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I agree completely with your second post. But it has nothing to do with my objections which you obviously did not understand. Not surprisingly though, I don’t think we are on the same page about very many things in life. Which is also fine, since you aren’t marrying my daughter anyway.
Mods – Can you post the title and where the article is?
The New York Times
June 5, 2012
The D.S.M. Gets Addiction Right
By HOWARD MARKEL
Ann Arbor, Mich.
I don’t know what you agree with or disagree with, but you are not being very nice.
PBA -“I don’t agree, however, with your absurd conclusion that everyone who looks at pornography is suffering from that addiction.”
Really? Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that. S/o Frum who does this once in awhile is Not addicted, but just Oiver an Issur. Most Frum people who are caught up with this are addicted.
Syag Lchochma -“Which is also fine, since you aren’t marrying my daughter anyway.”
Well, would you consider me? When you respond, remember the line under your SN! No LH, please.
FYI- Regarding device filtering/monitoring- All computers can have full filters and or monitoring. Android devices can have filtering and monitoring as well. Apple iPhone and iPad can’t be filtered unless you disable Safari web browser and use an alternate browser which has integrated filtering/monitoring. The only thing about Safari web browser is that you can’t erase some sites from browsing memory, the only way to do it is to erase the whole thing. If a wife were to ask for immediate access to her husband’s iPhone she would be able to tell if he went to inappropriate sites or is hiding something. At the same time you have to make sure that there are no apps that can access the internet as well.
It truly necessary for every man to have filters or monitors on every device that they have. Ayin apitropos l’arayos- meaning there is no one who is immune from falling prey to immortal matters. Clearly the internet asifa drew attention to these matters but there is way too much ignorance out there is how to effectively filter or monitor.
WebOS / Blackberry doesn’t have a filter. (You could use OpenDNS on your entire home internet, but it won’t help if logging on through another provider or wifi.)
Kindle Fire’s custom Android doesn’t have access to Google Play store. And Amazon’s app store doesn’t have a filter.
@Moshe12 I was told iPads can’t have monitoring or 3rd party reporting. True?
I’m not sure it’s true they can’t be monitered. I know people with iphones who have restrictions on their internet. I never tried to block websites on my ipad but I’m sure it’s possible. Whether you should be mashgiach on him is not the question. If it’s a matter of trust or of doing things without his consent, you have bigger problems.
I find it a lot more concerning that you can’t get it worked out between you guys and instead you’re venting about your beloved husband to the CR expecting strangers to come to your aid.
If you disable the default browser (safari) an alternate browser can be installed that has filtering and or monitoring capabilities. In such a case the wife would have to put on the password to disable Safari and not allow it to be reinstalled. You can then install covenant eyes or any other monitoring browser. You still have to verify there are no other 3rd party browsers, and that he is not resetting the device, and allowing Safari. The best thing is not allowing purchases in the app store, which also would have to be done by the wife.
Also, as i mentioned the history in safari itself can only be erased in it’s entirety. Therefore you can always check the history, if it is mysteriously showing nothing for the past few days then you know it was erased. If you can have an open conversation saying that you will check it periodically then he would avoid going to inappropriate sites assuming he cares.
It is a bit complicated but something everyone should be educated about if a family member has an iPad/iPhone.
Oy veh, Professional help means nothing, Im too lazy to go back and check who it was who didnt agree with my post, health or something like that. i dont know who you are or what your background is in these matters but i doubt its one of much experience. The issue at hand, terrible and devastating as it may well be is not one which requires help. This does not mitigate the severity of the issue but there are thousands upon thousands of people who have experienced these issue or who are experiencing these issues who will tell you unequivocally that whilst it may be an overwhelming and all consuming issue, it is not one which can be helped with anti addiction treatments.
Pba: Im not sure why you said that. I wasnt being ‘not nice’. I was stating a fact that we usually have differing opinions so now is no different. I meant no harm.
yeshivishsocrates – Just curious. Do you even know who Socrates was?
“Oy veh, Professional help means nothing,”
Right, because you say so. And your the expert because why?
“i dont know who you are or what your background is in these matters but i doubt its one of much experience.”
So what is your experience? Being online and blogging all day?
I won’t even be Choshet where you are going that you have sooo much experience.
“The issue at hand, terrible and devastating as it may well be is not one which requires help.”
Nonsense.
“This does not mitigate the severity of the issue but there are thousands upon thousands of people who have experienced these issue or who are experiencing these issues who will tell you unequivocally that whilst it may be an overwhelming and all consuming issue, it is not one which can be helped with anti addiction treatments.”
Right. Just like the alcoholic will say I’m not a drunk and even if I do drink a little bit -no shrink will be able to help me.
Or the smoker will say -I’m gonna stop right after I get married -I don’t need no professional help.
This is the problem with Bain Hamzmanim. Kids come here looking for some fun. But what they don’t realize – is that Adults come here all the time looking for solutions for real problems.
Hey kids, you want some Letzonus? Go Troll at some white-supremacist site and blog there and I’m sure you’ll have a ball.
The yeshivos should cut Bain Hazmanim to 5 days during the summer, just so the Bochurim can go home and visit their parents.
yeshivishsocrates – Just curious. Do you even know who Socrates was?
“Oy veh, Professional help means nothing,”
Right, because you say so. And your the expert because why?
“i dont know who you are or what your background is in these matters but i doubt its one of much experience.”
So what is your experience? Being online and blogging all day?
I won’t even be Choshet where you are going that you have sooo much experience.
“The issue at hand, terrible and devastating as it may well be is not one which requires help.”
Nonsense.
“This does not mitigate the severity of the issue but there are thousands upon thousands of people who have experienced these issue or who are experiencing these issues who will tell you unequivocally that whilst it may be an overwhelming and all consuming issue, it is not one which can be helped with anti addiction treatments.”
Right. Just like the alcoholic will say I’m not a drunk and even if I do drink a little bit -no shrink will be able to help me.
Or the smoker will say -I’m gonna stop right after I get married -I don’t need no professional help.
This is the problem with Bain Hamzmanim. Kids come here looking for some fun. But what they don’t realize – is that Adults come here all the time looking for solutions for real problems.
Hey kids, you want some Letzonus? Go Troll at some white-supremacist site and blog there and I’m sure you’ll have a ball.
The yeshivos should cut Bain Hazmanim to 5 days during the summer, just so the Bochurim can go home and visit their parents.
Wow, some serious anger at yeshiva guys and at bein hazmanimim, are your children causing you strife? do you wish they could be away for longer? may i suggest military school?
As for the tachlis of your post, im very familiar with Socrates and his work, you say youre not going to be choshed me… isnt that saying one thing and doing another?
The comparison to smoking or alcoholism is not the greatest one. Those substances are chemical and the addicton to them is a chemical one. The addiction to unsuitable material is not an addiction but a compulsion, electric shock therapy wont be nearly as efficienct as a supportive wife to help muster the will to have the self control.
As to your various assumptions about my occupation, you have no idea from what walk of life i hail or how i spend my time, if i was in a decent yeshiva, it wouldnt be bein hazmanim yet anyway.
yeshivishsocrates -“The comparison to smoking or alcoholism is not the greatest one. Those substances are chemical and the addicton to them is a chemical one. The addiction to unsuitable material is not an addiction but a compulsion, electric shock therapy wont be nearly as efficienct as a supportive wife to help muster the will to have the self control.”
If you would have read my posts before posting your Chochmos -you would have found out that I already refuted this argument by quoting a profesional above in the NY Times. Don’t make yourself into a dolt. Look up the article before you respond.
“As to your various assumptions about my occupation, you have no idea from what walk of life i hail or how i spend my time,”
And I honestly don’t care.
“if i was in a decent yeshiva, it wouldnt be bein hazmanim yet anyway.”
Total falsehood. My son goes to a pretty decent Yeshiva and it’s Bain Hazmanim.
But i did nail the disenchanted parent thing didnt i! he he he
Secondly, im glad you dont care but if thats truly the case, your conjecture about my occupation had no place in your post.
The definition of the term addiction is constantly being refined and there are those who will side with your post, which i did read before posting my chochmos. I offered my opinion, which was siding with those who see a discernable chasm between chemical addiction and compulsive behaviours. Youre entitled to disagree, a right which you seem to have taken to heart but, sadly, as a self confessed member of a generation, mainly only indirectly experiencing this problem, your opinion carries less weight.
For Popa and others who arent clear on what an addiction is:
Pornography use is an addiction if the person cant easily stop and get it out of their lives. This is the case for most people who view pornography. If you view pornography even once every few months you still have an addiction although on a smaller level than someone who views once a month or once a week.
:
Most frum people (Im referring to adults whi should be able to control themselves not kids with raging hormones) who view pornography dont “want” to do so but cant help themselves and find it very difficult to stop.
Please kindly stay out of serious conversations that you know nothing about where your advice can have negative consequences.
If you view pornography even once every few months you still have an addiction
lol
I guess you should take your own advice.
Popa I suggest you google some and read some articles on this addiction as well as read the forums in guardyoureyes and then come back here.
If you’ve googled articles on addiction, you know there are more definitions than there are addicts.
And I have indeed read some of the forums on guardyoureyes, and I was quite shocked to see what a poor understanding was being sold there.
Does pornography use correspond with “diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships”? I don’t think we are talking about halachic problems.
And I’m not aware that it causes problems with relationships, except inasmuch as it makes your wife mad, and perhaps makes you unhappy with your wife. And certainly, if it is ruining his relationships and he is still unable to stop after he sees that, then it is probably because of an addiction. But absent that, I don’t see how it would be.
Does it correspond with a “dysfunctional emotional response”? Not that I’ve ever heard tell.
More fundamentally though, your definition leaves out a key part of what an addiction is. Your definition focuses on the irrationality of behavior–so that, if behavior is interfering with your relationships, it is probably an addiction or you would stop. This may usually be true, but falls short of defining the psyche which we may call addiction.
I think addiction is more defined by the reason you are doing the behavior, irrespective of whether it happens to be interfering with you relationships and so forth. As I noted before, the difference is whether you are doing the behavior for the normal and natural reasons that it is usually done, or to satisfy an emotional need that you have created and which is only filled by indulging in the behavior.
As is obvious, that is not usually the case with pornography.
So why do you call it a mental illness? Don’t you cheapen the problems that real addicts have when you do that? Don’t you harm the efforts of people to conform their actions to halacha when you misconstrue the problem they have?
Friends,
Can we get back on topic – a women has to deal with her husband who has a bad taava.
yeshivishsocrates -“But i did nail the disenchanted parent thing didnt i! he he he”
Actually, I like to spend more time with my kids. My comments were referring to you and those like you. You belong in Yeshiva, not blogging about subjects you know nothing about.
“The definition of the term addiction is constantly being refined and there are those who will side with your post, which i did read before posting my chochmos. I offered my opinion, which was siding with those who see a discernable chasm between chemical addiction and compulsive behaviours. Youre entitled to disagree, a right which you seem to have taken to heart but, sadly, as a self confessed member of a generation, mainly only indirectly experiencing this problem, your opinion carries less weight.”
I told you to read the article before you responded. What you obviously don’t understand there are reasons that they just can’t change the definition. Millions of reasons – $.
Your conclusions about those that are still harping on the old definition is extremely immature. A person who is engaged in these types of activities, whether they meet the criteria of addiction or not, is irrevelant. Most of these people need Mental Health help, they Can Not just stop on their own!
To say that they can – shows the lack of understanding of Mature, Adult topics!
blogging about subjects i know nothing about?
you claim not to care about my background and yet continually refer to it as a reason for my unreliability.
I will not corroborate your theory about my background, my response is irrespective of that. At the end of the day (totally overused phrasing) the man in question is suffering from an issue, compulsion or addicition, depends on whom you ask, but regardless he is suffering. If, according to you, he needs help, you still cannot deny the importance of his wife being supportive of his issue. Not making it one to be ashamed of infront of her or making it one which makes him feel like an animal. Even with proffessional help, which i dont deny will be useful, just redundant, he will need self control and a supporting wife. You seem to be more intent on nit picking and playing semantics with my words than responding to the point behind them.
Addiction or compulsion, his loving wife should sit with him and help him to find a solution, they dont need to blog about it, they dont need medicine, they just need eachother and some perserverence. What you seem to have done is subtracted the place of bechira by making it a psychological issue which is beyond his control. Its not – hes not crippled by it, he is just struggling with an issue, in the same way as each and everyone of us, barring possibly mrs Health, struggle with some sort of issue in our religious observence.
Finally, i believe that not nearly enough information or understanding of this topic is prevalent in our society. We need to raise awareness for an issue which is already rife. While there are great advantages to not publicising averos, people deserve to feel like they are not alone and like they have hope.
I hope that you do not continue in your nitpicking and baselessly prejudiced ways of the past and take some time to consider my lowly opinion, whether im a classical greeek athenian philospher, a skulduggerous yeshiva bochur or a hard working lawyer.
yeshivishsocrates -“I will not corroborate your theory about my background, my response is irrespective of that. At the end of the day (totally overused phrasing) the man in question is suffering from an issue, compulsion or addicition, depends on whom you ask, but regardless he is suffering.”
Where did you learn English so well? Are you a Yeshiva Bochur that goes to college also?
“If, according to you, he needs help, you still cannot deny the importance of his wife being supportive of his issue.”
Well she wants to be supportive, but she doesn’t know how. That’s why she came here looking for advice.
“Not making it one to be ashamed of infront of her or making it one which makes him feel like an animal.”
Well if she would confront him, these things might be his reaction, so she might not want to confront him.
“Even with proffessional help, which i dont deny will be useful, just redundant,”
Ah, hypocrisy at its’ finest. You did deny it and I’ll quote -“it is not one which can be helped with anti addiction treatments.”
But at least you are finally getting my point!
“he will need self control and a supporting wife.”
The supporting wife part, I don’t disagree with, but some people can’t have self-control and that’s why they need Professional Mental help.
“You seem to be more intent on nit picking and playing semantics with my words than responding to the point behind them.”
Actually you are and that’s why you keep posting these long-winded posts.
“Addiction or compulsion, his loving wife should sit with him and help him to find a solution, they dont need to blog about it, they dont need medicine, they just need eachother and some perserverence.”
This is why Non-adults should Not post their opinion on adult themes. You keep posting the same Nonsense. She doesn’t know how to find a solution, nor is it necessarily her responsibility. She does have the responsibility to try to get him help, whether this is with a Rov familiar with these issues or with a therapist.
“What you seem to have done is subtracted the place of bechira by making it a psychological issue which is beyond his control. Its not – hes not crippled by it, he is just struggling with an issue, in the same way as each and everyone of us, barring possibly mrs Health, struggle with some sort of issue in our religious observence.”
Now, you’re making me into a woman. No, I have not removed his Bechira. My point is you can still have Bechira, but to make the right choice you need help. This help will have to be from some sort of professional. No, I don’t think Guard Your Eyes.org is sufficient enough.
To illustrate, most Yeshivos allow smoking or turn the other way.
Now, without going into the physical dependence issue because we do find people who just quit without help, why don’t they Assur smoking? Since they have Bechira, they could just stop. It’s not physically impossible to stop, just hard. The same is true with Internet addiction, it’s mentally hard to stop and they need professional help to overcome it.
WIY – You are so right.
PBA – I’m not sure I understand why you aren’t willing to express your opinion as an opinion and allow room for other opinions. You seem quick to tell a person they are wrong when they are relaying their own personal experiences based on knowledge you gained through online articles, and then call people ‘not nice’ when they ask you to respect a different view point. It confuses me, but the truth is, I just try to avoid it. In this particular case, as WIY expressed, I am just afraid you are giving an out to someone who may be desperately looking for one, but who really needs help.
Syag: Wow. What a charge.
I said you were being not nice, because your first post said that I was “spouting insanity” and then requested that I not post on this topic. You then proceeded to agree with me several posts later, but still insisted that you had an objection which I “didn’t understand”.
Then, somehow you are accusing me of not allowing room for other opinions. If you’ll look back through this thread, you’ll see that it is you and others who have requested that I not post my opinions here because you insist that yours are fact, and that my opinions may dissuade someone from seeing your truth.
So yes, you aren’t being very nice. Just my opinion.
@WIY “If you view pornography even once every few months you still have an addiction although on a smaller level than someone who views once a month or once a week.” that’s just plain ridiculous and destroys your credibility for the rest of your argument.
Nope, i have no secular education to speak of, in fact, i failed high school.
What you felt was missing from my post was precisely my point, that all he and she need is eachother and some will power. Its a dangerous problem but not one that is difficult to overcome with some will power. When i said that help is useless, i meant that it isnt necessary, its a problem which can and should be overcome within oneself, or within a couple.
Hes struggling with an issue whose main weapon is convincing the sufferer that hes not suffering. That is the main problem of the husband, that he believes that what he is doing is not wrong. he needs just to learn some mussar, understand the cataclysmic effects of the aveiros which surround these nocturnal activities and through this, arrive at the realization that he needs to effect a change, WITHIN. He doesnt want to stop right now, he just wants to want to stop, when he does want to, hell find it alot easier than you may think.
Apologies for the Mrs thing, it was unnecessary.
Hi all. What I think some here might be missing when they say basically that “all he needs is his wife to be supportive and for him to have some willpower…”, is that it really isn’t that simple. I know this is addiction, definitely addiction to Internet, maybe not on,y to pornography, but each time I try to broach the subject his answer is that if in fact he is addict, which he doesn’t think he is, then the next step for ME is to go seek out an AA type room for spouses of addicts. He is totally absolving himself of any need to get help. I can already see he’s in total denial even about addiction to Internet in general, so I know if I’m more specific and bring up the accusation that he’s addicted to the bad sites, it will only be met with more denial. There is no “working on this together and being a suppportive wife” while I can’t even get him to admit he has a problem. He just spouts how helpful the internet is for so many different things, but won’t admit he can’t live without it. And believe me he can’t live without it. He takes it everywhere, to the most inappropriate places and doesn’t see anything wrong about it.
Guys, could you PLEASE stop fighting here. This is going too far. You’re having a mudfight here, just days before 9 Av. This has to stop, NOW. Please.
Health – I have no idea why you assume yeshivishsocrates is a yeshiva bochur and not, as he says, a lawyer or whatever. ‘Yeshivish’ doesn’t mean the same as ‘yeshiva bochur’.
Now all of you, the whole bunch, please stop fighting and start treating each other with respect.
give him some credit, he hit the nail on the head.
and this aint a fight as much as its a disagreement, for a purpose, to allow this poor woman some solace in advice from her concerned bretheren.
yeshivishsocrates -“What you felt was missing from my post was precisely my point, that all he and she need is eachother and some will power. Its a dangerous problem but not one that is difficult to overcome with some will power. When i said that help is useless, i meant that it isnt necessary, its a problem which can and should be overcome within oneself, or within a couple.”
I understood your point, the first time. Don’t need to post it ten times.
“Hes struggling with an issue whose main weapon is convincing the sufferer that hes not suffering. That is the main problem of the husband, that he believes that what he is doing is not wrong. he needs just to learn some mussar, understand the cataclysmic effects of the aveiros which surround these nocturnal activities and through this, arrive at the realization that he needs to effect a change, WITHIN. He doesnt want to stop right now, he just wants to want to stop, when he does want to, hell find it alot easier than you may think.”
Yes, thank you for repeating your point over and over and I’ll repeat mine one more time. Even though it’s possible for anyone to stop on their own -the liklihood is next to none. And it’s ridiculous to say he doesn’t realize what he’s doing is wrong -he realizes it.
You must of gone to the Asifa where you picked up the notion that the solution to this problem is standing on your soap box screaming – Shaigetz! This won’t work, but going to a therapist has a good chance of working.
You still didn’t answer my question if all a person needs to do is work on themselves without outside help – why is smoking still allowed in most Yeshivos? Let them just stop. And if they experience some side effects (withdrawl) – so what? Let them just learn more Mussar about Yisurim. There is nothing that is holding them back from stopping cold turkey. If they don’t want to – let them learn more Mussar. And in case you don’t realize – smoking is Assur Gamur! We have a few topics about this in the CR – one was pretty recent!
I wish more people would realize that will power is not reliable. Every addict says it, and every addict learns that this is a recipe for failure. Just think for a minute. Will power is not a steady state. Rather, it is dynamic. As one of the therapists I know always tells me, will power is an event – that of making a decision. One can easily and effortlessly change his mind seconds later. Presto, a new will power! In order to cease involvement in a behavior which has any compulsivity or habituation to it, one needs more than will power. Relying on oneself rarely works, and it is a long shot. To believe one is unique and capable of doing it alone is self-deceptive.
The draw to inappropriate material is a taavah that affects all, and requires constant work to confront the challenge. Once someone has fallen into its clutches, the power of bechira becomes tougher, and there is desperate need for outside force to withstand the taavah. Whether this is an informed and skilled Rav or a therapist depends on the situation. But the interest in allowing the only positive force to be will power is a grave mistake. Addicts in recovery discover this the hard way.
Ive posted my argument as many times as ive needed to respond to yours! Without knowledge of the statistics, who are you to say whether or not self control without intervention is enough?
I was not at the asifa in fact, so another horrible guess. Smoking is allowed in yeshivas because it aint as cut and dry as you claim it to be. They dont allow bochurim who are addicted to treif food to eat treif food, irrespective of their addiction to it. Smoking is allowed because bochurim are not in prison, they have the right to make and rectify their own mistakes, so long as they are not infringing on halacha. Before you jump down my throat about how assur smoking actually is, i wont entertain that argument, its been done by many greater people than myself and yet is still inconclusive.
oh, and smoking may not be banned in yeshivas but in my limited experience, pornographic material or anything which even smells remotely similar to it is completely unaccepted.
yeshivishsocrates -“Ive posted my argument as many times as ive needed to respond to yours!”
Repeating something a thousand times doesn’t make it any more true than the first time around!
“Without knowledge of the statistics, who are you to say whether or not self control without intervention is enough?”
Yes, this Is the statistics. Since you’re online you can Google what professionals have to say. I already posted one above, but there is plenty of proof about needing professional intervention for people like this.
“I was not at the asifa in fact, so another horrible guess.”
I guess people like you didn’t need to go -you have the same train of thought as many of them there.
“Smoking is allowed in yeshivas because it aint as cut and dry as you claim it to be. They dont allow bochurim who are addicted to treif food to eat treif food, irrespective of their addiction to it. Smoking is allowed because bochurim are not in prison, they have the right to make and rectify their own mistakes, so long as they are not infringing on halacha. Before you jump down my throat about how assur smoking actually is, i wont entertain that argument, its been done by many greater people than myself and yet is still inconclusive.”
The fact that you and others are in denial doesn’t make it Muttar. Go to this topic here in the CR and you’ll see noone alive nowadays holds it’s Mutter. The fact that Some Yeshivos don’t treat it as pornography is simply because they are into the PC as opposed to just Mutter or Ossur!
Bustercrown, I really feel for you. I understand what you are saying. Basically, there really is not much you could do because according to your husband there really is no problem. Therefore, no matter what anyone here says about him seeing a therapist… is useless since your husband will not agree. I assume you are probably feeling bad. You are probably feeling like this is not what you expected from your marriage as usually one spouse would like to know that the other would listen to his/her concerns and at least be able to have a conversation about it even if the spouses disagree!
In your case, your husband won’t even listen to you. By him saying there is nothing wrong; if you think there is a problem, go to “wives’ of addictive husband supports”, you are probably feeling emotionally alone. Especially if he is always on the device, internet.. all the time-even simchas, he is surely not giving you the proper emotional support.
I am sorry that you are going through this, and I would like to tell you that realistically this could go on for a long time as the first step is that your husband needs to admit there is a problem otherwise he probably will not let you put a filter or.. on this device. So, get all the emotional support for yourself because this seems like a problem that could last for long.
I am sorry that you are going through this.
scienceprogram – “Therefore, no matter what anyone here says about him seeing a therapist… is useless since your husband will not agree.”
Bad attitude. No, it’s not useless. The spouse now has to go to a Rov for the next step. Sometimes a Rov or his (husband’s) family members can pressure him to get help. If he still won’t listen, it’s now time for an ultimatum. This should only be done with the guidance of a Rov and/or therapist. The ultimatum is either you go for help or I’m leaving. It should Not be an empty threat. Again this step is Not something to do without guidance of a Rov and/or therapist!
ultimatums are a bad idea, she should stand by his side and help him, be supportive. Being forced to quit something breeds resentment and hostility. If he does quit based on this ultimatum, something is missing in his commitment to quitting. He needs a warm and healthy environment, not one of supercilious condescension pressuring him.
health and yeshivish socrates- you both have some valid points, and you both have some foolish ones. But cant you guys just agree to disagree in certain areas. We all know pornography is a prevalent problem these days and is something that has to be dealt with. To say a therapist can never help is simply foolish. To say using self-control can never help is also simply foolish. Some people quit addictions on their own, and some quit with the help of a professional, and some people never quit because they spend too much time arguing….
far east -“To say using self-control can never help is also simply foolish. Some people quit addictions on their own,”
To put words in people’s mouthes is also simply Foolish. How about reading the Posts before you comment?
From above:
“Even though it’s possible for anyone to stop on their own -the liklihood is next to none.”
yeshivishsocrates -“ultimatums are a bad idea,”
They aren’t a good or bad idea. They are a last resort measure.
“she should stand by his side and help him, be supportive.”
I think she is, but that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t take action.
“Being forced to quit something breeds resentment and hostility. If he does quit based on this ultimatum, something is missing in his commitment to quitting. He needs a warm and healthy environment, not one of supercilious condescension pressuring him.”
You should also read the Post(s) before commenting. You’re so wrapped up with this idea of him having self-control that you didn’t begin to get my point. The ultimatum is for him going to get help. I’ll reiterate from previous -it’s not her responsibility to get him to stop his behavior. All she has to do is try to get him help. If she pressures him to go for help and he does, hopefully he’ll respond to the therapy. If he doesn’t go or doesn’t respond to therapy, then she should consider divorce.
This should only be considered with guidance, not from family & friends, but from a Rov Experienced with Sholom Bayis and/or a therapist.
Health- saying “the likelihood is next to none” is basically saying it never happens. Your taking the extreme side to an argument and not finding common ground. I’m not sure why you always seem to do this
comic relief- i have an inny.
far east -“Health- saying “the likelihood is next to none” is basically saying it never happens.”
No, it’s saying it rarely happens. Perhaps you need to brush up on the English language?!?!
“Your taking the extreme side to an argument and not finding common ground. I’m not sure why you always seem to do this”
Your implication of some other reason is Not based on any logic.
I do this when the statistics point towards that. There aren’t any statistics regarding this for internet addiction, but you can extrapolate from smoking the quit rate of self-control.
From wikipedia:
“A 1995 meta-analysis estimated that the quit rate from unaided methods was 7.3% after an average of 10 months of follow-up.[13]”
Not a very high percentage for self-control.
Youre so wrapped up in my being wrapped up that you dont think before you type. You have the ability to take a civil discussion and cheapen it and the sometimes valid points you postulate with petty, immature and frankly, juvenile fighting. Im not looking to make this hostile but you clearly are. I think your posts would have infinitely more value if you stuck to them. Theres no need to dilute them with your baseless prejudices and defensive belittling of your fellow posters.
As for tachlis, “The ultimatum is either you go for help or I’m leaving.” That sort of ultimatum is exactly the one i was saying was wrong for the occasion. She has to be on his side, its a shared issue and acting in the way you suggest he should is indicative of a very different stance. Even if it is successful as a deterrent for him, the more devastating result is the breakdown in this relationship. If he does “give up” out of the fear of losing her, his commitment is far less strong as its not based on his own motivation but from a lack of options. You should read “men are from Mars” to understand a little about what courses of action are more likely to evoke a response from men. One which makes him feel impotent and under pressure is far less effective than one which makes him feel he’s powerful and in control.
Finally, your vociferous harping on about the need for therapy makes me wonder. You denied being a Woman so ill accept that as true, are you a man whos looking to mitigate his dirty little secret by claiming its an addiction strong enough to demand therapy?
Health, how are you feeling?
Endorphins. Get him hooked on basketball, raquetball or other physical activity, he will get the same rush and get some excercise in the process.
CRuzer -“Health, how are you feeling?”
B’H fine, but a little hungry. Time for supper.
Lipa, you talking about fidldy husband or Health?
socrates- that might have been a bit over the line, wouldnt you think?
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