single answer. It is a matter of debate.

    Rabbi Avrohom Gerlitzky wrote about his at length in his sefer ימות המשיח בהלכה.

    Here is a section:
    אבל עי’ בשו”ת מצב הישר סי’ ז (ווילנא תרמ”א) אודות אשה שהיתה נשואה לבעל מופלג בתורה ויר”ש ושבק חיים ומונעת א”ע להנשא עוד הפעם מפני שמתפחדת שכשנזכה לתחיית המתים שלא תחזור אז לבעלה הראשון, והשיב שמצינו בזוה”ק בראשית (כא, ב) מכאן [אוליפנא] נוקבא דאתנסיבת בתרין בההוא עלמא אהדרת לקדמאה וכו’, ופי’ באמרי בינה בהגליון שם: פי’ שנשאת לב’ אנשים זה אחר זה חוזרת לעתיד לבעלה הראשון עכ”ל, וכן הבין גדול קדמון בספרו מפתחות הזהר (בענין זיווג וחבור חלק א’) שכתב אשה שנשאת לשנים חוזרת לראשון לעוה”ב.

    והקשה שם שהרי יש לאו לחזור לאשתו הראשונה אחר שנשאת לשני? והאריך שם לתרץ דמצוה זו אכן לא תתקיים לע”ל, אבל קשה לתרץ כן.

    ובשו”ת רב פעלים ח”ב סוד ישרים סי’ ב כתב להמחבר אודות תשובה זו ושקו”ט בכ”ז בארוכה, ובנוגע לקושייתו שהרי יש איסור לחזור לבעל הראשון אחר שנשאת לאחר? תירץ דכיון שהגוף שיעמוד אחר תחיית המתים הוא גוף חדש, לכן כל קשר וזיקה שהי’ בין הגופים קודם מותם הרי הוא בטל והוה כנישואים ראשונים. וזהו רק בדברים שהם מצד הגוף אבל החיבור מצד הנפש אינו מתבטל אחר המיתה כי בנפש אין שום שינוי בין קודם מיתה ללאחר מיתה, ומצד הנפש ראוי שתתחבר עם בעלה הראשון, עיי”ש (וכתב דכ”ז לא איירי אלא כשמת, אבל אם נתגרשה מבעלה הראשון ודאי נתבטל הקשר). וראה לעיל סי’ נט שהובא זה, עיי”ש בארוכה.

    דאי נימא כדבריו דבתחיית המתים אמרינן דפנים חדשות באו לכאן בודאי לכו”ע יצטרכו לקידושין, כיון דמצד הגוף אין זו אותה האשה, וכמו שכתב שם [אף דאכתי י”ל כאופן הא’ שההיתר של האשה בא בדרך ממילא], ומ”מ סב”ל להזהר שחוזרת לבעלה הראשון מצד נשמתם.

    וראה לעיל סי’ נט-ס שמצינו דעות בזה אם בתחיית המתים אכן אמרינן פנים חדשות באו לכאן או לא. ובכללות נתבאר די”ל שזה תלוי בהמבואר בלקוטי שיחות חי”ח פ’ חוקת (ב) סעי’ י שכותב דבאופן התחי’ של תחיית המתים אפשר לומר בב’ אופנים: א) יישאר משהו בגוף ממציאותו הראשונה בעוה”ז, רק שיתוסף לכך תוספת והתחדשות בבנין הגוף. ב) תחה”מ תהיה באופן של התחדשות הגוף בכל הפרטים, ולא יישאר מאומה ממציאותו הראשונה של הגוף בעוה”ז, ומבאר שם שזהו פלוגתת המד”ר והזהר עם הפרקי דר”א פל”ד, עיי”ש בארוכה, דאי נימא כהדיעה דלא הוה פנים חדשות י”ל דאי”צ לקידושין.

    ובענף יוסף (בעין יעקב) סנהדרין ר”פ חלק הביא מספר הנצחון דסב”ל שתשוב לבעלה השני כי מיתת בעל הראשון הוה כגירושין וכמו שבגירושין יש איסור לחזור לבעל הראשון אחרי שנשאת לשני כן הוא באלמנה שנשאת,[10] דלפי דעה זו הי’ אפ”ל ג”כ שאי”צ קידושין מהאחרון, כיון דלדיעה זו משמע דלא סב”ל דפנים חדשות באו לכאן, אבל לאידך גיסא הרי דיעה זו סב”ל דמיתה כגירושין כנ”ל. וי”ל דאין זה משום דסב”ל דמעשה המיתה הוה כגירושין ולכן יש איסור להחזירה, אלא דמעשה הקידושין והנישואין להשני הוה כגירושין, וכפי שנת’ לעיל דזה בודאי מפקיע אישות של הראשון, וא”כ י”ל דגם דיעה זו סב”ל כאופן הא’, וא”כ שפיר י”ל דאי”צ קידושין מהאחרון. וראה שו”ת גנזי יוסף סי’ ק”כ ונחלת בנימין ע’ פב.

    #2312411
    ujm
    Participant

    Ishpurim: Regarding מיתת הבעל מתיר, are you claiming that means that every wife in the world will be single after Techiyas Hameisim?

    And what if the wife passed away *before* her final husband?

    #2312420
    Shazsheri
    Participant

    Wonderful, thought-provoking question. מי יתן that the choshuve avreichim of this forum would forever cease to argue about meshugas like “Biden vs. Trump” or “Zionists vs. Satmar” or “Yeshivish vs. YU” or “Lace-top sheitels” and all the other דברים העומדים ברומו של עולם (which, to an עם הארץ such as a chiropractor, or an inspirational speaker, or a standard American 2nd-year maggid shiur, or a chassidishe Rebbe, are not only important, but crucial עיקרים of the Jewish faith), and people would begin to engage in דברי אלקים חיים. Learning torah is fun!

    The short answer to your question is obviously לכשיחיו נחכם להן לכשיבוא משה רבינו עמהם. But that’s booooring lol. So let’s get started!

    The primary assumptions underlying your questions are A) The assumption that there will be a מושג of אשת איש during the time of תחיית המתים. (R’ Saadya Gaon says that people will get married after תחיית המתים) B) The assumption that if A is true, it follows that a woman will still be considered to be married to her previous husband and won’t require another קידושין. Whether or not these are true depends on the following. (Absolutely not an exhaustive list):

    1) Will מצוות be בטילות לעתיד לבא?
    (נדה דף סא)

    2) If yes, does this mean that מצוות will be בטילות בזמן תחיית המתים or does it mean simply that a מת is פטור from מצוות while he is dead? ( מחלוקת between תוס׳ אויפן ארט (unless you really want to kvetch a different meaning into it like the Maharatz Chayes says there הרבה יש לפלפל) and the רשב״א in ברכות by אין בין ימות המשיח וכו׳)

    3) If, in #2, we assume like the former tzad, does this mean that even the ז׳ מצוות בני נח will be בטל? (Haven’t seen this discussed, but it seems like an obvious kler. Because even קודם מתן תורה there was a מושג of אישות.)

    3) If, in #2, we assume like the former tzad, does this mean simply that the commandments will be בטלות or that even the institutions, i.e. אישות, שליחות, בעלות, קניינים, נדרים, הקדשות, etc. will be בטל? (I have tremendous toirah on this inyan but haven’t seen it discussed. It’s תלוי on many, many, many different inyonim all over the תושבע״פ ואכ״מ והמשכיל יבין והחדל יחדל)

    3) If there will be a מושג of א״א during זמן תחיית המתים, will a woman who is revived be still married to her husband from prior or will she require a new קידושין? (This a tremendous inyan and is one of the deepest inyonim in סדר נשים and יבמות. There’s a ירושלמי that the גדולי אחרונים are very busy with. Check out Reb Meir Simcha in הלכות גירושין over there by מת בתוך י״ב חדש.)

    4) If you want, you could also קריך אריין in the חקירה that the roshei yeshiva are into about how מיתת הבעל is מתיר. Could be it’s נוגע to #3. Reb shimon talks abt it in שערי יושר ע״ש.

    אשרי מחכה ויגיע

    #2312425
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Other questions like this include gilgulim. If only one of the two come back as a gilgul, then that also adds another spouse to the mix.

    I’ve heard that the neshama splits, which would answer all of those.

    #2312632

    Why not spend your time helping widows and widowers, and others, to find shiduchim b’olam haze instead of speculating? The only issue l’maase I see here is that some widows were reluctant to re-marry to 2nd husbands who were not at the level if their first ones. If anyone here is such a lady, please press on. If you are a bachelor wooing such a lady, the solution is simple – be a better mench… Although gemora warns about second marriages – not all etzavim shavim, four people in bed, etc

    #2312695

    What about a katlanis who had a zechus to be married to three tzaddikim? Do they form a beis din and vote on her fate?

    #2312696

    a relevant story is about widow of R Eleizer who first kept his body in the attic for years and then refused to marry Rebbi – not because Rebbi was not learned enough, but because he did not do enough chesed comparing with her first hubsand.

    #2312713
    ujm
    Participant

    <i>”Many women didn’t want to remarry because they were worried that they would be stuck with their second husband in techias hameisim.

    I think there are varying teshuvos on the topic without one single answer. It is a matter of debate.”</i>

    Menachem: Would you agree that both sides of the debate, including those that say the wife goes to her second husband, would agree it is best for the wife to remarry after becoming an almana (regardless if she became an almana young or old)?

    #2312966
    pure yiddishkeit
    Participant

    I may be mistaken but I seem to remember that the Chasam Sofer writes that a woman who remarries automatically is cutting her connection to her first husband (someone correct me if i’m wrong).
    Based on that I’d assume that she remains with her second husband, but on the other hand, there are those that write that the zivug as they call it “bashert” (arba’im yom etc), is the first one, and the “zivug kasha kekriyat yam suf” goes on a zivug sheni, which is why it is so hard, because there is no kodem yetziyat havlad considered, rather it is reliant on the zechutim of the person, so in that case it would seem that the first one is the one that the woman would go back to.
    As others wrote above, it is a very heavily debated topic in the Poskim, and the answer for now is probably- even though not so exciting, but – teiku.

    #2312990
    ujm
    Participant

    AAQ: This issue certainly does have current implications for the wife/future wife. She may have a strong preference who she wants to be married to after Techiyas Hameisim. This is a valid concern.

    #2312754

    > would agree it is best for the wife to remarry after becoming an almana

    I think halakha directs men to remarry, and at the same time assumes that the woman would like to be married. I don’t know whether halakha taki directs women to look for another husband.

    #2312774
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Menachem: Would you agree that both sides of the debate, including those that say the wife goes to her second husband, would agree it is best for the wife to remarry after becoming an almana (regardless if she became an almana young or old)?

    I have no idea, but that does make sense.
    That’s probably why the poskim were trying to find a hetter to go back to the first husband after תחה”מ, so that she should feel better about getting remarried.

    #2312997
    Lostspark
    Participant

    Hakatan:

    According to shaar hagilgulim a wife returns with her husband to be his bashert in gilgul.

    #2313116

    > She may have a strong preference who she wants to be married to after Techiyas Hameisim.
    Lost > According to shaar hagilgulim

    Ok, so she might let Hashem know of her preferences when she davens. Why are you spending your energy on figuring out who will be whose wife in olam habo. In this world, halakha presumes that a woman prefers someone to bring (uncooked) food into the house and say kiddush for her. Use your energy on that. Convince your wives to do chesed and add another one.

    #2313528
    Jude
    Participant

    I have a different, but related question. What if a person, after resurrection, does not want to be married to any spouse that he or she had in the previous life: can they marry someone completely new?

    #2313731
    raerae
    Participant

    I think she gets to pick

    #2313845
    Ishpurim
    Participant

    A little more from me. Sifrei Musar say a woman is the rib of her husband while alive . She can return as a rib to multiple men. Anyway thanks for correcting me. I knew it was a Baghdadi.

    #2313902
    Happy new year
    Participant

    This whole discussion mixes Torah with Ruchniyus.
    They are mutually exclusive and NOT compatible.

    And this discussion is 100% perfect proof.

    We, Yisrael, follow the Torah. Not Ruchniyus.

    The Tedokim were right about this one.

    #2314147
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    This whole discussion mixes Torah with Ruchniyus.
    They are mutually exclusive and NOT compatible…
    We, Yisrael, follow the Torah. Not Ruchniyus.
    The Tedokim were right about this one.

    Huh? What’s any of this supposed to mean?

    #2314798
    Happy new year
    Participant

    2 points.
    First, Misah matirs even in this life, certainly after Tchias haMesim. The ONLY question would possibly be by Yibum, if the first brother has tchiya before she and 2nd brother dies. Nothing was matir her, so perhaps you could ask by yibum.

    But your whole question is based on the wrong assumption that there will be marriage at that time.
    The entire purpose of marriage is to have children, and the entire purpose of having children is for continuity of life. In the time of Tchias haMesim, and Bila haMaves laNetzach, there will be no death, and therefore no continuity of life.
    (Really, if there is no death, there is no life, as life is defined by death, but that’s a separate point).

    A proof to this is that which chazal say, bo’u vnachzik tovah la’avosenu, we should appreciate our ancestors who sinned by the Golden Calf, because if not for that, they never would have died, and we would never be born.

    No death, no children. No children, no marriage.

    #2314961
    ujm
    Participant

    Happy New Year: If the wife dies before the husband, she was never matir.

    #2314974
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I like happy new year’s answer

    Makes a lot of sense

    #2315056
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I don’t think ujm gets what happy new year is saying

    Her מיתה is מתיר

    Bring a case not like that

    #2315090
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Happy new year,

    But your whole question is based on the wrong assumption that there will be marriage at that time.

    What’s your source for this?

    Based on the teshuvos that I quoted, there will be marriage during תחיית המתים, and I have never seen otherwise.

    Re your proof from the Gemara (Avoda Zora 5a) about the עגל: The Gemara concludes there that they would have children, but since they would live forever, the children would have no importance, because they would always be compared to the greatness of their parents’ generation.

    #2315091
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Happy new year,

    I found a bunch of sources discussing marriage during תחיית המתים:

    Google search:
    ימות המשיח בהלכה חלק א׳ – סימן סו׃ קידושין אחר תחיית המתים

    Should take you to the siman from Rabbi Avrohom Gerlitzky’s ימות המשיח בהלכה.

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