Where have all the Yekkes gone?

What about tne Debretziner, not being oberland, but having oberlandisher minhagim?

Oberlander Ashkenaz definitely still exists.

Vien still is davening Ashkenaz in their main old Boro Park Shul. Same with Nitra (there are other places where Sfard is used).

There is a Pressburg Oberland type minyan in Eretz Yisroel where tefillin is won on Chol Hamoed.

Those are just a few examples, there are others too.

In Staten Aguda we daven ashkenaz and have a separate chol hamoad tefilin section in the weiber shul as dictared by Reb Moshe ztlz’l. On Purim we say Kerovatz Lapurim.

Minhag HaGra in much of Eretz Yisroel is very Oberlander like. They say piyutim on Yom Tov, full Slichos on RH/YK, and LeDovid Baruch before Ma’ariv on Motzei Shabbos.

@yserbius Minhag Chasam Sofer is Oberland, Minhag haGra is Lita

@Mesivta bachur

The late Yekke….is dead
No live Yekke worthy of the name is ever late.

When sending invitations, invite the yekkes on time and the chassdiim for an hour earlier.

@N0mesorah “Those communities that put a bigger emphasis on keeping the same ritualistic customs throughout the generations, will appear to be in steeper decline than those communities that value it less.”
Actualy the opposite is true, the communities who emphisize minhagim are the strongest, for example upsherin, chasidisher livish etc. are alive and well, whereas YI and others with no mesorah are slowly fading away

Dear Common,

No, no, no! That is exactly my point. The chassidim are very quick to make small changes to their dress. This allows it keep race with overall changes. Therefore, more people will fit in the chassidish style of dress than any other. So it looks they are thriving more than other communities.

RebE >> This is similar by the chassidim when getting up, making a big noise so the children see it. However, by the yekkes iit s done quitely in order not to wake up everyone.

interesting …
Would it, like, depend on whether kids need to get up?! Or have alarm clocks?

Maybe chasidim are getting up later, so it is time for kids to get up already? And he is afraid that the kids will sleep late if he leaves?

And yekkes kids get up on their own at the prescribed time?

Children see how their fathers behave to follow them as mentioned above, so it has to be seen by them.

I respect all minhagim. However, all piyutim were written expressly to be recited within the specific tefilah. Marrovis, yotzros, zulos, krovetzim and all other similar piyutim. To claim that they are a hefsek makes no sense. It’s like saying the icing is a hefsek in the cake. Or that the cufflinks are a hefsek in the shirt.

I read Rational’s post as reasoning that there is no din of hefsek until we include something that is unintended.

Whether it is a hefsek, see Shaar Ephraim, 13 and for the understanding of yotzros see Teshuva Meahava (1,1) and Chavas Yair 238.

@always
Alarm clocks?????????????????/
Never saw one in Oma and Opa’s home, or my parents or my home.
If you have to be up at a certain time you are up.
Mrs. CTL was amazed early on in our marriage that I have an internal body clock and know the time close to the minute. Early this morning I got up to make a business call to China where it is 13 hours ahead. She asked me what time it was? I said should be hitting 3:00. She looked at a wall clock and said you’re wrong it’s only 2:59………I said better than it being 3:01.

I understand that my grandchildren’s generation doesn’t wear watches or have alarm clocks, they are using their phones for those functions.

Ctlawyer, re:alarm clock. I have it worse : I have only a minute amount of yekke blood, so I can feel the time (Kids once in a while test me asking for the time), but it does not prevent my non-yekke yetzer from being late. I used to wear a clock on public transport and watch how many minutes I am late. I once forgot the watch and realized that the watch was not at all helping me to get there on time. So, now I was able to read…

I would not wake up to make a 3am clock, I would go to sleep late.

I presume Swiss Jews at least wear the watches?

@always
I go to sleep between 11 and 12, I am up no later than 4 every day and have been most of my adult life. The early morning hours are quite productive time for me with few interruptions.
I spend at least three mornings a week on calls to China that last 2-3 hours. This involves a business venture separate from my law practice.
I always wear a watch, I’d feel naked without it, but don’t need it to know the time. My watches are all Swiss and will pass to my children or grandchildren at sometime in the future. My eldest grandson wears a watch that belonged to my maternal grandfather and is about 100 years old. The young man is named for his great-grandfather and it was appropriate for him to receive the watch when he was married.
As for Swiss Jews, the current youngsters might be selling Swiss watches, not wearing them, but I haven’t been in Switzerland in about 7 years, so I don’t really know.

@Commonsaychel
My Litvak Zaidy used to ask: Tell me are you Jewish or Galitzianer?
My Oma would put him in his place, by calling Zaidy a ‘peasant from the east’

This pecking order is such nonsense

@always
I believe Oma used the term to refer to those from tiny villages as opposed to the city folk in Germany.
Our paternal family records going back to 1752 until they came to America about 1872 show the family raising and dealing in horses and having orchards and using the fruit to make distilled spirits. Sounds like a step above dirt farmers, but still agricultural life.

@always
Why did my family move to America?
I would have to break down 4 branches as I grew up hearing the stories from older generations.

My Mother’s father’s grandfather was a cigar maker in southern Germany (Hoc Deutsch) running his own factory. He was made a large offer by an American manufacturer to come to Upstate NY in 1868 and run their cigar factory. They moved the entire family with 2nd class passage, bought them a house in the upstate city and paid him a large salary and 10% ownership in the factory. My grandfather moved to NYC to get a medical degree and stayed.
My Mother’s Mother’s grandparents arrived in NYC from Frankfurt in 1869. The head of the family had been an attorney in Germany handling financial matters and he was brought over by a group of the ‘Our Crowd’ bankers (of the Goldman, Sachs ilk) to handle legal and financial issues concerning transactions and bond issues sold in Germany and Middle Europe. My grandmother was born in 1900 in the Yorkville section of Manhattan, where German was the neighborhood language.

My Litvak Paternal Grandmother’s family started arriving in 1872, some traveling via England with a stay there of months or years. They were clothing or dry goods merchants and sought economic opportunities not available in the pale. Over a period of 10 years, the Great-great-grandparents, 9 children, 9 spouses and about 30 children arrived in Manhattan. By 1886 they were in Brooklyn and small towns throughout the northeast running the general or dry goods store. My Paternal grandmother was born 1896 in a small New England town where her uncle’s family ran the local department store until the 1960s. Her father, having only daughters moved them to Brooklyn about 1915 to find husbands, leaving the store to his brothers and nephews.
My Litvak Paternal father’s family was last to arrive in 1878. Some cousins had moved to Chicago about 10 years earlier and left horse raising for the leather clothing and accessories business (because of the great meat processing business in Chicago, lots of cheap hides were available with great train transportation to ship finished goods). They brought my great Grandparents and their children to NY to set up a clothing manufacturing business, to add cloth items to the family line. My grandfather, was the youngest child and born in Manhattan about 1894. they had been making a fair living in the Pale, but did not like the chances of the sons being forced into the Czar’s army. The cousins in Chicago arranged the US immigration visas and passage by ship from Bremerhaven.

None of the stories told spoke of leaving Europe because of anti-Semitism, and the Litvak side left before the 1880s pogroms hit their village (which is now in Belarus).

To the best of my knowledge all the assorted extended family in these 4 branches had made it to the USA or England before WWI. My paternal Grandfather was a corporal in the US Army in WWI.

“DY, he means to say that it beautifies the tefila like cufflings on a shirt or icing on a cake which should not be a hefsek.”

Reb Leizer, well put, that is exactly what I meant.

Furthermore, there are piyutim in the davening that are so integral to a specific tefillah that few even realize that they are piyutim. Ha’me’ir la’aretz is a piyut that contains the acrostic aleph-bet. The paragraphs preceding the birchot kriat shma (l’kel baruch, ahavah raba, etc…) are all piyutim. The fact that they are very early piyutim as opposed to later piyutim written after chatimat hatalmud doesn’t change their character. Mimkomcha in kedusha of Shabbat is a piyut, as are all the intermediate phrases of the kedusha of both shacharit and musaf on Shabbat (mimkomo, hu elokeinu, adir adireinu, etc…) . No one would dare say these piyutim are a hefsek.

Furthermore, the fear of hefsek seems to have been totally forgotten on tefilot yamim no’ra’im. The examples are so many and so well known they don’t require itemizing.

I find the hefsek argument to have too many indefensible holes, without even mentioning that piyutim are steeped in both the Ashkenazic and Sephardic mesorot. Kol ha’meshaneh yado al hatachtona.

Obviously, difference between yekkes and chasidim reflet the differences between host namtions. Primo Levi, an Italian Jew, writes about a difference between German Lagers and Russian command that he also exzperienced. When Germans say “tomorrow”, it means at 9am tomorrow, there will be signs everywhere about what exactly is going to happen. When Russians say “tomorrow” it means – in the near future, possibly.

Acura, yes I find it a sign of great integrity when a Rav guides the student according to student’s path, not Rav’s, whether in learning style or minhagim. Goes back to Elisha bAbuya riding a horse and telling R Meir to turn back because of tehum shabbat, and Hillel quoting Shammai’s position first

wow am I really to understand that although he wanted yekke’s to preserve their minhagim he still discouraged non-yekkes from adopting their kulos??!!

Hilel wanted to arrive to tthe ruth, so they heard the arguing view first before deciding in order not stumble into tunnel vision.