- This topic has 157 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Yichusdik, nobody here defended attacks on soldiers. You’re conflating the issues and creating a straw man.
Zdad -“Thats why poeople might demand the Rabbis condem such actions but would not demand the same from the mayor of Tel Aviv for a mugging”
You would have a point if the complaints against the leaders were coming from inside of the community, but the only complaints I hear are from outsiders -so there is no difference in the leaders of both communities standing up. These posters are just looking to find any fault with the Charedim and point fingers at all the Charedim or their leaders. It’s very sad how their hatred is so blatant esp. during the 9 days!
GAW -“I have to agree. Had the perp’s wife gone out with her knees showing (instead of him attacking a Charaidi soldier), he certainly would have been punished/shunned by the community.”
This post is where you have gone over to the Charedi bashers side.
It’s Not the job of the leaders to police every criminal in their community.
jbaldy22 -“IF there was a lot of crime in Tel Aviv and the mayor of tel aviv never said anything about fighting crime in his city you would think there is a problem right?”
There is a lot of crime in Tel Aviv and he hardly says a word about it. So you have no point -you just lied to make a point that isn’t reality. Keep on with your hatred towards Charedim and keep the Bais Hamikdash aflame!
yichusdik -“…and at 6:30 pm Israel time today, there was a similar attack on a chareidi soldier walking alone on Shmuel Hanavi. buuuut…it’s all about me and my apparent prejudices. right.”
You’re right it is your Prejudice! Ya’know there was a crime in the inner city today and yesterday and none of the leaders spoke up about it. As matter of fact there is crime there all the time and noone says Boo. But yet they haven’t stopped talking about Zim and his “Murder”. How come noone screams where are leaders of that community to condenm all this crime? You only can find fault with the Charedim in this world, e/o else is perfect.
“you just lied to make a point that isn’t reality. Keep on with your hatred towards Charedim and keep the Bais Hamikdash aflame!”
I am not even going to bother debating this anymore. The only one with any hate here is you.
Also reported by YWN, but, for some reason, not quoted by yichusdik:
According to reporter Avishai Ben-Chaim, the soldier was verbally attacked with insulting and hateful words but he was not physically attacked, quoting police investigators on his Facebook page on Wednesday morning, 3 Menachem Av.
@Health In non-charedi communities the lay people would come out regardless what the leadership says and the leadership would then come out against as well
In the Charedi communities the lay people very rarely come out without rabbinic approval. I think most people understand this. Thats why people expect the Rabbinic leadership to come out against it. And more so in Israel when the Rabbanic leadership does make statements on more general issues.
How do you know which version is true? I don’t. I think it’s just another assumption you’re making out of bias.
More importantly, you’re condemning people for not condemning an act which you, and probably they, don’t even know happened.
This post is where you have gone over to the Charedi bashers side.
It’s Not the job of the leaders to police every criminal in their community.
But it is their job to police evey Tznius violation?
I wouldn’t call myself on either side. As far as I’m concerned, Rav Shteinman said to be passive and be Marbeh in Tefilah and Limud. I agree with those such as yichusdik the Mea Shearim crowd (which does not follow the Gedolei HaDor) is not against beating up soldiers when they have the chance.
If the Charaidim were politically savvy (which they may not want to be for other reasons), they would disassociate themselves from that group (or at the very least try to explain the differences regarding supporting the state at large), and then no one would have any Tainos (and Aderaba, would note the restraint being shown).
Then again, doing so may go against the “passive” ruling of Rav Shteinman. I’m not sure.
DY
I read the aricle from YWN, the names listed are Yair Lapid, MK Aryeh Deri, Minister Yaakov Peri, Minister Naftali Bennett, and MK Elazar Stern .
Except for Aryeh Deri none are from Charedi Parties
Health: To continue, the Charaidi politicians should be the ones to protest (and to his credit Aryeh Deri did so). Besides for being the right thing to do (and you can’t say that they don’t know about it), if they want co-operation from the rest of Israelis for funding,
they have to show they are part of the community, or the “community” will not be interested in funding them.
I don’t blame Rav Shteinman (CV). His “Gabbaim” probably have told him nothing, so he knows nothing about the attack.
Here in the US, the Agudah regularly puts out statements. Let the Moetzes or the even the Gimmel party put out a “statement”.
+1 DaasYochid
Contrary to popular perception, the rabbis in Meah Shearim do NOT have control over enforcing tznius in the neighborhood. They have no enforcement powers, contrary to popular perception. The remarkable adherence to proper tznius in MS is a result of education of the people and the people’s own love of following halachic dictates.
Furthermore, all the recent (and no recent) news reports of alleged violence are extreme exaggerations of small matters. For the most part, these things never happened or are completely different than reported. And some are invented by the chiloni press out of the whole of fabric. And of course are then eaten and propagated wholesale by the willing anti-too-frum press published by allegedly religious people.
The rabbis do not have to, and should not, believe every piece of loshon hora printed in Ha’aretz and JPost and then reprinted here and on the so-called “Jewish” blogosphere.
The reason Rav Shteinman supports the Meah Shearim kehila (which Rav Eliashev is a lifetime member of) is because they are right.
Contrary to popular perception, the rabbis in Meah Shearim do NOT have control over enforcing tznius in the neighborhood. They have no enforcement powers, contrary to popular perception. The remarkable adherence to proper tznius in MS is a result of education of the people and the people’s own love of following halachic dictates.
To the point were a certain sect has “Kapos” to enforce the rules.
Being that you’ve been here for 20 minutes, I’m going to call you Joe.
Anyone else?
ZD and GAW, which politicians condemn is based completely on political, not moral, considerations, and is a separate discussion.
ZD and GAW, which politicians condemn is based completely on political, not moral, considerations, and is a separate discussion.
First, I don’t agree with you. As a public figure, one is expected to have positions. Those should be based on something other than the latest straw poll.
Even if you are correct, let’s expand the conversation. What in the world is Gimmel thinking by not condemning the attack?
Finally, do you agree that the “chalmis” condone the attack?
GAW: So you want the “kapos” to enforce stopping harassing soldiers? 1) It is the “kapos” themselves who are harassing the soldiers (which contrary to media reports, was only verbal not physical) 2) The “kapos” have no rabbonim and listen to none 3) You admitted it is the “kapos” who can do enforcing rather than the rabbonim who do not have any enforcing powers (as the “kapos” don’t listen to them), exactly as I said.
Joe: You missed my entire point (and knowing you, on purpose).
gaw- What you’re saying is entirely untrue. The general population of Meah Shearim does not enforce its way of life on anyone else. Have you ever had a civilized conversation with anyone who lives there? I’ve spoken to the Toldos Aharon rebbetzin and her daughters. I’ve also spoken to others in Meah Shearim. Despite the fact that I’m obviously very different from them, none of them ever said anything unkind to me. I didn’t hear a word of criticism about my mode of dress, which is very much below their standards. They keep their standards for themselves, and don’t want anyone to force them to lower them. That’s all.
GAW- im only gonna watch this thread, as i have no interest in debating it, but i commend your choice of ghetto diction.
Even if you are correct, let’s expand the conversation. What in the world is Gimmel thinking by not condemning the attack?
I don’t know if they know that it was a physical attack. Even if they know that it was, it’s pretty clear to me that they don’t agree with it, and I don’t know enough about Israeli politics to know why they would or wouldn’t make a statement on it.
Finally, do you agree that the “chalmis” condone the attack?
If it was physical, likely most don’t. But if I would say I knew for sure, I’d be guilty of the same type of “biased” judgement I’ve accused others of (although “guilty” is probably the wrong word, since there is a chiyuv to judge others favorably).
I know people who have gone to Meir Shearim and while dressed tzniut for their community were not dressed for Meir Sharium standards and were harassed by the Sikirum.
genenerally they enforce the standards on their own people and its not always true people are doing it for the love of the Mitzvah, Some do out of fear.
GAW- im only gonna watch this thread, as i have no interest in debating it, but i commend your choice of ghetto diction.
🙂
Gamanit: I’m unsure what your point is. What happens when one of THEM start dressing in a way that the group feels is not “Tznius”? YOU are already an outsider.
Nothing drastic happens. If a family does not meet local standards they won’t be able to send to a local school. No one would actually hurt them physically, or give them public yellings. The rebbetzin might invite a woman or girl who isn’t dressing right to her house for a private talk. All the stories that reach the news about people pouring bleach on “nonkosher” clothing is some hot-headed bocherim that are playing hookey from yeshiva. They’re not doing it because their rebbes approve of it- lehefuch, they’re doing it to get their rebbes mad at them.
If it was physical, likely most don’t. But if I would say I knew for sure, I’d be guilty of the same type of “biased” judgement I’ve accused others of (although “guilty” is probably the wrong word, since there is a chiyuv to judge others favorably).
Unless it is a mitzva to oppose the Tzionim, which in that case it would be L’Kaf Chov?! 🙂
I would like to think you are correct. However, events seem to be showing otherwise (unless you believe in the “silent majority”, in which case you would extend to Arabs as well (and means the Yerushamis are being opressed as is)).
Nothing drastic happens. If a family does not meet local standards they won’t be able to send to a local school. No one would actually hurt them physically, or give them public yellings. The rebbetzin might invite a woman or girl who isn’t dressing right to her house for a private talk.
If that would happen to these Baryonim (similar to those who went to Iran), I (and others) would be satisfied.
The difference is that the Arabs have it in their textbooks. Violence is part of their “chinuch”.
At worst, violence in the chareidi community is a negative byproduct of strongly held hashkafos. I don’t think you believe that they teach it in cheder.
The difference is that the Arabs have it in their textbooks. Violence is part of their “chinuch”.
At worst, violence in the chareidi community is a negative byproduct of strongly held hashkafos. I don’t think you believe that they teach it in cheder.
I could be cheeky and say its because the Charaidim don’t have any textbooks!!
What are the Satmar teaching in schools? From the Times of Israel:
Carrying signs comparing the Israeli government to Pharaoh and Adolf Hitler, students at a suburban New York haredi Orthodox school demonstrated against an Israeli bill aiming to draft haredi men into the army.
I’m interested in hearing what HaKatan has to say here. Is the violence justified or not?
I don’t get it
The Meah Shearim” crow for the most part takes no funding from the State as a matter of principle.
True there are basic services which they use but they also pay the same 8% tax as everyone so they are paying for those.
Yet now they are being threatened that their young men will be thrown in Jail if they refuse to join the Army of a State they have been ideologically oppossed to since its inception.
Do you really epect them to just queitly march off to jail?
Again, they don’t say violence is acceptable.
gaw- you really need to learn a bit more about Meah Shearim. The people are mostly Toldos Aharon and Toldos Avaham Yitzchok chasidim.
Do you really epect them to just queitly march off to jail?
Do you really expect them to go to jail? Was this person attempting to jail them?
gaw- you really need to learn a bit more about Meah Shearim. The people are mostly Toldos Aharon and Toldos Avaham Yitzchok chasidim.
Not sure what your point is. (The note regarding Satmar was indicitive of what “denialists” would hold).
Again, they don’t say violence is acceptable.
I hear you. However, it does give justification for those who are violent. If you met up with Pharaoh or Hitler (Yemach Shemam), wouldn’t you want to kill them (and feel justified in doing so)? If instead of actual violence, Arab schools taught that the Jews are Hitler and God Killers, you would not have any issues with it?
P.S. of course there is a difference between someone who you call names and an actual killer. It requires education to know that there is a difference.
jbaldy22 -“The only one with any hate here is you.”
Actually this topic was started by s/o to put down Charedi Manhigim. I just defended them, but the constant attacking of them must be motivated by something and this I believe is “Hate”.
Zdad -“In the Charedi communities the lay people very rarely come out without rabbinic approval. I think most people understand this. Thats why people expect the Rabbinic leadership to come out against it. And more so in Israel when the Rabbanic leadership does make statements on more general issues.”
You can expect all you want, but who says you are right and they are wrong? I posted case after case from all over -where leaders don’t condemn bad things in their community, but when it comes to Charedim there is a double standard.
GAW -“they have to show they are part of the community, or the “community” will not be interested in funding them.”
Most people in Mea Shearim don’t want to be part of the Israeli/Zionist community and don’t take their money.
“Here in the US, the Agudah regularly puts out statements. Let the Moetzes or the even the Gimmel party put out a “statement”.”
You can want all you want, but if they don’t – it doesn’t make it wrong.
You changed your complaint. First, you said it was with the explicit or implicit guidance of leadership. Now there’s a leadership vacuum.
BTW, were you affected by the power outage?
“Yes, I was affected by the blackout.”
Questions or statements about blackouts don’t belong in this topic.
“I think that therefore there is a vacuum of real leadership in SOME quarters of the tzibur.”
I think that there’s a real vacuum of real followship (not a word, until this second that is) in SOME quarters of the tzibur.
Its amazing how people today are so quick to jump on and castigate Rabbanim and spout about what they “should do” and about what they did wrong and blah blah. Humility is in order. How would you feel if after being in a line of work for 20, 30, or more years and becoming one of the global leaders in the field some pupik who is barely out of school or comes over and tells you how you should be running your business?!
Oh, come on, Health. Threads go on tangents ALL THE TIME. At least be consistent. If you’re going to complain about it here, complain about it elsewhere, too. Or, hey– just ignore it.
Thanks, Jfem.
jewishfeminist02 -“Oh, come on, Health. Threads go on tangents ALL THE TIME.”
You and the others missed my point -it was Teefth (Deep).
It does seem to be our manhigims only connection to it 🙂
?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.