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How was his f-i-l able to live before Reb Elchonon married his daughter? I don’t mean this facetiously but isn’t it possible that the f-i-l was at an advanced age and just happened to die at that time?
To answer the first question, maybe so that he could support his R’ Yitzchak Elchonon in the future, and maybe because his time wasn’t yet up.
To answer your second question, of course anything’s possible, a story isn’t an iron-clad proof. The timing was pretty good though, and nobody is creating a brand new idea, that Torah is “eitz chaim hee lamachazikim bah” (a tree of life for those who support it)* from a story. Rather, the story fits right in with and illustrates this basic concept in Yiddishkeit.
*Yes, I know that’s a drash, and the simple pshat is “for those who grasp onto it”.
Bear, twisting the facts as usual? The British got the mandate from the League of Nations to create a Jewish state there!!
Btw, an Arab state would never pay to keep all those Chareidim in kollel forever.
Stop the vile Brisk-Satmar-inspired propaganda!
“Btw, an Arab state would never pay to keep all those Chareidim in kollel forever.”
At best they would extort money from other yidden to allow them to stay as beggars (Dhimma), and let them be as a source of income. At worst they would line them up and shoot (gas chambers are so 20th century), after giving the women over to the fighters as prizes until they are “used up” (like the Tutsis).
mdd: 1) The United Nations, not the League of Nations, gave the mandate for a State. 2) The Arabs, like the Turks before never did, would not attempt to draft the Yidden.
Lit.KJ., Eretz Yisroel was a part of the Ottoman Empire before the WWI. After that war the League gave a mandate to the British Empire. The were supposed to help build a Jewish state there. That was the mandate.
Secondly, for the n-th time, the Arabs would have almost all of the Chareidim working. No subsidies from the government. Period.
They would not draft the Jews as they consider them unworthy. Btw, Iran does!!
The League gave the British a mandate to administer Palestine. The League never told Britain to create a Jewish state (as you said.) The British later issued the Balfour Declaration to that effect on their own volition (after Zionist lobbying the British government), not based on a League mandate. The U.N. authorized a Jewish state.
I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind thinks that Jews are safer without a Jewish land they can call their own. Theyre just fatalists and think if Jews are meant to suffer and be killed, so be it. Thats not Hishtadlus. Like standing in front of a racing car while saying Tehillim. Not wise.
I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind thinks that Jews are safer without a Jewish land they can call their own.
And I find it hard to believe that anyone in their right mind thinks that Jews are safest (b’derech hateva) in Israel with an almost nuclear Iran wanting to wipe out Sonei Yisrael.
I think Jews would have been much safer had the idea of an independent state, as opposed to a homeland, not came about. If the Balfour Declaration would have been interpreted that way, something could have been worked out with the Arabs, who really did not mind Jews until the tzioinim came along and decided that land they bought gave them sovereign rights.
While I think Jacob de Haan HY”D was a strange fellow who was not capable of doing very much, the tzioinim so feared the possibility of someone negotiating for a peaceful Jewish enclave under foreign rule that they killed him.
That being said, I favor national service for charedim, in a charedi framework that is open to all.
We will be the worst nightmare for the tzioinim once we truly enter their society and become as productive as we are in chutz la’aretz. (Sorry, Zdad – we are not all on welfare, and some of us employ plenty of less frum Jews including veterans of the IDF who left the tzioini paradise for the US and Canada.) Since the real extremists will not enter, they’ll be marginalized and the medine, if it lasts much longer, will see a huge wave of chazara betshuva as those who are not leftists learn what Torah is really about.
Then, it will either be medina ke’halacha (NOT medinat halacha as that is for Moshiach) – or halcha hamedina. Halcha hamedina could mean a binational one-man, one-vote state where the remaining chilonim would pack up and leave, as most Jews would care about living in Eretz Yisroel rather than pretending to run medinat “Israel.”
And this is why I expect the status quo to continue, until Moshiach comes or Reb Yoilish’s prediction of a peaceful dismantlement comes to pass.
The actions of a band of RZ baryoinim at the Kosel is what caused the riots in 1929. That decent sheikh and some of the decent Arabs who had lived in peace with the Old Yishuv yidden in Chevron could not control the hordes who were already confused by the tzioinim and chose to follow radicals rather than moderates. They were misled to believe that the tzionim had designs on the mosque, and they reacted accordingly.
I don’t want to get involved in the hashkafic issues here but just to point out a factual inaccuracy – Gateshead Kollel has not been around for anywhere near a Century let alone passed it. 65 years is nearer the mark.
R’ Dovid Dryan set up Gateshead Yeshiva, not Kollel. The Kollel is post-war and Rav Dessler was the one and only Rosh Kollel they have ever had (they have a committee now). I actually know the grandson of one of the original parnesim of the kollel.
Let’s even say for arguments sake that you’re right and it was opened in the 20’s that’s still less than the 100+ years you originally claimed:
gateshead koillel in england has definitely passed a century.
Toi, regarding Chevron – I have a bit of a connection and so know a bit about it. My Great uncle was a talmid there at the time, and he happened to be sick the weekend of the massacre, at home with his family in Yerushalayim. His fellow students were murdered.
There is clear, testimonial and documentary evidence that the Chevron Massacre was incited and initiated as part of a campaign by Haj Amin Al Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and perhaps the most anti-Semitic Arab leader in history. He was a Jew hater before he was against Zionists. He spent the War in Berlin as a guest of Hitler (Y’SH) and personally mobilized the SS Bosnian Muslim Division. His rhetoric is filled with Jew hatred. He hired Nazi fugitives to train and lead Muslim irregulars after the war.
Zionism was established by 1898. No doubt the Mufti’s hatred was egged by Zionism.
So, Eisav soneh es Yaakov only applies to Charedim, like Weberman, Rubashkin, etc. But when it comes to Zionists, then the reason why the arabs hate us is because of the Zionists??
It’s really sad when you read comments here from people who clearly could use some proper education in the subject and not the bits and pieces they pick up in yeshivah.
I agree with you truthsharer 100%. It’s sad to see how many people here seem to forget the basics that we’re taught in Tanach and in our history. Akuperma goes on and on in every single post on this site about how wonderful the arabs are to us. It actually scares me that someone can actually believe some of the things he’s posted. The facts of our history as a people show that we cannot rely on the benefocence of the nations of the world.
We all know that it’s Hashem that will protect us but we must still do our hishtadlus to protect ourselves in a realistic way. We’re not allowed to play a game of putting our lives in the hands of the arabs, knowing full well that they would murder every last one of us but then say that Hashem will protect us. Purim is coming up and we see that the Jewish people actually had to do their hishtadlus to survive & win.
The arabs (and all anti-Jewish people) hate us because we are Jewish, NOT because of zionism or anything else we do. That’s the oldest & saddest thing from the Jewish people over the centuries – the ones who blame ourselves for being hated because of something we did to bring it on.
It actually scares me that anyone can be in denial about the truths akuperma and others post.
ALL goyim hate us because we’re Jewish, Arab and Christian. But the Arabs were egged to extra violence against us by the Zionists.
To make an analogy to dogs (and in this analogy the Americans are unusually friendly and intelligent canines), the Arabs are and have for most of our history been fairly moderate as beasts go. As long you don’t threaten them, or boss them around, or get in their way – they will probably like you. Around World War I we started pulling their tails and they got very annoyed. We went along with the Brits in double crossing the Arabs after the war ; at first we worked with them for an autonomous Jewish homeland within the large state the Arabs were offered for helping the Allies in the war, but by the mid-20s the zionists were firmly in charge of the Yishua and were supporting the Brits – frankly we are lucky that most Arabs didn’t flock to the Germans in WWII since it might have changed the outcome but the Arabs generally realized Hitler would eventually turn on them as well – the “Mufti” tried but couldn’t find any support.
Based on past experiences, in a post-zionist Eretz Yisrael (i.e. after the haredim become a minority and are willing to compromise on sovereignity in return for peace), the Arabs won’t object to Jews learning Torah (as long as we cover our own bills, and the most frum of the hareidim already do). They won’t draft us (under Islam, Jews didn’t have the right to bear arms). As long as we give them political control and don’t try to impose alien values on them, they will tolerate us. That has been their past pattern and there is no reason to think the past won’t repeat.
We could be active economically, certainly to a much greater extent than under the zionists, as long as we don’t get too bossy. We have only limited political rights meaning we’ld have as much control of the country as we do under the zionists. The legal system would be no more rigged against than it is today, but they would respect communal autonomy.
The hilonim would be the big losers. The infamous sort of tourism that Tel Aviv prides itself on would be banned. You wouldn’t have a Jewish girl at the Miss World contest, nor an Israeli diplomat sat the UN. Pork breeders would be in trouble. While the Muslims share a belief in a welfare state, they also have a belief in not running an economy based on printing money, so no more welfare state to sponge off of.
We should tolerate the zionists treating us as “second class citizens” as long as they don’t do something too oppressive, such as drafting yeshiva students or women. But if they did, they will be approaching a tipping point where it be time to consider going from being second class Israelis to second class Palestinians.
No offence meant, but aren’t some of you people basically asking about yediya and bechira. I mean, if halacha be’yoduo she’eisov soinei es ya’akoiv, then how does that add up with anyone’s responsibility for any consequences starting with any goyim?
Please remeber that churban habayis was also broght about by bar kamtza angering the roman empire
It’s a common myth that the Arabs were all friendly with us until Zionism. Contrary to Satmar/NK, the Arabs were not the best people to be subjugated under.
Certainly it was far better to be subjugated under the Arabs (as unpleasent as it was) than to have been subjugated under the Christians.
Akuperma, drei nit ken kup, most Chareidim can not cover their own bills without outside help.
Not sure if I should laugh or cry! Akuperma’s vision of the relationship between Arabs and Jews is way off base. Even the Arabs don’t want to live under Arab rule!! Let’s see, hmmm… you know, I can’t think of any moslem countries that treat their own people well (besides for maybe Turkey). They murder their own people in droves, they supress their rights and they are all-around not nice guys (is that PC enough for you?)
The Jews in every single moslem country have been murdered for centuries and this has NOTHING to do with Israel and zionism. The Jews in Yemen, Iran, Iraq, etc number only a few – they obediently live their lives in ghettos (sometimes under the “protection” of the moslem governments) until every so often there’s a pogrom or attack that murders a few of them. The thought that you can blame this on zionism or the idea that you can suggest that the Arabs will be good to the Jews is… I just don’t know if I should laugh or cry.
Oh, akuperma (et al) – maybe y’all should pick up a Koran while you’re learning in Yeshiva D’Palestine and learn the “posuk” about the moslems killing every last Jew. “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.” I know that you want to point to the once in a while where Jews did successfully live in relative peace with the moslems. However, they’ve always been quite direct when they say that they will fulfill their quest to kill all Jews and dominate the world when they come to power. Until then, they live in relative peace so that they can make their way into power.
Would you like some more info about the Moslem Arabs’ feelings? Check out some more of their p’sukim in the Koran here (or google “koran verses on killing jews”): http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
Just a quick, well-placed quote from that site: “Other than the fact that Muslims haven’t killed every non-Muslim under their domain, there is very little else that they can point to as proof that theirs is a peaceful, tolerant religion. Where Islam is dominant (as in the Middle East and Pakistan) religious minorities suffer brutal persecution with little resistance. Where Islam is in the minority (as in Thailand, the Philippines and Europe) there is the threat of violence if Muslim demands are not met.”
There is no doubt at all that the Arabs became 1,000 times more violent to the Jews ever since the Zionists announced their intention to make Palestine into a Jewish State (around the time of the Balfour Declaration) and especially since a State was actually established.
I’m quite sure you are right Confucious. Certainly the Arabs went back into their Koran and added these hateful p’sukim in at around the time of the Balfour Declaration. Before that the Arabs loved the Jews and I’m sure they would have never murdered millions of their own people and 100,000s of Jews over the past centuries. In fact, I’m positive that the only reason the moslems blew up the World Trade Center and the Pentagon was because of the zionists. Heck, we all know that Hashem’s Torah doesn’t tell us anything about the hate that the Bnei Yishmael have for us. All of those theories and silly divrei Torah about ma’aseh Avot siman l’banim are a joke. Everyone knows that the Jews can and should live peacefully under the governance of the wonderful brotherly Arabs.
Don’t be foolish. Goyim hate yidden, period. They always did. It’s in all their religious books, etc. We are living in golus, and this is the case anywhere, any place. That being said, some goyim were far more murderous to us than others. The Arabs, for 2,000 years up to the early 20th Century with the advent of Zionism, were FAR FAR better to yidden living in their lands than their muderous Christian counterparts. The Europeans, from the time of the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash through all the crusades through all the blood libels through the recent holocaust in the 20th century, were FAR FAR more deadly and murderous against us than the Arabs ever were. For most of history we lived in relative peace and properity in the Arab lands, especially as compared to our dismal living conditions at the same time in the non-Arab lands, most notably Europe. All this, of course, do not negate the times the Arabs have been hurting us even prior to the advent of Zionism.
I actually do agree with you about some of this. The christians persecuted us quite severly in the past. That doesn’t mean anything about your other point though. The different nations take turns bashing our skulls in and now it’s the moslems. That’s the point – it’s not zionism, it’s just their turn. That doesn’t mean we should let it happen. You need to recognize the fact that right now the christians are relatively good to us but the moslems are not the ones you want ruling over you. That’s why I cringe at akuperma’s and Confucious’ comments that we should live peacefully under the moslems and the only reason they don’t like us is because of zionism.
As for me, I choose to wake up and smell the galut. That’s why I don’t think we should live under the rule of the christians OR the moslems. Certainly akuperma will jump on the fact that it’s better than living under the horrible zionists who are all anti-Torah. He’s wrong! The beginnings of the zionist movement were anti-religion but apparently akuperma has missed the past 60+ years of it. There have been a few changes once the frum Jews finally woke up. There are wonderful things, religious things going on here now! I just heard a radio ad today on a horrible zionist radio station reminding us all that there’s a daf yomi shiur every morning at 5:00 AM. This is a beautiful country and it’s our job to make it better.
Just a note – the satmar shita on the state of Israel is actually the minority – I mean the original Satmar rebbe’s opinion on the topic that the current satmar movement bases their rhetoric on. The rest of the Torah shitot on the topic may or may not have agreed with the Jews coming back to Israel to create a state but none of them would advocate the extreme things that the Satmar do now that it’s here. So, it’s here and it’s time for all Jews to come here and make it a better place.
Y Me, I am not saying the Moslems are right, but it is a fact that the Arabs became much more violent towards the Jews after the advent of Zionism. Todeh al ha’emes!
I don’t have much time to post here now, but I want to make it very clear that the Jewish homeland was NOT supposed to be under self-rule. Direct British rule was what was called for, at least at the beginning.
I do not want to live in EY under the rule of a bunch of baryoinim whose city, Tel Aviv, is literally a new Sdoim, a capital of M”Z, organized crime, and many other social ills. If I do live there, or even am not careful when visiting, I end up financially supporting this abomination, so that living in EY is a mitzvah sheba beavaira.
I am sure Nachum Segal and other Jewish radio hosts broadcast the times of shiurim in the US when their organizers pass on the information. Meanwhile, the radio stations that broadcast such info in EY are hounded by the communications authority of the medine.
The medine is like a chozzer – you see its kosher feet, but the rest of it is chozzer treyf and a complete abomination as it is doing its best to negate the kedusha of EY and turn Jews into a nation like any other. It will fail economically, socially and morally as Hashem’s messengers, the nations of the world, turn against it with the BDS movement that will soon spread so large stores and government entities upon whom the medine’s industries depend will stop dealing with them. That will force the best scientists and entrepreneurs to leave (as many are doing quietly anyway), and the huge real estate bubble in EY will burst, so you’ll see plenty of Hebrew University graduates flipping pizza on 13th Ave, faking frumkeit to get even the most menial job from Yidden who hire them out of sympathy.
And why? Because that state is a loaf of bread on a Seder table, or a chozzer on the mizbeach. If Jews lived in EY bekedusha ubetehora, even autonomously, the world would respect us.
At various times in history, Muslim leaders felt they needed the Jews for their economic acumen and temporarily treated them well provided they accepted second-class status. These times were the exception to the rule. Intolerance and forced conversion were more commonly the lot of the dhimmi Jew.
Hashem yerachaim.
mdd – In research, it’s well known that association doesn’t infer cause & effect. Many things changed in the world at that time, not just the beginings of the zionistic movement. In case anyone doesn’t recall, at the same time there were 2 world wars, the collapse of several empires, the creation of “mandates” to control the lands that were won, the industrial revolution, women’s rights, freeing of slaves, the christian religion layed off on their conquest of the world, and a few other things. Most importantly, the moslems in their Koran and their history say it the best themselves. The moslem agression (read: murder and control of everyone under their control) begand over 1,400 years ago! Read here for a proper history (not some YWN commenter’s self-created version).
No links. Sorry.
I agree with Wolfman. I’m not sure where some people come up with their naive comments.
As for TheBear, the things you said are scary. I’m still kinda hoping you don’t really believe the things you wrote.
It sounds to me like you’ve paskened that “living in EY is a mitzvah sheba beavaira.” Perhaps you should share your version of halacha with the gedolei yisrael who live in EY. For every abomination here, there are way more in chu”l but you’ve conveniently decided to ignore that because it doesn’t fit into your justification argument as to why you don’t move to the holy land that Hashem promised to the Avot & Imahot.
As for my comment about the radio ad of a daf yomi shiur every day at 5am – I meant that the radio program BROADCASTS the daf yomi shiur every morning at 5! Again, this is a regular radio program that’s run by the “zionist regime.” Nachum Segal’s programs announce wonderful events and shiurim. They play heartwarming Jewish music. They even have divrei Torah sometimes. But you can’t begin to compare that to a daily daf yomi broadcast to the entire country! Oh, by the way, Nachum Segal is a religious zionist!
The rest of the stuff that you wrote is just drivel. Full of hate for wonderful religious people here who are building a home for themselves full of Torah. Talk to the meraglim and they’ll hopefully be able to remind you about why you’re not allowed to say loshon hara about our land (and people). If you don’t like something that’s going on here – in Tel Aviv or anywhere else – then come here and make it better! Not by throwing rocks or insults but by doing something constructive to be mekarev the rechokim. Your comments do nothing to improve the ills of the secular in Tel Aviv but rather drives them further away. I kind of remember my mommy telling me “if you can’t say something nice then don’t say anything at all.”
Well said, mdd (last comment) and TheBear. Yasher Koach.
MorahRach, What do charedim financially contribute to the state?
actually, tax wise, pecenagewise there are more chareidim working than there are chilonim.
even those lucky bnei torah that are learning, they are paying alot more of their monthly meager income to food taxes etc, than the average chiloni family. they have larger families and just to feed them costs them huge amounts. not to mention the private school systems that save the country from supporting them.
please, enough “shtuyot”. the issue here is not about money.
YOU KNOW WHAT IT’S ALL ABOUT!!!
ASHREICHEM TALMIDEI CHACHAMIM!!
Bear, WRONG! The British were supposed to eventually create an independent Jewish state there.
Anyhow, what’s the weather in Teheran?
To mutche: I’m going to bet that you have absolutely no source whatsoever for your claimed “facts.” You say that “percentage-wise there are more chareidim working than there are chilonim.” To that I’ll say “Did you know that 97.4% of all statistics are just made up on the spot?” I’m gonna call “bluff” because you’re incorrect – by far.
As for your claim that chareidi families have larger families and therefore pay more “of their monthly meager income to food taxes etc, than the average chiloni family.” OK, so apparently you don’t understand some basics of economics (that’s one of those things you need to learn in school in order to get a good job).
Firstly, there are more working chareidim here than admit to it. They often work in cash or somehow off the books – this means that they’re NOT paying any income taxes at all so take them out of the equation.
Secondly, the ones that do work on the books often do in fact have meager incomes (as you pointed out). That means that they don’t meet the threshold for paying income taxes at all so take that next group out of the equation. Many others just make it into the lowest tax brackets which don’t cover the expense of the services that they use.
Thirdly, you complain (assumingly on their behalf) that they only earn a meager income. Problem with your argument is that they created that problem! In fact, now that they’ve been creating that problem for quite a few years now, they refuse to help change the situation even to help their own tzibur!
Fourthly, the VAT that is paid on food or other things here is 17%. In contrast, the income tax brackets for most non-chareidi perople are significantly higher than that (sometimes double or more!). There’s also bituach leumi (social security taxes). That means that the non-chareidi families are paying the 17% VAT *on top of* the income taxes & bituach leumi they already pay from their salaries.
Fifthly, tuition for chareidi schools are often heavily susidized here unlike in the US. Your comment about the chareidi private schools somehow saving a lot of money is bizaare and wrong. It makes me think you don’t live here or certainly don’t know the reality of what’s going on here.
I think the basic problem comes down to this – the chareidi tzibur (especially the leadership) base all of their calculations on some kind of magical mathematics where everything is free except for the things you actually buy (housing, food, clothes). The truth is, while we all hate taxes, they actually do pay for the things we use on a daily basis. Healthcare, roads, public lighting, police, garbage collection, water and electrical infrastructure, parks, airport, municipal and national government, defense, kitzvat yeladim, disability coverage, etc, etc, etc. If you are a family who lives here (even if you’re not a citizen) then you use most or all of these services. If you don’t pay full taxes then you’re NOT FINANCIALLY CONTRIBUTING TO THE COUNTRY. Instead, you are taking tremendous amounts of money from the country.
RBS.Jew: You are completely missing and negating the fact that the Israeli government does not allow and makes it illegal for Chareidim to work until age 28. So for the first 10 or so years of their marriage they are not allowed to legally work, on the books. Why is this point so hard for you to accept and acknowledge?? THIS is the reason so many Chareidim work off the books or can’t work at all!!
Tell your friends to fix that law to allow Chareidim to work without Army service (and, no, we won’t accept mandatory Army) and you will see many many more Chareidim working on the books and paying taxes. As far as your demand that we get better paying jobs, that is a non-starter. We are entitled to earn a meager living and lifestyle if that is our choice. And our education choices, regarding limudei kodesh and/or secular studies (or lack thereof) is fully our choice and the government cannot and we will not allow them to interfere with our educational decisions for our children, as is our fundamental and natural right.
shein, I would like to truly thank you for every word you just posted. It sums up the problem so perfectly that I couldn’t have done it better myself. In fact, had I even tried to post the same exact words as you just did, the moderators would never had posted my comment because it would have been considered “anti-chareidi.”
By the way, just recognize that the government of Israel does NOT make it illegal for chareidi people to work before age 28. In fact, it’s the chareidi movement that has created that dilema by refusing to take part in the country in which they reside. They refuse to keep accept that dinei d’malchusa dina. No one forces chareidim to refuse to join the army OR TO DO A SHEIRUT LEUMI program! How many times does someone on this site need to point out that a sheirut leumi program is CHESED? As was said before – the chareidi tzibur would have been much better off putting all of their efforts into making chareidi chesed projects into acceptable sheirut leumi programs. They also should have spent their time and effort creating better army programs for themselves. Instead, they (you) will continue down this path of hatred toward the government and people who build and secure this country in which you live and learn.
Confucious – “no doubt” you write. But you don’t know. I suggest you actually read some of Haj Amin’s words. Do the research before you talk. I have. Maybe read transcripts of his broadcasts from Nazi Germany. Maybe read some of the interviews he did with Collins and LaPierre in O Jerusalem. Maybe read about the passage in the muslim Hadith he often quoted which talks about the muslim mahdi not coming until every Jew is murdered, when even the Gharkad tree, according to muslim tradition a “tree” which loves the Jews, will say “O muslim, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!”
So, were there Zionists in the time the hadith were were written and transcribed? In the 9th century CE?
Do some research before you respond.
Yichusdic, the Arabs got definetely much more violent once they had learnt of the Jewish state project. Be modeh al ha’emesl! It is a simple historical fact. Yes, yes, I know it says all kinds if things in their literature. They were not that busy being mekayem them though before 1918 when they hopped that the Jews wanted to restore their state in Eretz Yisroel. That’s when the fury was unleashed.
I rarely agree with Confucious, but here he is right on the money. Again, I do not justify the Arab behaviour, but it is a product of the state restoration.
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