- This topic has 115 replies, 41 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Boys, please read:
Self esteem: do yourself a favor and check the list for the degel motzes membership. You will see that Rav Auerbach’s name is NOT on it. Again he left degel hatorah. He doesn’t have any say in it. Because he leads peleg a rival party.
Sadigur Rebbe, I did and Rav Auerbach is still on the Moetzes the same as the last 20 years.
Rubashkin.
NC -“Rubashkin.”
I think he’s a Godol in Achdus. All the others mentioned are Gedolim in their own right.
I personally think that the most Chushuv in our generation is the Kaliver Rebbe.
He spoke in English to give Hakoras Hatov to Pres. Trump!Klal Yisroel hasn’t had a single leader for 1800 years.
So the criteria for a Gadol now is whoever approves of Trump in English?
I always suspected some kind of democratic process in the decision of who to place on the gedolim pedestal, including public opinion, but I never knew the electoral college was involved.
“So the criteria for a Gadol now is whoever approves of Trump in English?”
Probably not since I’m not sure any chashuve Rav will “approve” of the Trumpkopf in English, Yiddish or Mandarin…..maybe an occasional nod of the Shtreimlach in his direction for a particular policy decision (e.g. designating Chulent as the National Comfort Food”) but there is any oxymoron about being a “gadol” and giving the Trumpkopf a blanket endorsement. in any languagethis is a very important issue to resolve. if aliens land on route 59 in monsey tomorrow and say take me to your leader, we will look very foolish in their eyes as we stumble and fumble for his name and address.
In Israeli Batei midrash they are talking about Rabbi Edelstein. Supposedly Rav Shteinman asked him to take over too
lebedik yankel – What was the position of Rav Shteinman zt’l that Rav Edelstein shlita has taken over?
perhaps rav dov lior shlita
I don’t understand this talk of “taking over.” Take over what? The Gimmel political party? Degel? That’s not the same as the Leader of Klal Yisroel. Klal Yisroel is, unfortunately, not a united group. And we certainly do not all follow one person. Everybody has their own mesora, their own rabbonim, and neither Rav Shteinman nor any other Gadol has ever claimed authority over all of Klal Yisroel.
To benignuma
Well said…all of the rabbonim mentioned earlier in this thread have their own following and will continue to do so. On particular issues, one or another may emerge as the “leader” of the klal but as you note, that may be for purposes of a transient issue or a psak on a global emerging issue. If a Rav has to “claim” leadership, which as you say none have historically done, more likely than not he will be a leader without many followers.
benignuman, you never heard Rashkbehag applied to contemporary Gedolim?
I voted for Grand Rabbi Zalman Leib of Satmar.
Rav Moshe Feinstein was the Rashkbehag, as was Rav Shach and Rav Elyashiv.
Closest thing I got to a definition of Gadol: the guy/s who make/s the decision re: who will speak at the siyum hashas and the seating arrangements on the dais.
on a serious note, if one were to translate lehavdil the three branches of government into Judaism, legislative powers are from Sinai, rabbonim (and/or cohanim) are the judiciary, but who is the executive? we don’t have a king anymore. I think it’s the involved laypersons. or at least it should be. separation of powers is a Jewish concept; chashmonaim were punished for not having it.
Godolhador -” but there is any oxymoron about being a “gadol” and giving the Trumpkopf a blanket endorsement. in any language”
And you think calling yourself “GODOLHADORAH” on YWN, makes you one?!?
FNY -“So the criteria for a Gadol now is whoever approves of Trump in English?”
It’s very sad that you didn’t begin to understand my point!
Or, it’s very sad that you didn’t begin to understand mine. If it helps, I didn’t expect you too, so I was already sad before I wrote it.
Rubashkin ?
Joseph, I have certainly heard people use that term as an honorific for contemporary Gedolim in my lifetime. However, I do not think I have ever heard anyone use the term in its literal sense. Rav Moshe was widely accepted as the Torah authority for the yeshivish velt in the United States. But he was not accepted as such an authority by the Chassidishe velt or even the Yeshivish in E”Y.
The same is true of Rav Shach (who was never really treated as a halachic authority) and Rav Elyashiv. Their sphere’s of authority were limited to certain subsets of Torah Jewry.
Even the Chofetz Chaim, who was universally revered as a tzaddik yesod olam, was not viewed as an authority by all Torah Jews. Even Rabbeinu Gershom Meor Hagolah, was not really a Rashkebahag because he was not followed in the Mizrachi world.
Health…..yes, it does. ….that’s the greatness of the internet
A source for a fact that everyone already knows, is the Rambam in his Hakdamah to the Mishneh Torah where he says that there has not been a central authority since the compilation of the Gemara. He says that every Chochom in each respective city has the authority to pasken according to the Gemara as he deems proper.
Perhaps the title of the thread should be adapted to what its intent really was:
Who will be the new leader for the chareidi litvhish/yeshivish population of E”Y (which was what R’ Shteinman Z”L was)?
That eliminates Rubashkin, either of the Satmar Rebbes, R’ Dovid Feinstein (all living in the US, only one is Litvish) and R’ Lior (not chareidi). Sorry your votes were wasted. At least you didn’t have to get a photo ID.benignuman, just as you see the appellation Rashkbehag when applied to contemporary gedolim as not being literal, why can’t you see a discussion (and title) such as this thread in the same light?
Im still in the running!
“Rav Moshe was widely accepted as the Torah authority for the yeshivish velt in the United States. But he was not accepted as such an authority by the Chassidishe velt or even the Yeshivish in E”Y.”
Yes, yes… To say what should have gone without saying, this thread is OBVIOUSLY talking about who the next gadol will be for the Litvish velt that followed HaRav Shteinman. I don’t really see how anyone managed to be confused by that.
As far as Rav Moshe, the yeshivish in Eretz Yisroel certainly did consider him to be the Rashkbehag.
On Rav Moshe as Rashkebehag. I don’t mean that the Yeshivish in E”Y never used the term with regard to Rav Moshe and they certainly revered him as a tzaddik and talmud chochom. But Rav Moshe actively resisted paskening for E”Y, and practically speaking his psak was not followed on many, many issues in E”Y.
You will not find the phrase “posek hador” used anywhere in any meaningful way. The Tzitz Eliezer uses it all over the place in his titles, and either the Teshuvos Maharshal writes it among the titles to the Ramah, or the Teshuvos Ramah about the Maharshal. I forget. But in any case, the title connotes no halachic status.
Funny, Joseph. Because the power of psak is real (like lehavdil, the judiciary) whereas the “gadol hador’s” power is undefined, illusory, unenforceable, without clear precedent, comes from a chassidish place,
So a “posek hador” if he exists would have real power. The term “gadol hador” is mostly meaningless.Rav Moshe isn’t always the final word in America either. Roshei Yeshiva and Poskim, such as Rav Hutner, Rav Eli Meyer Bloch of Telz, the Debreciner Rav, the Chelkas Yaakov and others, sided with the Satmar Rebbe over Rav Moshe regarding the obligatory size of a mechitzah in a shul, and/or the permissibility of artificial insemination, which were the two big disagreements that those Gedoim had in halacha. It was indeed Rav Hutner who approached the Satmar Rav asking him to write a refutation to Rav Moshe’s psak about the Mechitzos.
Joseph,
Two reasons: 1. I think in recent years people have started to take the “leader of Klal Yisroel” idea too literally. As if there was an actual rabbinic position with that title (like the Naasi in Mishnaic times).
2. Properly understood the question is non-sensical. The authority or authorities of the yeshivishe velt come about organically. There is no appointing body, no formal vote, no particular criteria. You can’t really ask the question as if there can be an immediate answer. You just need to look around after a while and see who the rabbonim you follow defer to.
To bring my point home. I did not think Rav Shteinman tz”l was the “Leader of Klal Yisroel.” I saw large segments of the Yishivish velt not deferring to him. And I did not get the impression that people viewed him as a halachic authority.
Joseph,
You are really confusing “Manhig haDor” with ‘Posek Hador’. They are two separate issues.
Joseph, I did not mean to imply that Rav Moshe was followed on all matters by all Yeshivish people in the United States. But his psak on various issues (especially new ones) were followed the vast majority of the time. And when it came to public halachic issues he was followed all of the time in his later years in the US. He was not similarly followed in Eretz Yisroel
“Rav Moshe isn’t always the final word in America either. Roshei Yeshiva and Poskim, such as Rav Hutner, Rav Eli Meyer Bloch of Telz, the Debreciner Rav, the Chelkas Yaakov and others, sided with the Satmar Rebbe over Rav Moshe regarding the obligatory size of a mechitzah in a shul”
Yet we stuck with Reb Moshe’s psak. That whole example just provides more evidence that he was the final word in America, even when other respected rabbis disagreed.
Beni: “To bring my point home. I did not think Rav Shteinman tz”l was the “Leader of Klal Yisroel.” I saw large segments of the Yishivish velt not deferring to him. And I did not get the impression that people viewed him as a halachic authority.”
I didn’t have the guts to say this, but that’s kind of what I thought too. I don’t really know enough about the society in Israel, but it sure seemed like Rav Kanievsky was always the more prominent posek.
If not Rav Moshe, Z’TL, how about the new Whatshisnamme Rebbe, the young “Rav” who was megayer by the Vaad of Queens and immediately started his own chassidus. He clearly has “leadership” aspirations.
if one were to translate lehavdil the three branches of government into Judaism
On what basis?
“I saw large segments of the Yishivish velt not deferring to him.”
Many people did not defer to Moshe Rabbeinu too. He was even accused of gezel and arayos by large segments of klal yisroel.
I thaught we are not supposed to compare tzadikim thats first. Ssecond every sect of judiasm has there own gadol hador therethere will never e an agreement till moshiach comes.
there doesn’t have to be one leader
that’s a new conceptRashi wasn’t the universally accepted Godol Hador of his day?
I don’t think Rashi was universally accepted as The Godol Hador. I think he was the leader of Ashkenaz Jewry (although I cannot think of any particular well known psak or decision of Rashi that was accepted by all of Ashkenaz over the disagreement of other Rabbonim). But I don’t think Rashi was considered the Godol Hador in the Sephardic and Middle Eastern lands, that was the Rif.
Randomex:
“if one were to translate lehavdil the three branches of government into Judaism
On what basis?”
On the basis that these three powers exist in all law-based institutions. Being that yiddishkeit is a law based institution, it has at least those three powers. The question is, how are they divided? The Torah divides between Kehuna, Melucha, Nevius, and Rabbanus with distinct rules for each.
Who is the executive branch now that we have no king?
I think it is an important question.(I found it amusing that Wikipedia’s article on “separation of powers”
begins with “The separation of powers, often imprecisely and metonymically
used interchangeably with the trias politica principle,” and yet “trias politica”
on Wikipedia redirects to the article on separation of powers.”)Why do you think “separation of powers is a Jewish concept?”
If I’m not mistaken, our kings had all 3 powers.
The Chashmona’im were punished for taking the throne despite not being
of the royal family. You’ll have to find another source to support that idea.Can there be an executive without a state?
(What did you mean by “legislative powers are from Sinai”
and by “involved laypersons?”)There are four institutions in Judaism: the political leadership (according to Rav Kook anyone the people choose to be their political leader whether he is a hereditary monarch or an elected prime minister), the Nevi’im, the judicial system ( Sanhedrin – in the plural) and the Bet haMikdash.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.