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January 10, 2010 4:43 am at 4:43 am #591076WhyNotMEMember
Hey, I’m a senior in highschool currently and I’ve felt the burden of looking for a yeshiva for next year and its really getting to me. I have a few issues. First, I currently go to Chofetz Chaim I switched from a co-ed highschool for 11th grade. I have nothing against CC but I feel like they’re trying to brainwash me based on what I hear from other yeshivas also I feel like every single rebbe is biased into me going to CC. R’ Shaya Cohen came to my school a few weeks ago and I was arguing with him for a solid hour about CC and he basically said CC is the only yeshiva now adays where you learn how to learn. On the other hand if I ask people from other yeshivas they all say that other yeshivas can in fact learn better then CC. So its pretty confusing.
Another issue is Israel vs. America. I don’t really care where I go to yeshiva I just wanna go to the place where I’ll grow the most and be the best learner I can be. Rebbeim in my school say “Israel has too many distractions blablabla stay in America and go to WITS and R’ Zakay’s Shiur.” I feel like none of them care whats best for me they just want me to go to chofetz chaim. Note: I am NOT a CC hater I just wanna go to the best place possible and just learn. I love learning and I hope to learn for the next 120 years straight but coming from a co-ed highschool I’m lacking the skills I need to learn seriously so I wanna go to a place where I can build them up the fastest and then after that just learn and learn and learn. I actually googled CC vs other yeshivas and I found this site so I’m hoping I can get some answers. Thanks in advance everyone
January 10, 2010 5:22 am at 5:22 am #673973bombmaniacParticipantfirst of all…which branch are you in. second of all he is right chofetz chaim is closest to what yeshivos used to be…third of all the derech halimud is great…fourth of all the bochurim are very nice…fifth of all you will probably be a better person by staying there…sixth of all…why not stay there?
not knowing anything about you and really why you dont like chofetz chaim…its kinda hard to recommend a yeshiva without actually knowing you…but here goes.
i think you really can gain learning skills in a chofetz chaim…but maybe wits just isnt for you. there are more branches than wits…look around, go for a week, look around.
dont let anyone bully you into joining a certain yeshiva or staying in a certain yeshive, but before you decide or write off a yeshiva you should probably go and check them out:) by the way…you could probably find a yeshiva in israel better suited to your purposes, id recommend looking into that.
January 10, 2010 6:11 am at 6:11 am #673974chesednameParticipantthis is a question for your local orthodox rabbi.
good luck
January 10, 2010 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #673978bombmaniacParticipantso criticize away…there is free speech (to an extent) allowed on this forum…im giving the pros of chofetz chaim as i know them (as a person who went there and had a great experience) but the cons are simply, maybe chofetz chaim just isnt for you. as for r’ shaya cohen…hehehe…he must have said “there are many mekomos of torah but CC is the only yeshiva” lol he has a point, its the closest to a real yeshiva experience (in terms of what yeshivos used to be, and in terms of a personal relationship with your rebbeim) that you will see almost anywhere. but like chesedname said, you have to discuss this with your rav (or your current rebbi who will be less biased than r’ shaya cohen) i know my rebbi didnt overadvertize CC if he felt it wasnt the right yeshiva for the bochur. we cant really help you here because we dont really know you, we only know about our yeshiva experiences…but every person is different and every person needs something else from their yeshiva.
January 10, 2010 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #673979HenochMemberWhat do your parents feel? Have you spoken to the Rov of your shul?
January 11, 2010 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #673980shlomozalmanMemberThere’s nothing wrong with a specific yeshiva thinking it’s the best, I wouldn’t expect otherwise. But to say that it’s the only yeshiva where you learn how to learn must be a joke. Really? 98% of the yeshiva world is populated by boys who never learned how to learn? How arrogant can you get?
Furthermore, to say that it’s the only yeshiva the way yeshivas used to be is a bigger joke. Which old time yeshiva is Chofetz Chaim like? Volozhin? Telz? Slabodka? Mir? Ramailes? Lublin? Slonim? The list is endless and the answer is none of the above.
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January 11, 2010 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #673981bombmaniacParticipantthe list is not endless and only one of the above applies…the answer is…(drumroll) slabodka
January 11, 2010 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #673982frummonseyMemberI have a similar problem. My son wants to go to a Yeshivah in Eretz Yisroel, but I don’t know much about it. He can’t discuss this with his Rabe’eim, asa they really want to keep him there. The Yeshiva is Birchas Mordechai in Beitar Illit.Is there a web site for Yeshivos,or does anybody know how I can find out more? Please help
I’ll check back ay the coffee room to get a response
frummonsey
January 11, 2010 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #673983shlomozalmanMemberI beg to differ. Other than spiffy clothing and learning some mussar, there is little in common. The greatest of the Slabodka talmidim, Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky,Rav Yaakov Yitzchak Ruderman,and Rav Yitzchok Hutner, all could claim to have headed yeshivas in the Slabodka tradition. In Slabodka there was no specific derech in learning (a quote from Rav Kaminetsky), and they certainly didn’t spend a whole zman on just a few blot. So to claim that Chofetz Chaim is a throwback to Slabodka is not true.
Did the students in Slabodka also go to college at night? No. Do they switch yeshivas in Chofetz Chaim every year or so? In Slabodka they did. Does Chofetz Chaim encourage their students to hear shiurim of gedolim in neighboring yeshivas? In Slabodka they did. Does Chofetz Chaim send out groups of boys to strengthen mussar in nonmussar yeshivas? In Slabodka they did. Besides, how many chess masters came out of Chofetz Chaim? In Slabodka it was what they did in their spare time. I suggest you read some books on Slabodka and yeshivas in Europe in general, you will see very little in common with Chofetz Chaim.
January 11, 2010 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #673984arcParticipantOther yeshivos learn better doesnt mean that they’re right fir you.
Learning better means a higher level; CC teaches you how to learn and if you dont know yet then the other yeshivos arent right for you.
January 11, 2010 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #673985jphoneMemberSomeone is all up in arms over Chafetz Chaim.
January 11, 2010 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #673986chofetzchaimMemberHere is an answer written by a friend of mine:
The Rosh Hayeshiva zt”l didn’t want “brainwashed” students. He wanted students who could think for themselves while still respecting Daas Torah. The derech halimud is designed to teach people analytical and critical thinking skills-the exact opposite of a brainwashed automaton.
Another crucial aspect to the yeshiva is its imparted hashkafah. This means that since chachamim are able to see and understand things that lay people cannot, it pays to listen to what they have to say.
The proof is in the pudding, of course. Let us examine some of his hashkafa in light of current issues facing klal yisroel. We’ll see how krum his viewpoints really are, and if they improve or worsen the situation.
The Rosh hayeshiva zt”l was a big believer in everyone having a kesher with a rebbe. Compare this to today’s situation where many crucial decisions in regards to shidduchim and divorce are made by individuals themselves or their chevra, as they have no rebbe.
The Rosh hayeshiva zt”l felt that people need to learn mussar every day, even great rabbonim, to avoid the snares of the yetzer hara. Compare this to the big chillul Hashem roiling the Jewish blogosphere.
The Rosh Hayeshiva zt”l said that one must be scrupulously honest with taxes, and one should never defraud another entity even if it’s gentile. Compare this to the sad matzav in the summer when many frum people were arrested for fraud. How many fathers would be home with their children instead of in jail if they had my rebbe zt”l as their rebbe?
The Rosh Yeshiva’s litmus test for every action was, even if it’s legal, how would it look on the front page of the New York Times? Compare this to some of the incidents that actually made the front page of the Times-intercine fighting, massive chilulei hashem caused by hareidi protests turned violent, etc. How much less chillul Hashem would there be if they were following my Rosh yeshiva zt”l?
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January 11, 2010 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #673987bombmaniacParticipantwhat sheichus chessmasters?!? as for switching yeshivos..we do, we switch branches. plus the derech halimud and hashkafos in other yeshivos are just so out of touch sometimes with CC that people dont switch, and by the way i know many CC guys who DO attend other yeshivos. in slabodka did they go to college at night…as for that. in slabodka i doubt they had the opportunities that we now have with touro and the like. we have the opportunity to attend a seperate college full of mostly jews. i doubt they had that there.
as for the derech halimud, we dont claim that our DERECH HALIMUD comes from slabodka…we say our emphasis on mussar is from slabodka. our derech halimud comes more from the chofetz chaim (who was r’ dovid’s uncle i believe) and by the way…what you said about a few blatt…that is just a stereotype. we do cover ground…just covering ground is not our main objective in iyun. our main objective is to gain as much of an understanding, and reach the true pshat in the sugya we are dealing with. to cover ground we have bekiyus. although let it be said we go in depth in our bekiyus too,,,but we cover a lot more ground. as for sending out groups of boys to other yeshivos…may we be zoche
January 12, 2010 3:42 am at 3:42 am #673988WhyNotMEMemberhaha wow this is getting heated. Let’s take it from the top…
Chesedname: my local orthodox rabbi doesn’t even know my name I doubt he can decide what yeshiva I go to with confidence.
Haifagirl: I have a hunch you’re a girl, I dunno what gives it away lol. but no offense I don’t think you could judge how good CC guys are in at learning vs other yeshivas, which leads me to my next point.
Someone can do daf yomi 2 times and know shaas cold and can quote us gemaras from who knows where and we’ll all ooh and ahh but I don’t think that’s considered learning. It takes a Lamdan to know one. so I personally don’t feel that I have the ability to judge which yeshiva produces better learners…which is why I’m asking you guys 🙂
Henoch: hahaha my dad wants me to go to gush!!! so yes I’ve spoken to my parents and I definitely do not like what they say.
Shlomozalman: That’s exactly what I feel, if CC is so great where are all it’s gedolie hador, and also does that mean that the 5000 people in the mir don’t know how to learn? somethings a bit krum there which is kinda ironic because CC is so against krum-ness
arc: by first year beis medresh I don’t think anyone knows how to learn. Does that mean everybody should go to CC until they learn how to learn? and also who says you can’t learn to learn in other yeshivas?
ChofetzChaim: I like the quote but I feel like R’ Shaya Cohen said that lol…Just kidding. I do agree with the quote but does that disqualify all other yeshivas and make CC the only one that equips you with the tools to battle the nisyonos we face today?
Bombmaniac: I agree with you that CC’s style of learning is very appealing, I actually enjoy it a lot, but then again I like learning in general. You could stick me in a bais yaakov navi class and I’ll enjoy it lol (maybe not but you get my point). I was in the Mir in Israel in the summer and they learn solid there as well. I’m just trying to get a grasp of the pros and cons of most major yeshivas out there. I don’t necessarily wanna hear a giant bashing of CC.
Thanks everyone for the CONSTRUCTIVE input so far its much appreciated.
January 12, 2010 5:03 am at 5:03 am #673989JotharMemberWhynotme, whatever the truth is about Chofetz Chaim, you have to be happy where you are. It sounds like you aren’t happy there, and perhaps you will learn better where you’re happier. Rabbi Dovid Harris Shlit”a has his kids in Lakewood, so clearly he believes there’s learning outside of Chofetz Chaim.
January 12, 2010 5:51 am at 5:51 am #673990chofetzchaimMembershlomozalman wrote:
I beg to differ. Other than spiffy clothing and learning some mussar, there is little in common. The greatest of the Slabodka talmidim, Rav Aharon Kotler, Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky,Rav Yaakov Yitzchak Ruderman,and Rav Yitzchok Hutner, all could claim to have headed yeshivas in the Slabodka tradition. In Slabodka there was no specific derech in learning (a quote from Rav Kaminetsky), and they certainly didn’t spend a whole zman on just a few blot. So to claim that Chofetz Chaim is a throwback to Slabodka is not true.
1. Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L, when encouraging the yeshiva to open up a branch in Miami Beach, told Rabbi Bentzion Chait YBLC”T that The Rosh Hayeshiva, Rav Henoch Leibowitz ZT”L, and his father were the ONLY ones who ran a Yeshiva in the derech of Slabodka. Rav Ruderman ZT”L never claimed to be running a Slabodka-style yeshiva. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L, his focus on Torah “lishmah” as opposed to going out and making a difference in the world, and his kana’us were NOT Slabodka style. Rav Aharon ZT”L never claimed to be following the Slabodka style either. Rav Hutner ZT”L switched to Machshavah because he felt that Americans couldn’t handle mussar. Rav Kaminetzky ZT”L never headed a yeshiva- he was always an employee and was under someone else’s thumb. However, he spoke very approvingly about the fact that the yeshiva kept up the Slabodka Mesorah of mussar. In fact, he encouraged the yeshiva to open a branch in Miami despite the fact that a relative of his already had a yeshiva there! You can speak to Rabbi Bentzion Chait to verify this, or speak to one of Rav Kaminetzky’s sons.
Slabodka for many (including Rav Dovid ZT”L) was a “finishing school”. Rav Dovid ZT”L went there after getting his Derech Halimud from the Grana”T in Radin. Chofetz Chaim doesn’t claim to follow Slabodka’s derech in limud. The shiurim by Rav Moshe Mordechai Epstein ZT”L were bekiyus-oriented, and many from Slabodka went to the other non-mussar Slabodka yeshiva, Knesses Beis Yitzchok (which later relocated to Kaminetz) to hear shiur from Rav Baruch Ber ZT”L. The Alter of Slabodka ZT”L was very much into the belief that talmidim should develop in their own way, and that the yeshiva shouldn’t be a “sdoym betel” where the inhabitants are shrunk or stretched to fit the mold. So Slabodka didn’t have a derech halimud. What it DID have, however, was a derech of mussar, hashkafah, and seichel, and that is what Chofetz Chaim claims to follow. Rav Leizer Yudel Finkel ZT”L told Rav Henoch Leibowitz ZT”L that his father Rav Dovid Leibowitz ZT”L was one of the closest talmidim of The Alter ZT”L. It makes sense, then, that Rav Dovid would try to follow in his illustrious Rebbe’s footsteps.
shlomozalman wrote:
Did the students in Slabodka also go to college at night? No. Do they switch yeshivas in Chofetz Chaim every year or so? In Slabodka they did. Does Chofetz Chaim encourage their students to hear shiurim of gedolim in neighboring yeshivas? In Slabodka they did. Does Chofetz Chaim send out groups of boys to strengthen mussar in nonmussar yeshivas? In Slabodka they did. Besides, how many chess masters came out of Chofetz Chaim? In Slabodka it was what they did in their spare time. I suggest you read some books on Slabodka and yeshivas in Europe in general, you will see very little in common with Chofetz Chaim.
There was no college in Europe that was easy to attend. However, the Alter of Slabodka was not opposed to people making a parnassah. Chofetz Chaim does send its talmidim out to strengthen branches. However, the days when people begged the Alter to send talmidim to establish their yeshiva or break the hold of the anti-mussarniks is over. Following in the tradition of a school doesn’t mean a bling mimicry. it means, “What would the Alter do if he were here?”, and applying the wisdom to new situations. Today’s Chofetz Chaim talmidim play basketball in their spare time, or read Yeshiva World. Different dor, same mesorah. Why should recreational activities be mimicked? We don’t wear canes or top hats anymore, even though they did it in Slabodka. Bottom line- If Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky could declare that Chofetz Chaim is the only place following the Slabodka mesorah, then I have no problem saying it.
January 12, 2010 6:06 am at 6:06 am #673991bombmaniacParticipantr’ shaya cohen believs that we have the best derech halimud and derech in mussar…that is not to say that he believes all other yeshivos are worthless. basically heres what he says. there are many mekomos of torah…but chofetz chaim is the only YESHIVA. thats what he says. he has a point to a certain extent, but he is not saying that all other yeshivos are worthless and not worth the bricks they are built from. he is simply saying that he believes the CC derech is the best and optimal. not that the others are wrong..just that they have what to work on. no one in their right mind can say that peopel in the mir dont know how to learn…its just differences in the derech halimud which he feels chofetz haim has right. by the way…mir and CC are pretty close seeing as the rosh yeshiva and rav berenbaum were quite close..
as for whether CC is the only yeshiva that equips you for the nisyonos of daily life…the answer is a definite no…but it is the BEST yeshiva to equip you for the nisyonos of daily life.
and by the way…the reason me and chofetzchaim are pushing it so hard is because of all the bashing…
Please take this with a grain of salt, realizing that it is from bombmaniac. I doubt that he is properly saying over what R’ Shaya Cohen holds. – YW Moderator
January 12, 2010 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #673992yeshivabucharMemberi dont understand cc is a very good yeshiva
January 12, 2010 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #673994mravenMembermost of what i wanted to say has already been said so for the most part just re: bombmaniac and chofetzchaim (bombmaniac im still trying to figure out if i know u lol) but here goes my two cents: 1. kimat all of todays major yeshivas were started by slabodka talmidim and if you look at who the alter felt was most raoi to succeed him in harbotzas hatorah et. all, historically it was r” dovid leibowitz, founder of the chofetz chaim yeshiva dynasty, and all of those gedolim (except possibly r” aron) would not dispute that which seemingly would be a pretty decent raya as to the fact that chofetz chaim is excuse me for sounding haughty but the best yeshiva 2. to jothar- yes r” dovid harris has sons in lakewood but that doesnt neccesarily means he agrees with their derech halimud or mussar, it just means that he feels his sons are old enough to make their own wise decisions 3. many branches have their own things to offer even within the system for instance (all the following are personal opinion) brooklyn seeems to produce better learners than the other branches, wits has a more intense program if thats what your looking for, miami has rabbi luban and rabbi goldman two of the greatest rebbeim available, dallas (my yeshiva) has the absolutely amazing rebbeim great guys and a lot to do outside of seder in terms of healthy outlets, ner aryeh (la) has a very small olam with much personal attention (however the attentions prob tru of most branches lol), along with many other branches with their own personalities and whatever, all im saying is a. dont look at wits as your only option in the system (boruch hashem lol jk) and b. dont just leave the “cult” because you feel like your being brainwashed, actually look into the sugya and see whats best for you…btw im so curious what branch your currently in
January 12, 2010 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #673995gavra_at_workParticipantI actually would echo HaifaGirl, many yeshivos do not prepare you for the outside (if you need to go), CC will.
That being said, you still have no mastered a derech HaLimud in 12th Grade. There are many yeshivos out there with many different drachim. Be openminded and do a lot of research.
If you have decided at age 17-18 that you will be learning for the rest of your life, and refuse to prepare for any other outcome, then please ignore my comments, go straight to Ponevitch, and immerse yourself in limud Hatorah 24-7.
January 12, 2010 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #673996volvieMemberMir is more flexible in terms of the type of learning style and hashkofos the students have. Brisk is very monolithic, and opinionated when it comes to both. They have their own shitas and they are very strong minded about them. Culturally, they are also very European.
In both learning and Haskofo, Brisk and Chofetz Chaim are an odd couple, and the American Yankee boy type of of Ben Torah that comes from Chofetz Chaim is on the opposite side of the spectrum from the typical “alter litvak” in Brisk.
Rav Aharon Kotler and Rav Ruderman both learned in Slabodka. Rabbi Elya Svei is a talmid of Rav Aharon; Rabbi Yaakov Weinberg was a talmid of Rav Ruderman. One thing that Rabbi Svei and Rabbi Weinberg both agreed upon it is that they are NOT following the same Mesorah.
In Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim they employ a derech halimud that is considered incorrect in many other Yeshiva circles. They will respond that their derech halimud came from their Rebbe who got it from his father/Rebbe who got it from the Chofetz Chaim. Yet others will claim that the approach to learning there bears no resemblance to the Chofetz Chaim’s, and if the Chofetz Chaim would be alive today he would be the first to disagree with them.
I heard from a CC rabbi that the Chofetz Chaim colored shirt thing is supposedly an offshoot of the approach that existed in the Slabodka Yeshiva, where Rabbi Lebowitz, the CC Rosh Yeshiva, learned. They focused a lot there on what’s known as Gadlus HaAdam, the greatness of man, and one of the reasons was because in those days Yeshiva guys were considered lowly and it was hard to feel proud to be one. So they made them dress a little spiffy amongst other things, to boost their morale and self-image. The CC people sort of carried that over, and to them, it manifests in their wearing colored shirts. If you ask me, it doesn’t accomplish anything nowadays and just serves to make CC different in the eyes of the rest of the Yeshiva world. I am nobody to tell them what to do, but I dont see what they’re gaining.
Regarding Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, I heard the following: but please note that (a) I do not necessarily share all the views below, and (b) not everyone who does not think of the Yeshiva they way you believe they ought to does either – the following are only general answers; some may hold like some, others like others, and still others may have additional issues. The following only serves as a general idea.
The reason some do not consider the Yeshiva on the optimal level, is because:
(a) They go too slow. Tearing apart Rishonim and Achronim has a limit. Knowing Gemora and knowing a lot of it of it has value that they consider to be neglected in your Yeshiva. “B’iyun” doesnt mean to spend all that time tearing apart and rebuilding the Rishinim and Achronim that much. If so, ain l’dovor sof. Your spending time discussing the ins and out of the Meforshim they consider beyond the point of “Iyun” and way into plain “kvetching” and ill spent time.
(b) The emphasis on the Achronim and the authority given to them – especially the later Achronim – and the accompanying time spent on “tearing them apart and putting them back together” is considered by them a waste of time, and not proper procedure in learning. There is a certian amount of importance that should be placed on Gemar, on Rishonim, on Achronim, and on the later Achronim. The proper recipe for how much weight each should carry, and how much time should be spent on each, and how much “iyun” each actually contains – is considered by those others as skewed in your Yeshiva (especially where it comes to later Achronim).
(c) The emphasis on the Rosh Yeshiva’s Shiur, the amount of time spent on it, and the value given to it (as always “muchrach”) is considered by those other places to be misplaced, the time ill spent, and the entire idea of emphasizing a Shiur to that point as a problem because it it purposeless to do that and counterproductive since what to emphasize and what not, and how much is considered an intergral part of learning.
(d) The above and similar misfocused learning methods constricts the students’ creativity, constricts his Torah focus on one narrow type of thinking thereby preventing him from developing his potential, especially since that potential may lie in learning differently than the single-minded way was taught to think.
This narrowness comes from the emphasis and over-value mainly on one particular rebbe’s Shiur (i.e. the Rosh Yeshiva) and secondarily, over-emphasis on late Achronim.
The end result of all this is, the way your Yeshiva and its students and alumni learn is not considered up to par with the rest of the Yeshivos. It certainly is different; they consider it worse.
(e) Hashkafically, the Yeshiva is considered to over emphasize going out into Chinuch and Kiruv as opposed to valuing learning for its own sake, and growing into a Gadol B’Torah.
(f) The same over emphasis and focus on one specific way of thinking applies to Divrei Agadita and Mussar as well.
In short, the Yeshiva is perceived by others, as taking the Torahs of the Rosh Yeshiva and his personal thought patterns and way of learning and making them into something much more than they actually are. By doing so, they end up lacking that which they could have had, in both learning and Hashkofa-knowledge, if they would have spent their energies acquiring it.
There are many different opinions as to what the right “derech” in learning is; simply put, a lot of the Yeshiva world disagrees with Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim in this respect, plus some other issues, as above.
That having been said, I would like to reiterate that neither I, nor anyone necessarily shares all the views above, in the exact form that I wrote them. There is no “official” handbook of the “Yeshivishe velt” that paskened on your Yeshiva. So any individual may think a bit more or less of any of the above. But in general, that is the situation.
Another, very very important thing. Nobody in the world, from one end of the Yehsivishe velt to the next, has anything but extreme admiration for the Middos and “ehrlichkeit” of the students that come from Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim. If there is any Yeshiva that is considered to “put out” great Baalei Middos and “mentchlicher” students, it would surely be Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, above any other.
January 13, 2010 1:19 am at 1:19 am #673997mravenMemberbtw to expound on what i said to jothar earlier: many gedolim have kids who are nebach mechalel shabbos, does that mean that they give credence to it?!?
January 13, 2010 3:21 am at 3:21 am #673998liddleyiddleMemberI’ve got a few things to say: First of all, WhyNotMe: You feel like they’re trying to brainwash you. The nature of the human being, when it believes strongly in something, is to instill that belief in others. I would guess (and this is just a guess) that if you were in a different Yeshiva whose rebbeim believed strongly in it, you would be experiencing a similar phenomenon.
In terms of “learning how to learn,” I obviously have not made the full “around the block” circuit, but it seems to me that this is something that is stressed in Chofetz Chaim and is not stressed in other Yeshivas. I’m not sure about this, but I think that Chofetz Chaim is the only (or one of the only) places to put it on a pedestal. If you don’t think it’s important, that’s your decision. But I don’t think that all the talk is just meaningless rhetoric.
In reference to Rabbi Zakai, I believe the adjective that I have heard most commonly describing him is “great.” I’m honestly not entirely sure about what that means (he seems like a very nice guy and a fine rebbi) but, seriously, that’s what everyone says. (And I’m referring to individuals who had him – not just what one person said and everyone else quotes.)
Also, as a teenager who “wants to learn and learn and learn,” you should just be aware that 1. most people can’t afford that; and 2. there are people who feel that way at some point but then change their minds.
Best of luck.
January 13, 2010 4:25 am at 4:25 am #674000WhyNotMEMemberBombmaniac: CC and the Mir are not close at all. Mir is one of the fastest paced yeshivas so I don’t know how you could say they’re similar. As for the moderator, that sounds like a direct quote from R’ Shaya Cohen so no need to take it with a grain of salt lol.
YeshivaBuchar: I never said it wasn’t a good yeshiva I just wanna know if it has the strong points that I’m looking for.
mraven: you’re comparing apples to oranges. you’re saying “since R’ Dovid ZTL was the successor of the alter…therefore chofetz chaim must be the best yeshiva” lol maybe I haven’t been learning in CC long enough but any thinking person would realize that doesn’t make sense. One thing has no shaychus to the other, or maybe I’m stupid I dunno please enlighten me. As for the whole yeshiva history I have no idea, who said slobadka was the best back in the day?
As for everyone telling me to do my research thats what I’m doing right now lol. I tried Google-ing it but there isn’t exactly a whole Wikipedia article on CC vs other yeshivas.
Gavra_at_work: I agree with you that I haven’t mastered a derech halimud, in fact I think I said that earlier. As for my future I just wanna do what I love, and I happen to love learning so it makes sense that I should learn no? besides the fact that its a mitzvah and good and all that stuff. I’m trying to be openminded about work in the future but I just don’t see it happening. So you’re saying if I just wanna learn then theres places better then CC?
That’s basically my whole Q. Humor me and let’s say that there’s a guy who wins the lottery and he could learn for the rest of his life and not work at all and support his whole family for the next 5 generations. Which yeshiva would be best for him?
to everyone asking what branch… I’m in the China branch
January 13, 2010 4:26 am at 4:26 am #674001JotharMembermRaven, are you actually comparing someone learning in a yeshiva with 6,000 talmidim to a mechalel shabbos? Does Rabbi Harris Shlit”a really view his children in Lakewood as mechallelei Shabbos?
January 13, 2010 4:48 am at 4:48 am #674002mravenMemberwhynotme im not sure i ujderstand the misunderstanding lol so im not commenting further and jothar i was hardly comparing the two just making a point
January 13, 2010 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #674005bombmaniacParticipantshlomozalman…why are you so against CC…have you had a bad experience??? as you should have seen chofetz chaim is like slabodka in many regards, it may not be perfect but it is close enough. asking what the alter would do simply means that we should filter our actions through a filter of mussar and yashrus. not everything that is mutar and legal should be done, simply because it is not YOSHER. its not an abstract question…it is a very practical one. if you are well grounded in the principles of mussar, you will be able to decide what is yosher and what isnt. i believe chofetzchaim posted above that we should think “what would this look like on the front page of the times” simply put…what do you think it would look like. true it may be technically allowed…but should you still do it? i see no reason not to think like that! if everyone thought like that we would have fewer problems in this world.
as for our supposed “inferiority complex”…it is no such thing. each yeshiva has things it is proud of, and we are proud of our set up. ie…our similarities to slabodka that is rarley if ever seen these days. what i mean to say is you rarely if ever see a yeshiva that has a clear mesorah, a clear derech in mussar and hashkafa. as for lakewood not allowing us into their elite club…whatever that means…ask yourself this question, is that mussardik??? is it mussardik to exclude a large group of jews from your world because they are from a different yeshiva? in chofetz chaim the answer is no…maybe by you the answer is yes, and that is sad.
as for the only place to learn how to learn. there are many yeshivos that dont have a set specific derech halimud. in many places, each rebbi chooses what he wants to do based on whim…or what he did when he was in yeshiva…we have a clear derech halimud, and therefore one can learn how to learn. how can you learn how to learn if the way to learn isnt clear?
i have been saying through all these posts that the purpose of me defending and pushing CC like this is only in response to all the bashing, this is not a plug for whynotme to remain in CC against his will.
January 13, 2010 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #674007yehudajMemberOh boy I can’t resist, though I should.
WhyNotME: how can you qualify “if I ask people from other yeshivas they all say that other yeshivas can in fact learn better then CC”. What does that even mean?? Kuli alma lo pligi CC has a derech halimud which is unique, in todays day and age. Theres is a huge emphasis on iyun and CC’s type of iyun. How can you compare to those who emphasize covering more blatt or a different understanding of iyun (ailu vailu)? Who is one to decide what is better let alone other yeshiva guys who obviously have a nigeya because that is the way they learn.
You have to ask yourself (push your buttons 😉 as to what works better for you. You are not going to get CC style iyun anywhere else.
In terms of R’ Cohen and it is hard to explain what he meant w/o hearing what he said in it’s entirety. But I have a feeling he was talking to YOU, and for you alone. Given your background and circumstances I assume his message was you just came from co-ed and are somewhat fragile yes you may feel very energized but your foundation as merely a teenager can’t be very strong especially given your circumstances. Hence the therefor don’t go bouncing between yeshivas, get settled irrelevant how you ended up where you are but lemaysa your in a CC branch and need stability! You need to be grounded. You are at risk of floating between yeshivas, you like this flavor you don’t like that one etc… CC is not alone, but there are a limited number of Yeshivas that do the whole “cycle” HS, BM, Kollel etc..A lot of yeshivas have HS and a couple years of BM then off to E”Y for a couple years then head to Lakewood. Running that system runs the risk of never getting a clear hadracha, you can end up with a chulent of different hashkofos and even worse may end up without a clear Rebbi muvhak to help you through life, most certainly the start of it (dating, marriage etc..). To me that is a clear cut advantage the system CC has and I am sure other yeshivas out there do this as well but this is not the “main stream” “mehalach” And since you are in such a system, and given your background you seem like you can use some stability. So stay put and enjoy the ride 🙂
To all the CC guys trying to push the “We’re the best and only yeshiva that can learn or learn mussar yada yada yada” Your embarrassing the rest of us. It is beyond ludicrous, and I will not enumerate on all the points, but talk like this is so distasteful, and more importantly WRONG! Ailu VAily Divray elokim chaim. And your talk just distances Achdus not encourages it, makes CC like a cult as I was saying it’s ridiculous!
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January 13, 2010 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #674008bombmaniacParticipantgranted alu v’alu divrei elokim chaim, and like i said im only posting all this in response to shlomozalman. nowhere did i say that CC is the only yeshiva that teaches mussar. every yeshiva has a mussar seder. i am simply saying that it is emphasized more in CC.
January 13, 2010 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #674010ZA FanMemberIn all honesty, every yeshiva has its positive and negatives and if you feel the in depth analysis that CC applies to its learning is not for you and is impeding your growth in learning, you should check out other yeshivos. Note, however, that the one thing you may be giving up by leaving the CC system is its stress on mussar and proper middos, which cannot be discounted and unfortunately appears to be lacking in many students that are products of other yeshivos. Derech eretz kadmah l’torah.
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January 14, 2010 2:34 am at 2:34 am #674012chofetzchaimMemberI don’t know what/how other yeshivas emphasize mussar, but from what I understand, Chofetz Chaim puts more emphasis on the Mussar Seder. We also keep the Slabodka derech of saying shmuzim that are muchrach from a chazal and working on those shmuzim.
January 14, 2010 4:17 am at 4:17 am #674013chofetzchaimMemberRabbi Paysach Krohn in a lecture he gave in Bal Harbour this past Shabbos said the following… when he goes to a bris he carries his tallis bag in one hand and his kit in the other and he does not have the ability to open the door on his own and yet no one ever opens the door for him save for one place. He said the only people who always open the door for him without fail and in matter of fact, they open the door for him as soon as they see him on the block are Chofetz Chaim bochurim!
January 15, 2010 3:58 am at 3:58 am #674014Just SmileParticipantThis thread is getting to be downright ridiculous.
I held my tounge but can’t any longer.
First off. I am a chofetz chaim guy. Brainwashed from birth. (But then again as they say – don’t you want to be brainwashed? It’s filthy. It should be washed.)
WhyNotMe – I don’t know who you are or what you are trying to do but it’s not to find out and do research about different Yeshivas. (Correction – I do know who you are, but that’s a different story.) Maybe it was an honest mistake but the YWN Coffeeroom, while I love it, isn’t exactly the place to get accurate information in regards to different Yeshivas. Proper research entails speaking to people, Rabbiem (from other Yeshivas also) about the Yeshivas they know and recommend. Not in a comparative way but have them discuss different options. Preferably find someone to talk to who knows you. Which Yeshiva to go to is based 100% on the guy that’s going there. There is no one Yeshiva that’s for everybody.
Take a look in your own family. (I did the answers for you in parentheses) Do you have older brothers? (yes) Are they different? (yes) Did they go to different places after high school? (yes) Even if they graduated from the same place in the same year? (yes)
Point being that everyone is different. Coming as a no name person with no information other then “I’m in a CC branch” is not exactly enough criteria to recomend a Yeshiva that fits your needs.(I should really just come over to you in person, but I’m in a different state.)
I am constantly pushing people to go out of Chofetz Chaim to other Yeshivas that are better for them. And btw – your principal does the same thing. (Ask him. He’s your Pal.)
With regard to Rabbi Cohen. All I can say is lol. You should hear more of his vaadim and you will begin to appreciate his style more. He is very radical and purposely takes things out of proportion. Ask any of the Bais Medrash guys in your branch. After Rabbi Cohen left the Rosh HaYeshiva gave a vaad specifically to “counteract and explain” rabbi Cohen. And everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. Don’t get all hung up on his words.
As for the comments above by the other unnamed people above – I’ve heard some smart things and some really dumb things.
(in nor particular order)
mraven and jothar – while mraven didn’t specifically compare lakewood to michalel shabbos, it was implied. mraven – don’t say things like that when they WILL get misconstrued and Jothar – you know what he meant.
yehudaj – thanks for that last paragraph – I was getting sick.
volvie – your points A B C D E and F are exactly the same – in a few words – they waist their time overemphasizing things they believe in. – That’s a haskafik difference between CC and the “Yeshiva Velt”. It’s not ain l’davor sof – there is a line – it;s just further then yours. As for point E specifically, I’m not sure how it’s possible to over emphasize Harbatzas Torah. Maybe I’ missing something but isn’t talmud torah k’neged kulam? Isn’t that what a person should do? And don’t say they push guys who should be in harbatas torah to be in harbatzas torah. Walk into any branch into any shmuz or discussion on this topic and the line you will always hear is “being a Rebbe is not for everyone”. There are other ways of doing what ever you can in harbatzas torah even if you are a regular working guy. I’m not a Rebbe. I have a regular job. Except I channel it for harbatzas torah. (WhyNotMe – we can discuss that point in person if you’d like.)
As for the white shirt thing, I’m not sure which CC Rebbe you are misquoting but I’ve never heard that and I was born knee deep in CC. They didn’t make the guys dress spiffy. That’s how people dressed. And look at any pictures from any Yeshiva in Europe you will see colored shirts and suits. It’s not just Slabodka. It’s funny how you sticked in the Gadlus Hadom thing because you made a complete cholent out of it. (If anything because of Gadlus Hadom you should wear a white shirt.) Wearing a white shirt is more choshuv. The more important a person gets the more likely it is he we wear a white shirt. It’s more dressy. That’s why even blue shirters wear a white shirt on Shabbos. CC is specifically against that as it gets a person to feel more choshuv then he really is. A regular Yeshiva guy constantly needs to work on getting better. Wearing a white shirt when u aren’t on that madreiga can potentially be harmful to certain people if they aren’t careful. Therefore the Yeshiva discourages wearing white shirts. First reach that madreiga then put the white shirt. (As for chitzonious meorer as hapnimius – that’s beyond the scope of the coffeeroom – ask your local CC Rabbi.) Being the fact that CC emphasizes gadlus hadom, they stress you should dress nicely. Of course if you are not limitted t white shirts you can dress more “spiffy”.
I’m done for now as I can’t type anymore – I hope I helped explain a bit.
And WhyNoTMe – let me know if you want to talk. I don’t push CC. 😉 (And I’ve known you for a while.)
January 15, 2010 4:27 am at 4:27 am #674015JotharMemberMraven, you meant to say that it’s not Rabbi Harris’ choice, but he tolerates it. A difference of degree from them being mechallelei shabbos, but not of essence.
January 15, 2010 5:09 am at 5:09 am #674017bombmaniacParticipantexactly what is a facher…and suppose he asked people in the community for their opinion…would you be opposed to that? no…so whats the difference? if he finds a yeshiva that he likes because of our posts then wouldn’t that be great? using the internet to help a fellow jew…what could be better?
January 15, 2010 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #674018chofetzchaimMemberPosting for a friend in response to Volvie:
This piece is lema’an ha’emes, and my apologies in advance to anyone who might be offended. It is not meant to offend anyone.
Volvie wrote:
Mir is more flexible in terms of the type of learning style and hashkofos the students have. Brisk is very monolithic, and opinionated when it comes to both. They have their own shitas and they are very strong minded about them. Culturally, they are also very European.
Correct. Whenever you have a mesorah, it’s important to understand why you do “B” instead of “B” when everyone else does “B”. Just like you explain to your kids why we’re Jewish instead of goyish, and why we’re frum instead of frei, and why we don’t go mixed swimming even though other with yarmulkes do, a good rebbe will explain to his talmidim why he does “A” instead of “B”. When shitas come from a rebbe with many years of learning under his belt instead of the yeshiva coffee room, then tend to be more correct. such is Daas Torah.
Volvie also wrote:
In both learning and Haskofo, Brisk and Chofetz Chaim are an odd couple, and the American Yankee boy type of of Ben Torah that comes from Chofetz Chaim is on the opposite side of the spectrum from the typical “alter litvak” in Brisk.
Correct. I have yet to find where in the torah it says “Thou shalt not be a Harry”. Everyone is entitled to learn Torah and become a lamdan, no matter how American. There is no mitzvah in the Torah to speak in a yeshivish accent and say “oy” instead of “o”.
Volvie further wrote:
In Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim they employ a derech halimud that is considered incorrect in many other Yeshiva circles. They will respond that their derech halimud came from their Rebbe who got it from his father/Rebbe who got it from the Chofetz Chaim. Yet others will claim that the approach to learning there bears no resemblance to the Chofetz Chaim’s, and if the Chofetz Chaim would be alive today he would be the first to disagree with them.
Rav Dovid got his derech from a melamed in Warsaw and the Grana”t, not the Chofetz Chaim ZT”L. As the Chofetz Chaim ZT”L didn’t give shiur it makes sense. It is clear from the gemara that there were distinct derachim in learning (Bavli vs. the Eretz Yisroel way, dbei Rabbi yishamel vs. Rabbi Akiva, etc), and that this continued throughout the rishonim (Ramban-Rashba-Ritva-Ran vs Baalei tosfos, etc) , it is clear that each place followed their rebbe muvhak and their own specific derech, and they didn’t just make a cholent of them. Chofetz Chaim didn’t make up the concept of a Rebbe Muvhak. As very few people today were alive when the Chofetz Chaim was, I find it hard to believe that anyone has the authority to say that the Chofetz Chaim would censure the yeshiva for its approach to learning.
Volvie further wrote:
I heard from a CC rabbi that the Chofetz Chaim colored shirt thing is supposedly an offshoot of the approach that existed in the Slabodka Yeshiva, where Rabbi Lebowitz, the CC Rosh Yeshiva, learned. They focused a lot there on what’s known as Gadlus HaAdam, the greatness of man, and one of the reasons was because in those days Yeshiva guys were considered lowly and it was hard to feel proud to be one. So they made them dress a little spiffy amongst other things, to boost their morale and self-image. The CC people sort of carried that over, and to them, it manifests in their wearing colored shirts. If you ask me, it doesn’t accomplish anything nowadays and just serves to make CC different in the eyes of the rest of the Yeshiva world. I am nobody to tell them what to do, but I don’t see what they’re gaining.
If the purpose of it was to gain favor in the eyes of the yeshivishe oilam, then it accomplishes nothing. However, the purpose is “conservative elegance”, that one dresses as a mentch whom the baalei battim would respect instead of as a “yeshiva bachur”. This derech raised the self-esteem of bachurim in europe, and caused the townspeople in Mir to start respecting the bnei yeshiva once Rav Leizer Yudel Finkel ZT”L went over there. As such it accomplishes plenty.
Volvie further wrote that other say:
The reason some do not consider the Yeshiva on the optimal level, is because:
(a) They go too slow. Tearing apart Rishonim and Achronim has a limit. Knowing Gemora and knowing a lot of it of it has value that they consider to be neglected in your Yeshiva. “B’iyun” doesnt mean to spend all that time tearing apart and rebuilding the Rishinim and Achronim that much. If so, ain l’dovor sof. Your spending time discussing the ins and out of the Meforshim they consider beyond the point of “Iyun” and way into plain “kvetching” and ill spent time.
The yeshiva does have a bekiyus seder where one is expected to cover ground. however, one can’t just quickly read an acharon and understand what he’s saying. The Maharsha and the Maharam wouldn’t write anythign that they didn’t go over in depth with their talmidim. Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L approvingly described the yeshiva’s derech as the “derech Hamaharam Schiff”. You just can’t figure out the depth of the Maharam Schiff with a cursory reading. Just because it’s not written in the style of the Griz’ notebooks doesn’t mean it’s not there. Rav Kaminetzky ZT”L was the paragon of emes, and wouldn’t say a lie to placate the yeshiva of his old chavrusa. Rav yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L also said that today’s Talmidim don’t have the proper respect for the words of the acharonim. As the acharonim are closer to Har Sinai than we are, it makes sense to be cautious when understanding their words. There is a reason Rabbi Akiva eiger didn’t just answer his kashyes with a “cheftza gavra” svara pulled out of a hat. His kahyas were based on emes, and sevaras pulled out of a hat which cannot be read into the gemara or rishon are just not emes.
Volvie further wrote that others say:
c) The emphasis on the Rosh Yeshiva’s Shiur, the amount of time spent on it, and the value given to it (as always “muchrach”) is considered by those other places to be misplaced, the time ill spent, and the entire idea of emphasizing a Shiur to that point as a problem because it it purposeless to do that and counterproductive since what to emphasize and what not, and how much is considered an intergral part of learning.
The Rosh spent his life hearing shiur from the maharm of Ruttenberg. We don’t find him running around Europe hearing shiur from different Rabbeim. We find that the Ritva was a talmid of the rashba. he didn’t go running to tzarfas to hear shiur from the later baalei Tosfos. That is the meaning of a rebbe muvhak. A rebeb teaches you what to say as well as what not to say. Working on the shiur (as opposed to hearing the shiur, saying “shkoyach” at the end, and moving on ) gives you a depth of understanding and an affinity toward emes that is just not possible with the “shkoyach” approach. Pirkei Avos stresses that everyone had one Rebbe Muvhak, not a menagerie of different Rabbeim. This is how you grow- by being able to observe a gadol up close and grow from his torah and middos instead of just being exposed to gedolim through Gadol cards or the signatures on a kol koreh.
Volvie further wrote that:
(d) The above and similar misfocused learning methods constricts the students’ creativity, constricts his Torah focus on one narrow type of thinking thereby preventing him from developing his potential, especially since that potential may lie in learning differently than the single-minded way was taught to think.
This narrowness comes from the emphasis and over-value mainly on one particular rebbe’s Shiur (i.e. the Rosh Yeshiva) and secondarily, over-emphasis on late Achronim.
Correct, emphasis on emes and on understanding the Torah of ones greater than you instead of varfing your own sevaras restrict your “creativity”. you Torah is then closer to emes instead of sheker. Emes is always restricting. Rav Shach came out with his famous kol koreh against iyun because, as he explained, bachurim fill up notebooks with their own sevaros at 18, and at 24 they realize that all of them are sheker. As they have no bekiyus they are left with nothing. If they do bekiyus they at least walk away with something emes. The Chofetz chaim style of iyun is designed to get around this problem- the stress is on emes, and what not to say, as opposed to filling up notebooks with “Toyrah”.
Volvie further wrote that:
The end result of all this is, the way your Yeshiva and its students and alumni learn is not considered up to par with the rest of the Yeshivos. It certainly is different; they consider it worse.
They are welcome to do so. As we have our mesorah, and the haskamah of the acharonim, we feel free to ignore their views.
Volvie continued to write that:
(e) Hashkafically, the Yeshiva is considered to over emphasize going out into Chinuch and Kiruv as opposed to valuing learning for its own sake, and growing into a Gadol B’Torah.
So if learning to teach others isn’t “learning for its own sake”, that means Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L was not a lomeid lishmah, cholilah. Pirkei Avos 4:5 says that one who learns to learn will get the ability to learn. One who learns to teach others gets to ability to learn and teach. One who learns “al menas laasos” gets all the brachos. So according to the yeshivish world, this makes no sense- one who learns for the sake of his own learning is the highest level! As Pirkei Avos is part of the mishnah, its interpretation is clearly more accurate than he yeshivish velt. Furthermore, the Rosh Hayeshiva said that when one knows that he will need to explain the torah over to others, he learns it on a much deeper level. Finally, the give-and-take of a rebbe with his talmid causes one to gain much higher levels of learning than he can achieve on his opwn- “vetalmidei yoseir mikulam”. Finally, Shma says “veshinantam levanecha”, and “banecha” means Talmidim. Hashem clearly wants us to teach the Torah. Chofetz Chaim didn’t make up the chiyuv to say krias shema twce a day, so Krias shema is assumed to be more accurate than the yeshivishe velt. And if nobody taught anyone the torah because it violates torah lishmah, then the torah would have been forgotten ages ago, cholilah. Clearly this can’t be Hashem’s will.
Volvie adds that
(f) The same over emphasis and focus on one specific way of thinking applies to Divrei Agadita and Mussar as well.
But as Volvie himself ends off,
Another, very very important thing. Nobody in the world, from one end of the Yehsivishe velt to the next, has anything but extreme admiration for the Middos and “ehrlichkeit” of the students that come from Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim. If there is any Yeshiva that is considered to “put out” great Baalei Middos and “mentchlicher” students, it would surely be Yeshiva Chofetz Chaim, above any other.
The connection between the yeshiva’s focus on mussar and the result of its products can’t be ignored. We describe Hashem as Rachum, Chanun, Gomeil Chasadim, Tov uMeitiv, etc. In other words, Hashem is the epitome of middos and mussar. How can anyone knock the yeshiva’s derech on this if it is producing tzelamei Elokim who emulate Hashem? Torah is supposed to teach us Daas torah- in other words, we are supposed to develop a kesher with Hashem and have our minds think more closely like Hashem’s than like mortals (Maharal, Nefesh Hachaim, etc). If Chofetz Chaim is producing such walking embodiments of Hashem’s derech of behavior, they must be closer to the emes than the velt chooses to admit.
January 15, 2010 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #674019chofetzchaimMemberPosting for a friend in response to shlomozalman:
Shlomozalman wrote:
Yes, Chofetz Chaim thinks it is the natural successor to Slabodka, very nice , but that is more self-congratulatory than substantive. In addition, asking what the Alter would do in a given situation is just as self-serving and pointless, he isn’t here to ask, and anyone can easily say that his action is exactly what the Alter would have done, who’s to prove him wrong?
Rav Leizer Yudel Finkel ZT”L told the rosh Hayeshiva ZT”L that Rav Dovid Leibowitz was the closest talmid of HIS father, the Alter ZT”L. Rav Leizer Yudel ZT”L is one who can make a substantive claim in this regard, and he did so. Rav Aharon Feldman Shlit”a says that in every situation, he asks himself what Rav Ruderman ZT”L would have done. This is a consequence of having a rebeb muvhak, that you know him well enough to surmise how he would view every situation and act. This is also Daas Torah. Who’s to prove a gadol wrong if he decides this is what Hashem wants? But yet we rely on gedolim to tell us what Hashem wants from us, based on their knowledge of torah as they got it from their Rabbeim. This is the meaning of Daas Torah.
When they say there are no other yeshivas, they aren’t saying that there is no Torah being learned anywhere. They are perfectly machshiv other places as mekomos of Torah learning. What they mean to say is that a yeshiva is supposed to teach you how to think and how not to think, and if there is no active training in this, then the yeshivas isn’t teaching you how to think. If you want to develop Daas Torah, then you have to know what is, and what isn’t, the way of the Torah. This is also why the yeshiva puts such a strong emphasis on hashkafah, to teach the talmidim what is the right way to view things.
True, Eilu Va’eilu Divrei Elokim Chaim. However, as the Mahara”l explains it, this doesn’t mean that both sides are absolutely right. it means that both sides are saying svaros based on the Torah, but one side is closer to the Emes.As we are following our mesorah, we have to believe that we have the emes. The proof is in the pudding, of course- the yeshiva produces Tzelamei Elokim who enhance, not ruin, the name of Orthodox Jewry.
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January 15, 2010 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #674020hate emMemberwhynotme: good luck in your search. you might wanna look into dallas, vancouver or la
and to all those people who write 10 paragraph responses…get a life!
January 15, 2010 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #674021WhyNotMEMemberYehudaj: solid answer, well said. Except R’ Shaya Cohen doesn’t even know my name so I don’t think he was specifically talking to me when he said that CC is the best yeshiva EVER!!!
ZA Fan: I don’t know if CC’s learning style is impeding my growth or not because I don’t have anything to compare it to. On top of that my rebbeim say that “other yeshivas just shmeer through stuff and don’t really do it justice.”
chofetzchaim: beautiful story from R’ Krohn, it brought tears to my eyes lol. K, maybe not but its still a good story.
Just Smile: (But then again as they say – don’t you want to be brainwashed? It’s filthy. It should be washed.) hahahha!!! classic rabbi line
Anyway the type of thing you just did completely turns me off. I’m gonna assume you’re the one who told every rabbi in my school about this thread so thanks for that its much appreciated. As for all your points you didn’t say anything helpful at all except that you know me and my family and my social security number probably as well. And I would like to talk in private, maybe you could help me a bit more privately then in a thread.
CCbachur: Yes I’m doing research on the internet because theres more people online then I can ever possibly ask in person, so yes. Now you’ll reply “oh but the people on the internet aren’t the ones you wanna ask for yeshiva advice” and ok granted, good point but then again I don’t really trust my rabbi’s either so I’m getting a little bit from everyone and I’ll make my own decision based on that.
chofetzchaim: classic chofetz chaim guy’s answers lol but nevertheless well said.
hate em’: hahahaha!!!! That’s a pretty wide spectrum to choose from but thank you.
Anyway to everyone giving ridiculously stupid answers or unhelpful ones, I vaguely remember saying I want “constructive” answers only. To everyone else arguing it out with each other, thank you. Also, anyone who thinks I’m gonna make a decision based on what I learn in a random thread online is probably an idiot, or maybe they just think I’m an idiot. I’m just trying to get as much hear-say information as possible
January 31, 2010 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #674022chaver1000MemberWhynotme- there are two very importanrt points you made yourself in regard to cc. Where are their Gedolei Torah and poskim ? It is sheer arrogance for them to say they have the only derech in teaching a bochur how to learn. If you go the Mir and learn the derech of Rav Nachum you will become a major Talmud Chacham. You can find on any givin bench in hudreds of places in Eretz yisroel people with a knowledge of shas and poskim far greater than you will find in any branch of cc with the exclusion of some of their Roshei Yeshiva.
The second point you made is that this is not the forum to find the right people to give you an opposing veiw. this question was shown to me by a neighbor or I would not know of it. The real Bnei torah from the other yeshivos that you want to talk do not even know how to get to this web page.
The question is if you can find a yeshiva where you will have a Rebbi to guide you. I would not suggest the Mir at your age but it is silly to think that only cc has a rebbi talmud relationship. I direct you to sichas musar by Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz of the Mir who discusses it and lived himself. It is equally silly to to say that only cc boys have midos or learn musar. Any serious Ben Torah works on himself as well as the Gemora. the mesilas yesharim and all the great sifrei musar as well as Reb yisroel salanter did not go to cc.
If you have family that are bnei torah ask them for help. you were in eretz yisroel in the summer. Where did you stay ? What did you see ? etc. Talk to real people living it and if you have visit and spend some time.
The last point I can tell you from personal observation. I spent many years close to a branch of cc and I have felt that there is a lack of emphasis on hasmada and gadlus in torah do to emphasis on other aspects of musar.
I wish you much hatzlacha.
February 2, 2010 1:23 am at 1:23 am #674023irMemberWhynotme – I’m a mother of yeshiva bochurim and clearly cannot comment on yeshivas. And no, all of my boys did not necessarily fit, though with proper hadrocha, each one has found his place in the olam of Torah. This is what I wanted to share with you – how critical it is for you to seek out daas Torah. You mentioned in your first post that your Rabbi doesn’t even know you. Is it at all possible for him to get to know you? Is he the kind of person that you may be able to approach? You sound like a mature boy, it is quite possible that you thought of this and felt that the answer is no. If you don’t presently know anyone who can help you, then maybe the question on the forum should also be, which Rav could you speak to? Is there someone that you can make an appointment to see, and would give you the time? Remember that once you are in the presence of a talmid chochom, you don’t need to give over all of the details. They can teich up the situation and with precise questions and thinking can teich you up as well, and help to guide you. I can’t stress this enough, our zchus Avos, tefillos and my husband’s hasmodo in learning (my husband works)may have motivated our sons, but there is no doubt in my mind that the Daas Torah that we received along the very bumpy and turbulent roads were invaluable in our meriting siyata dishmaya.
Do you know Rabbi Chaim Epstein? He is a Gadol in these inyanim.
February 2, 2010 2:20 am at 2:20 am #674024realtalkMemberThere is an organization called Areivim headed by R’ Gluck which can help place boys into the Yeshiva that is best for them.
February 2, 2010 7:05 am at 7:05 am #674025ymoskoMemberI have learned and continue to learn in CC Mosdos (Miami my first Year, Z.A. the rest) for the last seven years strong B”H, it was the obvious Choice for me since i was raised by a Chofetz Chaim Musmach and he came out ok ,lol…(He happens to be a Huge Talmid Chachom and Lamdan, he learned in Yeshiva for 14 years, it could be a coincidence however i doubt it!) So i felt if he came out fine so can i…(perhaps, it was also the fact that i have seen him Talk in learning with Roshi Koleliem and Magidie Shiurim who went to other “esteemed” Yeshivos (as a kid) and they told my later in my life how they are scared to talk in learning with him cause he rips their Chaburas to shreds) Ohh another reason come to think of it was that the Rosh Hayshivah Zutzka”l was my Sandek so maybe he had brained washed me already then!!!
That being said i have been to other Yeshivah’s for a few Summer Zemans and (not enough to be a critic). and did not like it (but to be fair i was not planing on leaving my Yeshiva). For me The Derech felt like home the did others not. (this could be pinned on my upbringing but B”H i am ok with that.
It must be noted however,, in the other Yeshivah’s most of the guys were happy learnign in the derech of the Yeshivah they attended and B”H that is the way it should be.
However, this concept of being happy in a Yeshivah other then CC should not be a shocker to anyone since Chaza”l teach us “Ein Adom Lomed Ala Eifo Shelibo Chofetz” so really its all about finding a place where you feel you can grow and learn (in regards to the Derech Halimud/ Derech Hamusar) i leave that part to the Yetzer Harah, and so should all the rest of you. ’cause after all, all he wants is to cause strife…
In regards to Rabbi Cohen i am B”H very close with him and have spent much time with him as a Talimd in his Yeshivah and i think it ironic that he came up ’cause if there is anyone out there that can help you figure things out he most likely will be the one to call:
You can call the office (516)-295-5700 X13 or drop him an email, [email protected] and he will probably get back to you
Or (a better idea) you could just stop by Yeshiva in Bayswater and talk to him and check the place out for yourself. He gives Shiur (two shiurim actually) at around 11:15 and is around till 1:00 pm…
Good Luck!
P.S. any comments on my post are welcomed
February 2, 2010 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #674026yedid nefeshMember(to WhyNotME)
I understand your conceren about which yeshiva you will go to but remember the yeshiva is the tofel, your determination and effort you personally put into your learning is the ikar.
A bochur asked R Yaakov Yisrael Kanievski for advice on which yeshiva to go to(i cant remeber R Kanievskis exact reply) but he answered that at the end of the day the greater the bochur toils determines his success not necessarily the yeshiva.
You can go to any yeshiva and become a gadol betorah if you apply yourself with unwaivering effort in your torah study.
February 2, 2010 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #674027jphoneMemberHopefully, everyone is learning in the best yeshiva, that suits their own needs.
Chofetz Chaim may be great for me, and terrible for you while Ponovezh is great for you and terrible for me. The derech halimud, hashkafas hachaim, the way the rabbeim interact with the talmidim (if at all). Are you self motivated, or do you need a rebbe on top of you all day?
February 6, 2010 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #674028checkmate 27Memberwhat is villarik like it’s a yeshiva in belguim there is a plan to send me there please give me information im 17
February 12, 2010 11:00 am at 11:00 am #674030yishtabach shemoParticipantI cant imagine any Rosh Yeshiva believes that his yeshiva doesn’t have something to offer more than any other yeshiva. And I have no doubt that any Bachur in a yeshiva(assuming he likes it there) believes that his yeshiva is the best. (kind of like summer camp)
That being said there are two questions to be answered. 1)why are some chofetz chaim rabbis so open about it? and 2)Why was(is?) Chofetz Chaim considered by some as a “cult”?
The answer is that in years past there were very few “non-Chofetz Chaim-ers” that joined the yeshiva. The derech wasn’t even a consideration. Why? Because it made no sense to one who is not familiar with the benefits of the derech.
If someone wanted to go to college and then work, why would he go to a yeshiva that constantly talks about the greatness of Harbatzos HaTorah?
If someone wanted to go into Harbatzos HaTorah why would he go somewhere where he couldn’t do that until he turned 30(Average age of semicha there)?
And if someone just wanted to learn all his life, then again, why would he got to a yeshiva that would push him to go into Harbatzos Hatorah at some point?
Therefore, outsiders would not consider going to Chofetz Chaim, and this is also the reason why some of the Rabbeim spoke so openly (within the walls of the yeshiva)about the benefits of their approach. Because within the yeshiva the bachrim would ask those same questions so the Rabbeim had to discuss with them the benefits of the derech as opposed to the others.
(Note: there was a previous where he quoted a talk given by one of the Rosh Yeshiva about Rabbi Shaya Cohen’s speech he gave in which the Rosh Yeshiva tried to explain his words differently. “Counteract and explain” was the quote. I just wanted to clarify so there wouldn’t be confusion that that they were not disagreeing on any major hashkofic issues(as for as i can recall, i am sure you will correct me if i am wrong)but rather on a discussion about weather a certain sefer can be brought to discuss Muchruch Shmoozin(for more about this you can read the introduction to the book “pinnacle of creation” where it discusses the anatomy of the “Shmooze”).
(Also just to clarify I am fairly sure the Rosh Yeshiva quoted was not R’ Henoch Leibowitz but one of the present Roshei Yeshiva who is a chaver to R shaya Cohen and they are quite close.)
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