Where is Rabbi Levin On CT Shooting?!

I agree with rebdoniel here.

Yenta, I don’t believe you thought through the matter before posting what you did.

We don’t know Hashem’s ways, and the Newtown, CT massacre is difficult to comprehend.

Also, the two incidents are not comparable.

In CT, an individual with his own free-will acted as he did, with the terrible results that followed.

In Sandy, on the other hand, Hashem, using His “forces of nature”, orchestrated a powerful show of destruction that caused billions of dollars in damage without any weapons.

So to try to understand CT, one has to first understand the parameters of bechira.

But to explain Sandy, there is no immediately apparent factor of bechira because this wasn’t bullets from a human’s gun but rather water from Hashem’s “nature”.

So let’s take what we do know.

This storm, Sandy, seems to have been a wildly unpredictable and major disruption of the “natural order”. If one is perfectly objective, leaving any rights issues out of the equation, Toeiva marriage is, of course, the same thing. It takes a male and female to physically conceive a child. Men and women are “wired” differently, and children benefit from having two parents, one of each perspective. This is obvious, well known and clear, even from a secular perspective.

We also have Chazal who tell us that the only zechus the nations have is that they don’t write a kesuba bein Ish LiIsh. This storm also happened right after we read about the mahapeichas Sedom, whose name is synonymous with the basic act of Mishkav Zachar.

Governor Cuomo also ran on the platform that he would legalize this abomination.

So, despite certain obvious questions, I certainly see why the Rabbis you quoted came to the conclusion they did.

HaKotan,

Just to add to what you wrote.

Chazal do state that the mabul came about as a result of Mishkav Zochor.

I, for one, appreciate Rabbi Levin remaining silent on this matter.

@Joseph, @HaKatan, @Ben Levi (note, I believe I’m adressing the same person)

For sake of this forum, lets agree to disagree on Levin. Each of our positions have been debated both in public and via email. and I do not want to hijack the thread into a debate about that man,

I would like to take you to town on your following statement

Also, the two incidents are not comparable.

In CT, an individual with his own free-will acted as he did, with the terrible results that followed.

In Sandy, on the other hand, Hashem, using His “forces of nature”, orchestrated a powerful show of destruction that caused billions of dollars in damage without any weapons.

So to try to understand CT, one has to first understand the parameters of bechira.

I dont understand your point. Are you saying that the people harmed by the hurricane were harmed by G-d and the people harmed by man weren’t harmed by G-d?

How does bechira factor into this?

Yes, He had the bechira to choose to TRY to do this horrible crime, but he, like everyone else, needed siyata d’shmaya, did he not?

Would you say the same thing about bechira had it been an arab extremist in a school in Israel? Do you say the same thing about Leiby Kletzky?

I am always leery when someone says definitively that “this or that” tragedy was because of a) toeiva b) lack of women’s tznius (my personal favorite) c) loshon hara etc. None of us is privy to Hashem’s reasons for anything that occurs in the world. While the Dor Hamabul clearly was deserving of its fate, the one family who were not reshaim WERE saved.

Here, people, GOOD people, frum Yidden were indiscriminately horribly damaged in the superstorm along with those who possibly might have been deserving of punishment for whatever… it is not up to us to speculate. Innocent children were murdered in Connecticut, brave staff members, one who threw her body over the children trying in vain to save them, were butchered. This shooting was the act of a deranged person. And while Hashem ALLOWED it to happen, I cannot imagine that He would WANT it to happen.

I believe that people (rabbanim and laypersons alike)have the right to express their opinion as to why a particular tragedy befalls us. But I also believe that unless they are blessed with some nevuah to which none of the rest of us has access, that they should be careful not to ascribe a certainty to that opinion. Only Hashem knows for sure.

Oomis: Hashem takes away tzadikim from the world as punishment for the sins of non-tzadikim. So we see that innocent people are punished for the aveiros of others.

JayMatt, for the record, I do not post under any other screen name, and I do not know who Joseph and Ben Levi are.

Health already answered your question and, as I noted above, I wasn’t addressing the propriety of discussing this in public (i.e. to the secular press).

I stand by my original post, that there is a major difference between Sandy and Sandy Hook.

I don’t know anything about these rabbis, but I do know this:

Catastrophes do happen because of aveiros.

What they said last time may have not been a wise thing to speak publicly, and probably ridiculous to claim because we cannot know the reason (as Oomis rightly points out) but why are you so sure it is wrong, that you make fun of it? It sounds like you think it is impossible that is the reason.

Oomis: I disagree with you somewhat. I think that anything that happens is precisely what G-d wanted to happen, and that He orchestrates it happening. I think G-d made the Holocaust happen, purposefully, and willfully. I also believe it pains G-d to hurt us, but it pains you when you go to the dentist also and you still do so willfully purposely and intentionally.

chalilavchas -“So what is it you suggest Klal Yisroel do to stop homosexuality in the world?

If you answer- vote the politicians backing it and fighting for gay rights, out of office, its not happening in this life. The ultra-frum velt is SO dependent on programs (mainly because of lack of secular education and the current state of the economy), they need the liberal politicians in office for survival, to put bread on the table. The same politicians offering goodies to the masses, are the ones who are pro-gay rights.”

Good guess. That is exactly my suggestion! I don’t vote for these types, even though I don’t want Yidden who Need it to lose Social Programs. Because this is another liberal lie. Even the most staunch con can’t possibly stop all the programs overnite. Yes, they will limit it -be more strict, etc. And this is a good thing -it will only go the ones that Really Need it.

Do you have any idea how much fraud there is in just Medicare & Medicaid?

As far as Jews not changing their voting policies -they are not the least bit Ehrlich & will have to give a Din V’chesbon – how it’s more important to them to line their own pockets than to stop this Toeiva madness!

Oomis: I disagree with you somewhat. I think that anything that happens is precisely what G-d wanted to happen, and that He orchestrates it happening. I think G-d made the Holocaust happen, purposefully, and willfully. I also believe it pains G-d to hurt us, but it pains you when you go to the dentist also and you still do so willfully purposely and intentionally.”

Poppa: We actually do not disagree. When I say that I don’t think Hashem “wants” good people/innocent children to be hurt, what I mean is that although nothing happens in a vacuum, without His allowance of it, He wants rather that all people should live Torahdig, (or in the case of non-Jews honest, moral) lives. Hitler Y”Sh WANTED innocent men, women, and children to die horrifically, just because they were Jews. That is not what Hashem wants, it just may be what Hashem orchestrates to happen/does not prevent from happening. I guess this is a semantic issue, and perhaps I was not precise enough in my definition. I DO agree with you. Absolutely.

chalilavchas -“90% if not more, of the Grand Rabbis in Brooklyn are aligned with the Democratic voting machine (who very proudly support gay rights), and are telling their flock that thats what is best for them. What do you propose to change that?”

Since I have a Chiyuv to be Dan L’caf Zecus, esp. leaders like Rebbes, I have to say they must be ignorant when it comes to American politics. They probably mistakenly think that the Goyim would pass these laws anyway. They wouldn’t – so publicity esp. in forums like this will perhaps filter down to them and they will see their mistake. I’m sure they don’t realize that what they’re doing is wrong acc. to the Torah. If I personally had Shaychus with these people I’d try to influence them.

Your attitude of – Who cares – we can’t change anything -is very wrong. Anything can be changed but it takes effort.

I know in Lakewood a lot of Jews were going to vote for Corzine, but once they got a Psak from either R’ Kaniefsky or R’ Shteinman

most didn’t end up voting for him Lmeisseh because he was pro- Toeiva.

This pro-liberal politicians is based on ignorance, nothing more.

And ignorance can always be changed.

This is why I tend to think people like R’ Levin are doing more good than harm. Of course most Jews don’t like that approach of “in your face”, but the fact is – he is combatting this ignorance that makes Toeiva PC in our generation.

chalilavchas -“if Levin had a more “Malcolm Hoenlein” (his manner came to my mind) way of speaking and looking, Levin’s and the Torah’s ideas would be taken MUCH more seriously (isnt that what we want?). That style presents well to the masses and our Oilem has many such people who should be coaxed to come forward and speak publicly to represent our views. Some do us a disservice rather than a service.”

Here is where we disagree. Let me explain. If Rabbi Levin came to you, me or s/o else asking how he should speak to the masses then you can tell him it’s better this other way, but he hasn’t asked. He decided his way is best. If there was s/o else who got up to the masses explaining the problem with the Toeiva agenda and did it in a nicer way -I’d say this is preferable. But noone has. So I’ll repeat what I said before -he does more good than harm.

He might not be doing it the right way, but IMHO his way is better than No way! A Machoh has to be made. These Toeiva marriage laws are bringing destruction to the world and this has to be made known, no matter what!

Let’s be careful now. Sandy was, obviously, an “act of God” and as such messages may be taken (tho I am strongly opposed to equate Sandy or other such things with specifics – that’s the job of a Navi).

Be very, very careful.

Be careful? What are we being careful of? Are you afraid of something?

Do you think that a person can hurt you without the will of G-d?

And please dont slander Chareidim or Rabbonim by stating they are all in the Democrat voting machine.

Slander?

/?sland?r/Noun

The action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person’s reputation.

I was referring to Brooklyn, here its no secret, and certainly NOT false. Its their highly publicized choice. A quick look in any newspaper, election time, and its as clear as can be. Any kid who can read will see whom is backing whom.

Rabbi Feivel Cohen the author of Badei HaShulach is one of the senior Poskim in AMerican and Senior Rov in Flatbush.

Rabbi Hillel David is the same.

Rabbi Yisroel Belsky shlita is A rosh Yeshiva in Torah V’das and Rov to many.

They have all indicated quite firmly and clearly their “Conservative postions on who to vote for.

Laws do make it hard for them to endorse from the podioum.