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I think people mistake quiet for nebby. Whether quiet or not, a girl must manage to convince the guy that she is not totally out of it. Some girls who talk too much may also be making up for a lack of anything substantial to say. Like the old saying goes, keep talking until you think of something to say.
EDITED
I have now contributed many pearls of wisdom to this conversation, so please think about them and review for the rest of the day.
“I think people mistake quiet for nebby. Whether quiet or not, a girl must manage to convince the guy that she is not totally out of it.”
You’re right that people mistake quiet for nebby, the problem is they can’t convince their date of anything if they’re not getting dates b/c someone thinks they’re nebby. I think it’s a problem in the way their being presented.
I used to be a very quiet teenager when i was younger, and it wasnt because i lacked personality or anything. i was just simply too shy to join in with the other people around me. it used to get me in to a lot of trouble, cuz people would think i was just some dull person, but my friends knew i was a lot of fun too be around and we had great fun times together, even wacky ones like evreyone else. even in school it would pose a problem cuz teachers would call on me to answer and i would totally blank out. they would get upset, assuming i didnt the information, but meanwhile i knew it better than half the students sitting in class that didnt even review the night before. most quiet girls, imo, are like that. they just need time to get comfortable til they could open up and be themselves. a quiet girl shouldn’t be given any less of a chance than a louder girl. it she’s quiet it just means she needs an extra date or two to open up, which ISN’T BAD! people need to look beyond what they see, it would take away a lot of pain for these girls (yes, it very painful wanting to be yourself and let out of your box, but you just cant bring yourself to do it cuz your too embarrassed. sounds childish, but its true)
Anyone ever noticed how MANY quiet girls suddenly become not so quiet after they’re married. Marriage brings some kind of self confidence to the girls and many girls’ true personality really shine only once they’re married.
Many? I would even say all. It’s true, though. i don’t even think my family realized my true personality til i got married
Yes, I agree that this is often true. I have seen it happen to many of my children’s friends of whom I thought as being shy or quiet.
What about the guys? Every quiet guy I know opened up more after marriage, to different extents.
There’s a saying in Yiddish “m’ken nisht a mench biz m’lebt mit im” – you don’t know a person until you live with him.
I can think of quite a few people (including myself) that could be described by others as “quiet,” “shy,” and “reserved.” However, I can also tell you that most of these people have plenty to say and can even be quite hyper at times – just give them a chance to get comfortable.
But the “quiet” boys and girls also have to be considerate of the person their dating. It’s very difficult to carry a conversation with someone who doesn’t volunteer any information and only responds with one word answers, such as “yes” and “no,” when asked questions in an effort to engage in a conversation.
i agree with simcha man. I’m not a dentist, I dont enjoy pulling teeth on dates.
I understand some people are quiet but on a date i someone asks you a question you have to open up. A good idea might be to buy a book of questions, this is useful for talkative people as well because everyone has awkward pauses and certain questions can give you a great insight into someone.
BTDATER: where can i find such a book?
Bodek: There are a few frum female bloggers (gasp) who have posted lists of things to talk about on dates that will probably be more relevant to shidduch dating than most books.
yeah – now that ur reminding me, but no one posted specific questions. they were more general…. it would be interesting to find a whole book filled with questions to ask on a date.
FWIW, when I first started dating my wife, I made sure to have a few topics in my head to talk about in case the conversation stalled.
The Wolf
Wolfishmusings: It is the boys the job to keep the conversation flowing, so you did the right thing.
It is the boys the job to keep the conversation flowing
I don’t agree with that at all. It’s no one’s “job” to keep the conversation flowing.
I had a vested interest in keeping it going (because I *really* liked the girl), and so I did. But it wasn’t my “job” to do so.
The Wolf
Bodek: The boys should think it’s their job to keep the conversation flowing, but so should the girls, conversation needs to be two-sided and a it’s not good for a girl to rely on the boy to keep the conversation going . BTW in my previous post I was talking about blogs other than the CR where they do talk about specific questions, apparently I’m not allowed to give you the link.
The Gemorah says that Hashem gave the girls 9 barrels of talk while the boys only got 1. So I definitely think it is the girls job to keep the convo going.
Why is it anyone’s “job?” Both parties should have a vested interest in keeping the conversation going.
The Wolf
OK, OK, i got the message…
so where can i find such a book?
Who needs a book? I’ll give you ten topics you can discuss on dates off the top of my head:
Experiences growing up
Relationship with family members
Tastes in music
Funny stories that happened to you
What you expect out of married life
Foods you like/dislike
Hobbies, interests, passions, pet peeves
Expectations regarding learning, working, etc.
People you admire
and, of course, the YWN Coffeeroom 🙂 (ok, so the last one’s a joke)
The Wolf
Wolf, there’s nothing wrong with talking about the CR on dates, especially if there are interesting topics that can be discussed. What better way to spend a date then to discuss the shidduch crisis, age gap, etc.
even quiet girls have to make certain sacrifices and act a little more open than they may feel comfortable, on dates, because hopefully they are talking to their potentional spouces and they should try to act as such, ad eventually they will get comfortable, all they have to do is give them selves over a little and with a little cooperation on they boys part things should go smoothly.
AZOI:IS: In my experience it’s more common for girls to demand outgoing, lively guys, than the other way around. Guys want the girl to be friendly and able to hold a conversation, girls care more about the singing, dancing and popularity.
WolfishMusings: Thanks for ideas…
Mod #?: “Wolf, there’s nothing wrong with talking about the CR on dates, especially if there are interesting topics that can be discussed. What better way to spend a date then to discuss the shidduch crisis, age gap, etc. “
there are alot of great topics here in the CR – as long as one doesn’t mention where they got their opinions from – it should be fine 😉
Wolf, there’s nothing wrong with talking about the CR on dates
Yeesh…
I didn’t say anything was wrong with it. It was just a lame attempt at humor. Don’t read too much into it.
The Wolf
Agreed. There is lots in the coffeeroom that can be talked about on dates. I dont see why this should be a problem.
Oh and it is the guys job to keep the conversation going.
nothing against quiet people, but if you happen to be quiet, make urself more outgoing! we all have those things that wer not so good at and that’s what life is all about – we have to make ourselves normal. it’s not normal to be too quiet and its not normal to be too loud and not give other people the chance to talk. for some of us, we need to learn how to get out there and socialize and become more outgoing and some of us need to learn how to listen (and i mean really listen! good listeners are hard to come by…).
whatever the case is, if someone is born quiet, they dont have to stay that way. u can go places that force you to be more sociable, invite urself to ppl fr shabbos..give a speech in front of a crowd etc…. ull be so much happier never mind dating…
and yes it is hard when ppl have to pull teeth. u might know urself but the other person doesnt know you. theres nothing more frustrating than trying to figure out what someone is thinking.. and awkward moments of silence are not enjoyable to anyone… granted, some ppl have an easier time, but personalities are not static. it takes work but they can change…
nothing against quiet people, but if you happen to be quiet, make urself more outgoing! we all have those things that wer not so good at and that’s what life is all about – we have to make ourselves normal.
Amen!
I actually used to be extremely quiet and shy. I was always very uncomfortable in large crowds (as in by weddings and the like). Eeees (bless her heart) has been instrumental in drawing me out of my shell. While I am still somewhat uncomfortable in large gatherings, I have learned how to socialize and how to put my discomfort aside when appropriate.
The Wolf
Oh and it is the guys job to keep the conversation going.
And where did you get that from? It’s not anyone’s “job.”
The Wolf
“Oh and it IS the guys job to keep the conversation going.
And where did you get that from? It’s not anyone’s “job.”
The guy should be the one to start the conversation, and have some interesting topics to discuss.
But you can not have a one sided conversation.
Of course the girl has to do all she can to keep the date going smoothly, and bring up her own topics for discussion as well.
Bodek,
It’s not anyone’s “job” to start the conversation or to “keep it going.” Both parties should have a vested interest in having a pleasant and interesting conversation.
The Wolf
In more heimish circles it is the accepted thing for the boy to start the conversation. For the girl to start would be pretty disrespectful.
I have a very chassidishe co-worker that said in her circles the boy usually starts off with a small “vort” or somthing to break the ice.
Yes, i know this is quite extreme, but it just proves my point…
In more heimish circles it is the accepted thing for the boy to start the conversation. For the girl to start would be pretty disrespectful.
Why is it inherently disrespectful for a girl to start a conversation?
Yes, i know this is quite extreme, but it just proves my point…
No, it only shows that it perhaps applies in a specific subculture of Judaism. It does not prove your point across the board.
The Wolf
I give up! I’m getting back to work now… good luck finding someone else to argue with…;)
good luck finding someone else to argue with…;)
Was my question of “Why is it inherently disrespectful for a girl to start a conversation?” so out of line and unreasonable?
The Wolf
In more heimish circles it is the accepted thing for the boy to start the conversation. For the girl to start would be pretty disrespectful.
It isn’t just like that in heimish circles. This is also true in yeshivish circles and frum sfardic circles (i.e. Ateret Torah.)
BODEK- in chassidishe circles boys do not start with a ‘vort’! Please!!
It is true that the boys starts the talking but no dvar torah!
This Co-worker of mine is from a ultra, ultra orthodox – read- chassidish community.
she said she started laughing quietly when the boy (now her husband) started with the vort – she thought it was funny that he was following all the “rules.” It was not much of a conversation starter, but it definitely broke the ice.
I agree that this would not work for most people… just FYI…
No one has yet answered *why* it’s disrespectful for the girl to start talking first.
The Wolf
Wolf- its disrespectful because its the accepted thing that the boy starts.
No… that may make it improper, but not disrespectful. There is a difference between the two.
Oh well… I wonder what circle of the netherworld I’m going to go to because I allowed Eeees to speak to me first…
The Wolf
Wolf: Doing something improper is disrespectful.
Wolf: Doing something improper is disrespectful.
I don’t agree… but it’s not worth arguing the matter.
The Wolf
Why is it the “accepted thing” that the boy has to start the conversation?
The Wolf
Perhaps because halachicly a wife has to listen to her husband. And a king goes before a queen.
Girls should be taught to be more outgoing and full of life rather that to be a shayna maidel and be quiet and secluded they”ll have more friends throughout the school years and it will definitely benefit when they are of shidduch age.
WOLF: in the chassidishe circles it’s very different. The boy and girl just meet once or twice for a very formal talk.
Automatically, if the conversation is kept formal(so not to bring closeness between a boy and girl), then the conversation doesn’t flow too good.
Therefore, it has been accepted that the boy starts, and the conversation continues from there. Otherwise it would be awkward to meet and just wait until one starts to talk.
Perhaps because halachicly a wife has to listen to her husband.
That works both ways… ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????, ?????? ?????????
The Wolf
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