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Correction to a typo.
Rabbeinu Gershom’s venerable teacher was Rabbi Leontin (Lion), sometimes known as Aryeh or Gur Aryeh.So Dr. Gra”ch is Da’at Torah for you [ as he is for many others who stridently deny their belief in the concept]?
The Dr. is full of preconceived notions and has been before he proved it with Rupture and Reconstruction in ’94.
a study of Bavli vs Yerushalmi for anyone who is open-minded ought to lean towards the Ashkenazi
Land of Israel contention.
Jews have been living in Cologne since 321 ce the latest, with customs far predating Rabbenu Gershom.Oh my goodness, someone is on the attack, and attacking others too. Sad.
I suggest you take some lessons in open-mindedness. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I sense that you have not read the scholarly books written in Hebrew. Not Fleischer, not Ta Shma, not Yaakov Katz, not Goldschmidt, not Grossman, not even Zimmer. If I’m wrong, I apologize and you win. If I’m right, then we’ll end this discussion because to come to a personal conclusion, argue for it, and attack someone to boot, one has to have done the homework. So either way, end of discussion.If you want to know who is a gadol, try to be a gadol yourself and then find someone who knows more than you. But unless you really try for yourself, your gedolim will always be ‘picked’ for you.
The difference between Ashkenaz and Sephardic Torah is not about the gedolim. It is that the average ashkenazic baalei batim were more learned than the sephardim. The european tailor might not know all of shas but he could at least learn through gemara and Tosfos that he remembered from his yeshiva days. This is something that Rav Ovadya had to change and it is much better now, at least in EY.
Ari-free: Are you joking? The average Ashkenazi baal bait DID NOT know Gemara. Period. Where did you get this from?
If anything it it well documented that Sephardim were much more learned, literate, worldly.
Again, when dealing with Ashkenazim we have to realize we’re dealing with a very very short Mesora whereas for Sephardim there is a long unbroken chain. As such the average person was much more equipped intellectually and Torah-wise.
So what are your talking about? We need sources for your claim.
edited
Yabia: Ari is 100% correct. It is an undisputed fact that the average Orthodox Ashkenazi was more stringently Torah observant and knowledgeable than the average Sephardi. This resulted in a post-WWII situation where the average Sephardi wasn’t very Torah knowledgeable or very observant. And most considered themselves “traditional” rather than religious. Just look at how may numerous Gedolim the Ashkenazic world has produced over the last 500 years, whereas the Sephardic world has produced a pittance in comparison since the passing of the generation that survived the Spanish and Portugese Expulsions.
The Ashkenazic Torah world led by the Chazon Ish, Rav Shach and other Ashkenazic Gedolim worked hard to rebuild the Yeshiva and Torah system in the Sephardic world after the WWII. The vast majority of today’s greatest Sephardic rabbonim (including Chacham Ovadia Yosef zt’l who learnt in the Yeshiva of HaGaon HaRav Tzvi Pesach Frank zt’l, Litvishe Chief Rabbi of Yerushalayim and Dayan of the Ashkenazic Badatz Eidah HaChareidus) leaent in Ashkenazic yeshivos since the Sephardic ones couldn’t remotely compare.
The Ashkenazic mesora goes back to Eretz Yisroel pre-churban and remains unbroken at least since the times of Rabbeinu Gershom, Rashi and the Baalei Tosfos; that’s 1,000+ years of Ashkenazic mesora. Whereas the Sephardic mesora was broken by the Inquisiton when 50% of Sephardim converted to Christianity and the other 50% were forced to leave their home of centuries and move thousands of miles away where their mesora was mixed into the mesora of the local Eidah Hamizrach, resulting in a new mixed practice.
The Rabad, Rav Avraham ibn Daud, mentions encountering rabbinical students descended from Khazars in Toledo, Spain in the 1160s. Here’s a source that clearly the Khazars merged into the Sephardic world.
Additionally, as great as Rav Ovadia was, people have this notion that he was the only Sephardic “Gadol”. This is an affront to the many many other Sephardic Geonim of our time.
Joseph. “Religiously strict” is proof of LACK of knowledge and LACK of understanding. When you are stricter than what the Rambam or SA prescribe it is because you don’t know the halacha and therefore are strict “just in case”. Halacha is not “just in case”. Halacha is the law and every Jew must be knowledgeable. When people go beyond that it is a sign of Am haartzut.
It is very well documented that Sephardim were much more learned, worldly and literate. Most Ashkenazim were not and that is reflected in many of the psakim of the Rama (who had to conform to Minhagim that were neged all the Gedolei Ha Halacha.
Secondly this notion that Ashkenazim built up Sephardim is a fallacy that has been repudiated many times. Ashkenazim know how to pump things up and market things. “Gadol Hador”, “Olam Hatorah”, “Ben Torah”. It’s all Nahrishkeit.
People who post on YWN are very very far from deciding who is and who isn’t a Gadol and who had more Torah observance.
The Ashkenazic lineage is questionable and as such if I had to pick I’ve said time and time again there is unquestionably more fidelity with the Sephardic mesora. It’s not even a question.
Tzeh ulmad
How do I turn off notifications to my email?
Yabia: You keep repeating your same repudiated and discredited points like a parrot, that I’ve already disproven with sources to your sourcless contentions. Keeping to repeat the same lie doesn’t magically make it true. I’ve demonstrated that the Khazars melted into the Sephardic population; that Ashkenazim have demonstrably have far greater and far more numerous Gedolei Achronim over the last 500 years; that even the laymen have been far more Torah knowledgeable and Torah observant among the Ashkenazim; and that Ashkenazic mesora is far stronger and more lengthy.
Wow. For all of these “well documented” facts people are stating, there sure is a glaring lack of sources being cited here.
Who cares who had smarter balhabatim 1000 years ago?
The khazar theory is fake and made up by anti-Semites. Everyone should be proud of their mesorah. People who “wish they could switch to the other mesorah” are self-loathers and should not be taken seriously in any argument.
All i mean is I take ANY Ashkenazic Mesora with a grain of salt. I’ll give you anexample: “Chassidishe” Shechita.
What does that even mean?? It’s a 300 year old movement. I have to somehow believe that when Satmar was created less than a century ago, they magically knew better than the Bet Yosef? Rambam?For the record many, maybe most, “Satmar” people were not Satmar 2 or 3 generations ago. And you expect me to rely on that mesora?
“I have to somehow believe that when Satmar was created less than a century ago, they magically knew better than the Bet Yosef? Rambam?”
What exactly is the issue you see? Are you assuming they posken that everyone before Chassidus was over issurim, because, if so, you’re wrong. If you’re bothered by the fact that some people use sharper knives to be safe, then you really need to get a life.” And you expect me to rely on that mesora?”
Nobody is trying to convert you. We just want you to stop chiming in on random threads to comment about how Sphardim are superior and Ashkenazim are stupid. Frankly, I don’t see why you’re any better than someone like Rebbitzin Golden Pick. Your account does not seem to serve any purpose other than to potentially cause a chillul Sphard in the event that a passerby reads your posts and gets the impression that REAL Sphardim actually think like you, which they do not.Then stop churning fallacies like “The ‘A’ community built up the ‘S’ community”. Go out and learn and educate yourselves. Till then I’ll point out every single meshugas.
“Then stop churning fallacies like “The ‘A’ community built up the ‘S’ community”.”
Who’s the one saying that other than you? We aren’t going around berating Sphardim for no reason. Case and point, this thread was supposed to be about Rav Shlomo Kanievsky. You’re the one who turned it into this, on account of your weird, questionably sane obsession with comparing Ashkenazim and Sphardim.
We have gone out and learned and been around the block enough to know that real frum Sphardim are normal people, not like you and “Rabbi” Mizrachi. Unfortunately, there are people on these forums who don’t necessarily live in areas where they will see this. You’re making Sphardim look like crazy people; what are you expecting to gain from it?
“Till then I’ll point out every single meshugas.”
YO pointing these out, doesn’t win any arguments. they make you seem so insecure.
why are you so obsessed with trivial things call it “Israel” wear whatever you ant on your head. YOU care more than any body I’ve metyou ask “I have to somehow believe that when Satmar was created less than a century ago, they magically knew better than the Bet Yosef? Rambam?”
NO!! who asked you to believe that? If you want chasidishe shechita, go for it if you dont, dont.
(Of course if you want to know what it is, ask, learning new things is always good but that isnt what uou did)
In short, why are you so insecure? be proud of your heritage
@ Rational
Excellent posts. It’s sad they seem to have gone underappreciated.
@ et al
Regarding the question of whether or not all Gadlus / Rabbanus is local please refer to the original smicha controversy (Rivash 271).
@ YO
While there where some interesting tidbits in what you wrote that may have been worth discussing they where unfortunately lost in so much verbal vomit. I will not be troubling myself to retrieve them.
@ ZD
Surely you do know that the Rosh and Tur where Ashkenazim. Did you happen to know what the Rosh held regarding the authority of the Ba’alai Tosafot vs the Rambam? How about the authority of Ashenazi customs and scholorship vs those of his adopted land?
“be proud of your heritage”
What heritage? His heritage is all is 17 years.
It’s not a question of insecurity. Imagine you worked with people that kept saying incorrect things about Jews. Eventually you’d want to correct them. Is that insecurity?
And I have made it clear that I am not Sephardic. Just like a white person can point out negative things that white people do and that, say, Hispanic people, do well, Hu Hadin here as well.
Do you guys perhaps not want to broaden your horizons? Are you beyond reproach?
“Imagine you worked with people that kept saying incorrect things about Jews.”
What are you talking about?
Are you saying there is something incorrect about saying “Eretz Yisroel” over “Israel” ?
All we need to check is if there’s a search committee forming in order to staff his gatekeepers. A Gadol needs to have staff. That staff ensures that he gets all of the information he needs, from whatever the appropriate sources, in order to make the best possible decisions, and then disseminate those decisions to the widest appropriate audience.
If we see that they’re staffing up gatekeeper for Rav Kanievsky, then we’ll know that he’s in a qualified gadol program.
@ YO “Imagine you worked with people that kept saying incorrect things about Jews. Eventually you’d want to correct them”
Right, like the anti-Semitic myth that Jews descend from Khazars
Also, news flash. It is not only among Ashkenazim that certain groups started emphasizing practices based on the Zohar and Kitvei Ari. Surely you are familiar with the Chida and Ben Ish Chai (for starters). This does not make any ones mesorah 200 years old. We all learn Rashi, Tos, and Rosh right along with Rif, Rambam, and Rashba.
He’s in the states to collect money for his yeshiva. Like every other ad on Yeshiva World and other Jewish news sites, that are designed trick you into clicking on a headline that was worded to sound like an amazing story while it’s just another sob story to play with your emotions for a donation. The advertisements about his heritage are designed to play with peoples emotions and have them think that by donating to his yeshiva you somehow will merit great zechusim more than any other Tzedakah cause, including the starving children in your own neighborhood.
The way this is going, I am curious; what does everyone have to say about the Yam Shel Shlomo’s hakdama to Baba Kama, I would quote it, but I don’t know if it would make it through moderation.
” Just like a white person can point out negative things that white people do and that, say, Hispanic people, do well, Hu Hadin here as well.”
When they do it as methodically as you do, they get called self-loathers because that’s all they are. As I said earlier, your whole shtick is just the yiddishkeit version of self-loathing, white liberalism. You see Ashkenaz as the “default” and therefore anything else is “more cultured” and more interesting. Liberals do the same thing with western culture.
The act is not a chiddush either. There’s a whole big shul in Manhattan of Ashkenazim who pretend to be Sphardim and tout all the same nonsense. I think it’s a trend among the Dati Leumi also, but I wouldn’t really know.
Perhaps those Manhattanites are finally trying to experience an authentic, natural Judaism as opposed to an artificially rigid and benighted one?
In the non-charedi world the lines between Ashkenzim and Sephardim are being erased because they are marrying each other (Marriage between Chaedi Sephardim and Ashkenazsim are much rarer)
YO,
If the Sephardic methodology of psak works for you and yours, go for it!
Although those who comprehend understand it to be Less than Optimum it is good enough
This shall not expounded upon as
a. The Forum is not appropriate
b. it is for those who are worthy@ YO
“authentic, natural Judaism”You can have natural Judaism, we”ll go with the original Divinely revealed version.
“Perhaps those Manhattanites are finally trying to experience an authentic, natural Judaism as opposed to an artificially rigid and benighted one?”
Perhaps you know more about them than you let on?
The shul being discussed here, for those who don’t know, is an Open Orthodox/Conservadox shul that couches it’s kulos behind the Sphardi mesorah (a real disrespect to real Sphardim). If you want to see REAL cultural appropriation (not a phrase I like using) go there. They claim to be more authentically Sphardi than real Sphardim because they used historical research to reestablish the pre-expulsion mesora, which is obvious nonsense.
@ NCB
“The shul being discussed here, for those who don’t know…”
I, for one had no Idea. Thank you for clarifying. Now we know the that the Meseorah YO is referring to is ish m’pi ish m’pi Avi Weiss u’ bait dino.
“I, for one had no Idea. Thank you for clarifying. Now we know the that the Meseorah YO is referring to is ish m’pi ish m’pi Avi Weiss u’ bait dino.”
100%. I’m trying to avoid names, but Avi Weiss has a well-known side-kick (particularly in creating pasul gerim). He’s from that shul.
For someone to take the mesorah that doesn’t hold like Rashi for reshus harabim/eruvim, was historically more machmir with glatt, was historically more machmir with waiting between meat and dairy, doesn’t mix fish and dairy, says birkas kohanim daily, (the list goes on) and claim that it’s better because it’s “more meikel,” there’s a good chance they’ve been influenced by that Manhattan community (which, by the way, does none of these things to my knowledge). Baruch Hashem, it’s a limited trend, but I refer to it as “Neo-Sphardic,” because their relationship with minhag Sphard is like that of Neo-Chassidim with Chassidus: they take what’s fun and disregard the rest.
Neville, that congregation, the oldest in the U.S., used to be Sephardic as it was started by them in the 1600s.
“Neville, that congregation, the oldest in the U.S., used to be Sephardic as it was started by them in the 1600s.”
Yes, we are talking about the same one. Today, it is as I described it. I have no idea when it switched, how gradually, or if it were ever really that Orthodox; I’m not an expert. I just happen to know the current status of it, and that some people who hold of it like to work in the inferiority of Ashkenazim into random conversations.
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