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How come we haven’t much about Rav Shlomo Kanievsky until now? There seems to be a push to get his name out, where is that coming from?
No one is groomed to be. Gedolei HaDor are self-made.
Who is “pushing” his name?
I will assume he is a tremendous gaon and tzadik., However, you are hearing of him because there is a need to fundraise, andit has become fashionable in these times to use gedolim as marketing props. If his last name would be Katz or Joseph and not Kanievsky, they wouldnt be using him.
Because we live in the age of “Gadol Hador” “Sar Hatorah” “Poseik Hador”. Our generation has a nearly pathological need for these figures so we can worship them and give up any individual responsibility for ourselves. No need to do anything when you can have the Gadol Hador decide everything for you.
Halevi we all had the zchus that the Godol HaDor decided everything for us.
It’s not a push.
He is visiting America to raise money for his yeshiva.
His illustrious yichis just goes to show his worthiness and that of his cause.
The fact that he is a massive tzadik and talmid chacham, and was raised by R’ Chaim, might say something about his gadlis.
How can anyone write such cynical things???
I try not to stick my nose where it does not belong. Probably the regulars here know I am a Lubavitcher. However, who reads about someone who is the son of a unique Gaon, the descendant of righteous people and gaonim such as HRH”G R’ Elyashiv, The Steipler Gaon, R’ Aryeh Levin, etc. someone who is following in the footsteps of the Chazon Ish, and the thing you look to say is he is a prop? Chalillah v’Chas. Oy Lanu!
This is truly disgusting.
His FATHER is used as a prop for tzedakos. He is the face of several well known tzedakas. That is an undisputable fact. THAT is the REAL bizayon hatorah.
Yussel; Which other ages have you lived in that you can compare with?
“….Halevi we all had the zchus that the GodolHaDor[ah] decided everything for us…”
One of the rare occasions that I totally agree with Joseph…..
“No one is groomed to be. Gedolei HaDor are self-made.”
Except every Chassidishe Rebbe ever. I don’t think it would be totally inaccurate to say the yeshivish world is also moving more towards being yichis-based.UNCLE BEN:
DOes a person have to have lived through a particular historical period in order to know anything about it? If that is the case then we can take ALL works of History and biography and throw them on the trash heap.
Except every Chassidishe Rebbe ever. I don’t think it would be totally inaccurate to say the yeshivish world is also moving more towards being yichis-based.
That’s a gross exaggeration for chassidim, and an even grosser one for roshei yeshivos.
Not that yichus doesn’t have an impact, but there are plenty of cases where the son isn’t worthy and therefore doesn’t take over, and by roshei yeshivos, even where they do take over, that doesn’t mean they are considered a gadol. That has to be earned.
Yussel is 100% correct. But it should be noted that all these titles are a contemporary, Ashkenazic invention. Utterly meaningless and artificial.
Even within the Sephardeshe tzibur, it doesn’t hurt if your tate was considered the gadol hador (aka R Yosef Sr. vs. R’ Yosef Jrs. )
“Not that yichus doesn’t have an impact, but there are plenty of cases where the son isn’t worthy and therefore doesn’t take over”
So what? It goes to a nephew or grandson who is more qualified, not to some random, best-qualified candidate with zero family connection.The point is, it isn’t decided by looking at the entire population and picking out who the most learned and qualified is. It’s decided by looking at the portion of the population with the right yichis (a much smaller number of people) and then seeing who’s most qualified. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but it’s kind of silly to pretend it’s not true.
Neville: There is strong halachic basis to favoring the child of the deceased rabbi in appointing his successor.
it’s kind of silly to pretend it’s not true
What’s silly is to pretend that anyone claims yichus isn’t a factor at all.
“Neville: There is strong halachic basis to favoring the child of the deceased rabbi in appointing his successor.”
Yasher koach. Thanks for helping me disprove your original statement.“What’s silly is to pretend that anyone claims yichus isn’t a factor at all.”
Joseph did.Neville: There is strong halachic basis to favoring the child of the deceased rabbi in appointing his successor.
The greatest king of Judea King Hezekiah, had a son who was the Worst Manasshe
Wasn’t one of the reasons that R’ Elazar ben Azarya was chosen as Nasi because he was meyuchas to Ezra?
Neville, you’re confusing two things. Gedolei HaDor do not come about from yichus or from succeeding one’s father. But an appointed position such as town rabbi or Rebbe can be succeeded. But the latter does not make one a Godol HaDor.
“Gedolei HaDor do not come about from yichus or from succeeding one’s father.”
I think the rest of us are in agreement that this point is silly and untrue.
All who spoke with such bizayon are what the Gemara in sanhedrin says are apikorsim as to when u speak bizayon on a talmid chacham and FYI he KNEW not read shas already by 13 – 14 and r Chaim endorsed him alooooot
Yussel, what you’re saying is ridiculous. In every generation the Yidden have looked to their leaders, the gedolai hador, the poskim. The Rambam lists the gedolai hador from Moshe Rabbainu until iirc Rav Ashi.
“Gedolei HaDor do not come about from yichus or from succeeding one’s father.”
I think the rest of us are in agreement that this point is silly and untrue.
Neville, I don’t think anyone claims “Godol HaDor” is an inherited position.
You’re again confusing Godol HaDor with town rabbi or Rebbe.
Nope. Just accepting the reality that every person called a “gadol” happens to be descended from a previous “gadol.” You’re allowed to think that’s total coincidence, and I’m allowed to call you silly for it.
It’s not exclusively true, although it is common. And it’s not surprising that a gadol b’Torah would be a gadol b’chinuch too, or that someone who grew up surrounded by gadlus should be more likely to become a gadol.
YO,
R’ Elazar Ben Azarya was chosen because he had Zechus Avos (which, it was hoped, would protect him from whatever K’peida Rabban Gamliel might have), but not because he had “rights” to the position. It should be noted that he was approximately four hundred years removed from Ezra.Neville — Which Gedolim are the father’s of the following Gedolim: Rav Aharon Schechter, Rav Yisroel Belsky, Rav Moshe, Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Yitzchok Scheiner, Rav Chaim Pinchos Scheinberg, Rav Moshe Hillel Hirsch, Rav Yitzchok Hutner, Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, etc.?
I don’t know about the others, but R’ Dovid Feinstein zt”l (Rav Moshe’s father) was huge.
To play devil’s advocate, it’s much harder to find in the last few decades. But you’re right, there are definitely well known gedolim whose fathers were not.
Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, son is Rav Shmuel kaminetsky
Rav Aharon Kotler’s grandson is Rav Malkiel JKotler
Rav Chaim Pinchos Scheinberg grandchildren are Gedolim
Rav Yisroel Belsky Son in law is very well knownThe Second world War changed the dynamics a bit as the whole communities were uprooted from Europe and many Gedolim did not survive the war so there had to be new leadership, but that is no longer the case
Yes, we all know there are some well known roshei yeshivos whose fathers and or grandfathers were gedolim, but it’s by no means exclusive.
There are some gedolim who don’t have famous sons, and some famous roshei yeshivos whose fathers and grandfathers were not so we’ll known.
“Yes, we all know there are some well known roshei yeshivos whose fathers and or grandfathers were gedolim, but it’s by no means exclusive.”
Then name some of the exceptions that are around today. Nobody is disputing that the European generation was more merit-based.
My original post was that the Litvish world is moving towards being yichus based. The fact that Joseph had to use previous generations as examples proves my point better than it proves his.
! התורה לא נקנית בירושה
I hate when people use the work “groomed”. It always makes me think of a poodle!
Neville — Count how many current members of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah have a father who was one of the Gedolei HaDor and how many do not.
“Neville — Count how many current members of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah have a father who was one of the Gedolei HaDor and how many do not.”
Why bother? Not every member is colloquially known as the “gadol hador” so it has nothing to do with this discussion.
Neville — I don’t know about “the” Godol HaDor, but all the members of the Moetzes are Gedolim. So my previous point stands.
Joseph
When was the last time your wisdom was asked of who the next Gadol HaDoor should be?
Gadol HaDor is a not a thing. It’s a contemporary, Litvish invention. And even if it existed, who decides who is and who isn’t the Gadol. Isn’t it possible that there was some unknown person who was greater in Torah than, say, R Elyashiv or R Ovadia when they were alive?
Yabia: Is it possible that there is a chest of gold buried underneath your house? If there is, should everyone who doesn’t know about it refer to you as a millionaire?
@yabia: As I posted above, there have been gedolai hador ever since Moshe Rabbainu. The Rambam lists the leaders of each generation from Moshe Rabbainu to Rav Ashi. There’s nothing contemporary about it. It is a fact, and a pivotal fact in Yiddishkeit. It was here in every generation.
Notice how it stopped at Rav Ashi? Why is that? In those days the leaders were unquestioned and they were at a very high spiritual level. We have so many factions today plus they are nowhere near the level of the Amoraim, much less Moshe
“Gadol HaDor is a not a thing. It’s a contemporary, Litvish invention”
And yet you use Chacham Ovadia as an example. It’s a globalism thing now that we have mass communication. By the way, I believe “posek hador” was said in regards to the Chasam Sofer, so it’s not totally new. The only thing new today is the concept of it applying internationally, which is played up much more on YWN than is the reality.
You will not find the phrase “posek hador” used anywhere in any meaningful way. The Tzitz Eliezer uses it all over the place in his titles, and either the Teshuvos Maharshal writes it among the titles to the Ramah, or the Teshuvos Ramah about the Maharshal. I forget. But in any case, the title connotes no halachic status.
Rav Moshe isn’t always the final word in America either. Roshei Yeshiva and Poskim, such as Rav Hutner, Rav Eli Meyer Bloch of Telz, the Debreciner Rav, the Chelkas Yaakov and others, sided with the Satmar Rebbe over Rav Moshe regarding the obligatory size of a mechitzah in a shul, and/or the permissibility of artificial insemination, which were the two big disagreements that those Gedoim had in halacha. It was indeed Rav Hutner who approached the Satmar Rav asking him to write a refutation to Rav Moshe’s psak about the Mechitzos.
Godol is a relative term; it means someone who stands out among his generation in greatness, which is measured in terms of Torah knowledge, and righteousness. There is no measurable threshold beyond which you are categorically a “godol”, like there is when a person gets a medical degree and becomes a “doctor.” Being that the term is relative, different people apply it to different levels for people, and even among those who are commonly referred to as Gedolim, they are not all the same. Rav Shach was a Godol, but he was not the Chazon Ish, for example.
Yes Sephardim adopted many of the meshugas of their Ashkenazic brethren.
Yabia:
After World War II the Ashkenazic Gedolim and Yeshivos built up the Sefardic children and community in Torah, Rabbonus and Yiddishkeit until the Sefardim were able to establish their own strong yeshivos and chareidishkeit.
Yabia Omer,
False but ignorant
start with oneWhen they were being Maspid Rabbeinu Yitzchak Elchanan at his Levaya 1896, They mourned
him as the Rashkabaha”g
When the Darshan was asked [Translated] How come he wouldn’t call him gadol hador?
response was “Because Reb Yehoshua Leib is alive [in Yerushalayim]”!Yabia Omer:
You might as well be talking to a wall for all the good it will do you. The “worship” of “gedolim, poskei hador, sar hatorah” etc demonstrates the truth of what the Rambam wrote in the Moreh about the difficulty of weaning people off Avodah Zarah.
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