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No, no dysfunctional family, there were things of major importance that didnt go right in the young adult’s life, despite parents’ huge efforts.
Young adult chooses to have nothing to do with parents, but might, down the line, have some contact with siblings.
What works best in these cases?
Wow. That’s so sad. How old is the young adult? A teen, in their twenties?
If you are not a part of that family than u have no way of knowing wether they are dysfunctional or not im sure your very close to them but u dont know what happenes behind closed doors
One thing is certain, they’re suffering and are escaping. I’m sorry I don’t have any nowledge on how to deal with this.
TG: “ain odom nitfas b’tzaro”. Pain, can bring on the worst “escapes”. Like teens cutting their hands etc R”L
Yeah I agree with The Goq. It is difficult to believe that there were no familial problems and the person spontaneously decided to cut off ties.
I find it difficult to believe that someone without family problems would go off altogether. I’ve known a lot of boys that went off and ruboy k’kuloy did not get along with at least one parent.
And an intelligent reader has less of a reason to want to go off than anyone. There is more than ample sefarim to explain any question or doubts this person might have had. It is more than likely that there was a problem in the relationship.
Ohhhh. How sad. Heartbreaking!
If he’s smart, as you said he is, there are big chances he’ll return. If he wants to find the truth, he will. He’s by law an adult and you can’t stop him from doing what he’s doing. If you’re close with him, maybe you should tell him something like, “It’s your life. Do with it whatever you want. You have a bechira. You’re a smart man. You’ll see there’s really nothing there. If you davka want to go see for yourself….Well, I won’t stop you. I really think it’s a pity you chose to live and empty and pointless life. Remember, you can always come back. No matter how low you stoop.” May Hashem guide him in the right directions.
Every single house is disfunctional on some level.
The number of OTD young adults (late teens, early 20s) who go OTD because they don’t believe is on the rise. You no longer have to be from a dysfunctional family, on drugs or anything like that.
At a certain point, you can’t prove Torah. There is emunah involved.
If you don’t believe me, just do a search about the “Orthoprax” movement (Orthodox in practice, not in philosophy). Its growing in all branches of Judaism.
For some reason, Orthodox Judaism likes to perpetuate this stereotype that to go OTD you must be crazy or on drugs.
I’m thinking do whatever it takes to keep the lines of communication open. If it means keeping quiet (maybe easier said than done) or taking an extra step it wont hurt.
The Pintele Yid never goes away. Hatzlacha!
read Just One Jew – the author went off the derech, and then later came back on; he says most important thing is that family was always loving and accepting him.
you may not be able to 100% prove Torah, but can definitely show that it makes much more logical sense to believe in Torah than to not. Meaning, given the evidence we have now, much more logical that Torah is true than not.
SJSinNYC:
Do you have a rishon to back you up, because the Rambam seems to disagree with you. The Rambam says that through limud haTorah and through contemplation of the briah a person will come to have emunah. And from the differences in loshon that the Rambam uses in Sefer HaMitzvos and Mishne Torah about the mitzvah d’oraysa of Emunah its implied that the ultimately the mitzvah is to know that Hashem exists and not just believe.
Lo nifleis hi mimcha v’lo richoyka hi
Here is one nice proof to start with:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/proof-torah-true/
It is impossible for someone who searches to not find the answers. I have never heard of this orthoprax, but it can only be the result of laziness. There is already nothing in science that contradicts the Torah, so it is only a matter of looking for what proves it. And there is plenty for those that look.
bderech she’adom rotzeh leilech. That is what is happening here.
Binah: I think there’s a difference between the author of Just One Jew, and this man. Moshe didn’t go off because he thought Yiddishkeit didn’t make any sense, but to quote him, “it was just that God’s up there, and I’m down here and our paths didn’t cross.” His return wasn’t either based on research he’s done. He just decided to become frum bec he realized that it didn’t make sense for an einikel of R’ Shraga Feivel to go OTD. This man OTOH seems to be a smart individual (although his decision is awfully dumb), and he probably wants to “live the real life”. I think that as soon as the “thrill” fades, he’ll return (hopefully!).
This reminds me of a bochur who told someone I know that he wants to go OTD. She wisely answered him, “Ok. And in abt two yrs from now, there’ll be a guy at my door with long dreadlocks, three earrrings on every ear, tatooed arms etc. You’ll tell me you want to return to Yiddishkeit. Of course I’ll accept you with open arms. So why go the long way? Why wait till you come back? Stay right here!” And amazingly, he did!
Sorry to be blunt, but as long as they are comfortable and successful in their new life, there is little chance of them coming back. However, the second anything goes slightly wrong, little seeds of doubt start to spread in their mind and many times they end up returning to Judaism at that point. The only thing to do is remain cordial and friendly with them. Hopefully they will return. It may take a long time, but be patient and let matters run their natural course.
But, if life’s totally EMPTY he might come back even if life’s good. How good’s a life without a goal?
If there is NO ACCEPTANCE on the part of the parents and that is one of the reasons he is going off because he is hurt and angry and does not feel unconditional love, then it is very possible that he may never return. So that might be a piece of the puzzle that you don’t know.
One of the best means of return is to love your child unconditionally and to forgive. A child no matter what age they are must know that you love them no matter what. No matter what choices they make you must love them and they must know it. We each have the power of bechira and we each might make good choices or bad choices but our children are our children no matter what they choose and if we slam the door in their face or we cut ties with them we are shoving them down the path of no return. If we show them our love, our unconditional love, we are preparing a path for them to come home to. The more we try to hang on to them and force them to be like us the more they are going to tug on the rope to be free and try it their way. The more slack that you give them to test the waters they will realize that the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side and that their parents love them so much and trusted them so much that they need to return to what they know is truth and not fiction.
Once a child starts off on their dark journey all you can do is love them and pray to Hashem. It is up to Hashem to work out his relationship with that child. For whatever reason he is going through that nisayon, and you are going through yours, it is in Hashem’s hands and the two of them need to work things out. When you said “Boruch shepatroni” you put the ownership of that relationship between Hashem and your child into their hands and they have to now work out the kinks.
However, if you and other family members turn your backs on them, slam the door in their faces, or make them feel like they are not wanted c”v, then where will they return when they have worked it out? To whom will they return to? You are only convincing them that they are right to leave and build a separate life away from you and the rest of their family and friends they have known their whole lives, basically everyone and everything they know.
If you know this family I would tell you to talk to them and tell them NOT to let their pain get in the way of their Child’s pain whatever it is. Ask them to learn to separate the two. Ask them if they love their child and if they do, they must show it before they lose him forever. Tell them to forgive him and to tell him that they love him no matter what and that he should stay in touch with them. That they are his parents and he will always be their son. Tell them they should write him a note he can take with him and he can read over and over again. These are the truths that will bring him back eventually.
Realize that I wrote “remain cordial and friendly”. In this situation that’s all it calls for. Unconditional love makes them believe that you came to terms with their decision.
Derech Hamelech,
No, I don’t have a Rishon to back me up. But I have spoken to quite a few Orthoprax people who have nothing to gain and only to lose from not believing. Most of them are married with a few kids and would not break up their family for their disbelief. They don’t think anything in the outside world is worth giving up their family, even if it means being orthodox in practice without belief (why would they give up their family for a cheeseburger?).
I quickly flipped through the link you posted. Its a nice kuzari-like explanations but there are logical ways around that.
The Orthoprax people I know are VERY learned. They probably know more Torah than most people. They kept studying and learning and looking to believe and couldn’t find it. Without any motivation to not believe.
So maybe Rambam was talking about in general. But there are always exceptions to the rule.
chalilavchas: Hundreds is a gross understatement. By teenagers the same phenomenon is even more widespread. Ask any person who has experience dealing with frum teenagers. Its shocking, but unfortunately true.
Realize that I wrote “remain cordial and friendly”. In this situation that’s all it calls for. Unconditional love makes them believe that you came to terms with their decision.
Under what conditions should a parent have unconditional love? If there are conditions is it unconditional?
Love should always be unconditional that is the nisayon of a parent. It is a test. Hashem does not give you the gift of children with conditions. Love this child only if s/he is good and only if s/he listens to me and you. Cast them away if they don’t. Does Hashem cast US away if we don’t listen to HIM? Does Hashem stop loving us? Or does HE always give us the opportunity to do Teshuva and return??????
Hashem loves US unconditionally and we must learn from that. WE must love our children unconditionally. We don’t have to like what they are doing or approve of what they are doing but we love them unconditionally, no strings attached. They are still OUR children born to us, a gift from Hashem and we never, ever take that gift for granted. To do so would be to spit in the face of Hashem!!!! We NEVER ever give up on our children. We love them and we daven for them always and forever.
SJSinNYC:
The speech is fairly logical and straightforward. In order to disprove it, you would have to introduce some pretty shaky hypotheses including the DH.
I am more familiar with these things than you give me credit for. I’ve found an answer to an ancient Greek dilemma that can’t be answered with the theologies of other religions. And this only makes sense because Judaism is true.
The fact that all the monei mitzvos count emunah as one of them, means that every Jew is able to reach emunah.
Devarim 30:11
???? ?????????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ????????? ??????? ??? ???????? ???? ??????? ????? ??????? ????
Obviously their nisayon is in emunah whereas mine is not and that itself makes it more difficult for me to understand them. But all nisyonos are able to be overcome. This is no exception.
I’ve found an answer to an ancient Greek dilemma that can’t be answered with the theologies of other religions.
I’m curious which one?
DH, I disagree with you. All you have to do is look at pshat in Nechemia to know our legacy is not cut and dried. But that’s really besides the point.
There is a certain amount of emunah needed to believe in Judaism.
Neglecting that means you think there really is no bechira – if there weren’t a seemingly legitimate alternative, there would be no real bechira.
g_a_w:
One that takes place in a theatrical discussion. I don’t want say exactly and cause a problem to people who won’t be able to think of an answer and end up with questions.
SJSinNYC:
You said it yourself. It just needs to be a “seemingly” legitimate alternative. A person has to actively search and find the answers, not expect a giluy one morning while walking down the street. But if you search, you will find. This is true of all mitzvos she’blev. If it were not possible to come to emunah through logic then you’ve thrown out all the critical thinkers in klal yisroel.
I accept your opinion as valid but I strongly disagree with you from my own knowledge and experience. I accept that maybe I am just being naive. But I don’t think so.
chalilavchas, you hold them accountable and responsible for their actions. Firstly for waiting until the child got to that point before working with the child and addressing the issues. Secondly for assuming the fault and blame is with the parents and child and not doing a din v’chesbon on their own accountability and thirdly by holding them accountable for throwing the children out like garbage and not working with them and their parents or finding them a suitable transfer. Yeshivas who have been kicking kids out for minor infractions for years have not made their point at all. They are still kicking the kids out for the same minor infractions. Talking or texting to kids of the opposite sex should not warrant the ruination of the rest of their lives and the Rosh should NOT play G-d with their lives.
ALL yeshivas should have Guidance Counselors, even if they have to ask for volunteers from the community. Even if they have to ask for retired professionals to come in, or others who can give of themselves one day a week. Divide the students among the volunteers, but students need the ability to speak to someone in confidence. Students need the ability to have someone to discuss things with especially if they are feeling badly about themselves or a situation they don’t know how to handle. And consequences should fit the crime. You don’t ruin a child’s life for breaking the rules. There should be very good reason for throwing a kid out with no place to go. All those that do so will have to give a din v’chesbon to Hashem for all the lives they ruined. It is not so simple the achrius they own.
“There is already nothing in science that contradicts the Torah, so it is only a matter of looking for what proves it.”
I totally agree with the first clause of this statement. But I completely disagree with the second.
There is no way to prove Torah — or even HaShem’s existence — through empirical data or through logic. HaShem and His Torah are beyond any human comprehension, beyond the physical universe. If I could come up with a proof of the existence of God — certainly our greatest sages have tried — it would not be God that I was proven. How can a mere mortal such as me even think for a second that I could prove God’s existence.
There is a further problem: Once you have accepted that God is susceptible to proof, you have not only reduced God to a human level chas v’shalom, you have admitted the possibility that God could be DISproven Chas V’Shalom! Either that or you aren’t being intellectually honest, that you never believed in your “proof” in the first place. No person who believes “with perfect faith” could possibly entertain the idea of a proof of God if he/she *really* knows the implications of such.
If you truly believe in H”K”B”H, no amount of evidence to the contrary will convince you otherwise. And if you are a committed non-believer, there is no amount of evidence that will move you. This was actually a major topic of discussion among Christians in the 18th century; a British clergyman named Rev. Thomas Bayes came up with a quantitative methodology that he thought could answer this and it was published posthumously in 1763. His theorem is used by statisticians all over the world today — but not to address questions of the existence of the Divine.
It is common for young people to want Answers to Everything. I was certainly that way when I was young. It was after several years in graduate school studying to be a scientist, that I realized that not only were there lots of things for which there were No Answers, but that was the Nature of the Universe! Nihilists will use this fact to attack science; in fact I just responded to one on HuffingtonPost ten days ago. But the same invalid criticism can be levied at Judaism and too many people buy into it.
Judaism does not pretend to have an Answer to Every Question. Life has lots of things that Don’t Make Sense. The Torah is the tool HaShem gave us to navigate our way through this senseless world, acting justly to our fellows while constantly being reminded of Who Is In Charge.
Most of the questions that sceptics bring up today have been addressed by our sages; while some of the answers may not be as convincing as others to our modern minds, it is important to note that our sages for the most part (Elisha ben Avuha a notable exception) didn’t let the fact that they had unresolved Questions to cause them to stop observing Shabat and Kashrut! Unfortunately not all the answers get taught in yeshiva; I can’t count the number of Jews who’ve left the tribe to practice Buddhism who are stunned when I point out Rambam’s mandate in Hilchot De’ot to follow the middle path. Not a single one had ever heard of this fundamental halachah and they left our path for one that emphasizes it.
My this young man be blessed to eventually discover the true beauty of a Torah lifestyle and philosophy.
aries – in your experience, are there always emotional reasons for people going off?
TO CHALILAVCHAS,
As a godol said, a large part depends on whether they had doubts and then drifted off or became not frum and then came up with questions.
To quote; ‘I have answers to questions, but no answers to answers.’
Sometimes unfortunately the heart filled with a desire leaves no room for the head to operate. On the other hand, a family member who has warm and fuzzy feeling for his family or at least somewhat pleasant memories, will usually be willing to listen.
And if that was not in the past, then make it so in the future. Send them a care package for friday night- but instead of gefilte fish put in shushi. drop them a note, invite them for simches, go out to eat, and dont preach then. build up a bank account of positive memories.
To critics I say; loving is not approving. and any teen or young adult knows that. ive dealt with them- they know. I love my fellow member of the tribe, I cant love my flesh and blood?
My knee jerk response is no one – not even in his yeshiva, pointed out the purpose and pleasantness of yiddishkiet. so he’s gone to find meaning elsewhere. he’s intelligent and possibly abhors doublestandards.
I venture to say it is only out of respect to you that he is willing to ask questions.
If so i would be willing to try to answer legitimate questions. (as Josef hatzadik said ‘biladai). May Hashem put the answer in my mouth – or in this case fingertips and spellcheck.
Might I add; under no circumstance beat yourself up. Remember this; Cheskiah hamelech built up the level of torah of klal yisroel tremendously (those who know) yet never the less his own grandson in spite of being forewarned by a novi no less, turned out to be the rasha king menashe. So dont nobody be uppity and preachy around here.
There for but the grace of Hashem go you.
PS I sent a message to EDITOR to give you my email address.
(PS you’re educated enough to put plural apostrophes where they belong, that gave credence to your sincerity) )
chalila: Well, that’s certainly a problem. I still think that as soon as the glitz of those “friends” will fade he’ll realize there’s no point in living such a life. Also, being that he’s turned off by the way the frum people treated him, perhaps you can treat him like a friend to show that you can be frum and friendly him at the same time. Hatzlacha in whatever you do! May Hashem help him as well as all OTDers.
Of course it is terrible whenevr it happens. But I would be mor esurprised if it Never happened. Nothing in life is 100%.
SJS – Why would you bring Orthopraxy into the discussion here? This young man is totally OTD, while the Orthopraxs look frum on the outside, just inside they don’t believe in Torah and Hashem. One type has nothing to do with the other. Most people who go off have had problems with some of their mentors, either parents, Rebbyim, principals or teachers.
charliehall:
How can a mere mortal such as me even think for a second that I could prove God’s existence.
If the sun went backwards one day, would you not be able to point at it and say ‘see’. I am not arguing for Hashem’s existence through Hashem Himself, but through His interaction with the world.
it is important to note that our sages for the most part (Elisha ben Avuha a notable exception) didn’t let the fact that they had unresolved Questions to cause them to stop observing Shabat and Kashrut!
Can you give examples of ‘sages that had unresolved questions’?
Also, how do you explain that Acher entered pardes, heard a bas kol and didn’t believe in Hashem?
I totally disagree with everything you’ve said. What is your belief based on? If I told you that there was a big invisible pink dragon in the sky would you believe me? I hope not. So what is different?
I will agree that there is not one event or idea that provides empirical evidence, that is available to the masses. But when you look at all the anomalies in Judaism as a whole, the results are definitely conclusive.
The Bais Halevi at the end of Bo says that it is impossible to prove Yiddishkeit to a person who has lost his emuna. I don’t understand his sevara yet, but he clearly says it.
Someone who was never frum might be a tinok shenishba. Someone who was frum and became frei is a rasha.
Can you give examples of ‘sages that had unresolved questions’?
I’m pretty sure that no one has ever satisfactorily resolved the paradox of omniscience and free will.
The Wolf
binahyeseira, yes I believe so. Your religion and spirituality is all tied up to your emotions. Having bitachon and emunah is tied up in your emotions. Your self-esteem and self-confidence is tied to your emotions. Your friendships, relationships, failures and successes are all tied to your emotions. In my experience when kids go OTD they are running away from who they are because they are hurting and they try to shed their own identity. First comes the tefillin, then the tzisis, then the kipah, then they are mechalel shabbos and then they eat treif. It happens in stages as they first try one thing then the other. But in the end when they finally return they realize that yiddishkeit is not just the levush or the rules. It is WHO they are inside and out. IT is all they know, it is what defines them and not what detracts from them. They can’t shed it because it is not an item or clothing or a thing. It is their mind, body and soul. It is their flesh and their shadow. In the end they realize that you can’t run away from who you are you must embrace it.
how sad. and are there more kids going off, because more kids are feeling disconnected or is it just more of an option to go off because it is so prevelant?
Someone who was never frum might be a tinok shenishba. Someone who was frum and became frei is a rasha.
“Bemakom sheba’alei tshuva omdim…”
“Bemakom sheba’alei tshuva omdim…”
We are not talking about baalei teshuva. We are talking about the opposite — frum people that became mechalilei Shabbos, etc.
charliehall:
“There is no way to prove Torah — or even HaShem’s existence — through empirical data or through logic. HaShem and His Torah are beyond any human comprehension, beyond the physical universe. If I could come up with a proof of the existence of God — certainly our greatest sages have tried — it would not be God that I was proven. How can a mere mortal such as me even think for a second that I could prove God’s existence.”
I have seen many, many proofs to Hashem’s existence brought down by the Chovos HaLevavos, the Rambam, and the Kuzari, to name just a few. They do not seem to share these doubts of yours.
“There is a further problem: Once you have accepted that God is susceptible to proof, you have not only reduced God to a human level chas v’shalom, you have admitted the possibility that God could be DISproven Chas V’Shalom!”
Of course there is that possibility. That is why every thinking Jew should go through the Chovos HaLevavos, Rambam hilchos Daios, and/or the Kuzari and decide for him or herself whether or not they believe in Hashem. If I’m not mistaken, the Chovos HaLevavos holds that doing so is fulfilling a mitzvas asay.
Also, I’m not quite sure what you’re suggesting as an alternative. You say that “If you truly believe in H”K”B”H, no amount of evidence to the contrary will convince you otherwise”. Perhaps, but according to you how does one start believing in the first place? If there is (CH”V) no intellectualism behind Judaisim, why would any thinking person be a believing Jew?
Also, once you suggest simply switching the mind off and blindly believing, why believe in Judaism? Why not blindly believe in Christianity, Islam, or Buddhism?
“Judaism does not pretend to have an Answer to Every Question. Life has lots of things that Don’t Make Sense. The Torah is the tool HaShem gave us to navigate our way through this senseless world, acting justly to our fellows while constantly being reminded of Who Is In Charge. “
I could not disagree with you more. Judaism most certainly has the answer to every question. It is what sets us apart from every other religion; we’re right. We have the answers. We know what God really wants. This is, in my opinion, from the most fundamental beliefs a Jew must have.
aries2756:
True, most teens who go OTD do so for emotional reasons. But that does not mean that there cannot be other causes sometimes. Every once in a while, you will have somebody who really just has an intellectual issue with Judaism.
We are not talking about baalei teshuva. We are talking about the opposite — frum people that became mechalilei Shabbos, etc.
For some reason, I automatically assumed becoming frei was used to mean temporarily and returning to Yiddishkeit and only that. Sorry about that.
Wolf:
I’m pretty sure that no one has ever satisfactorily resolved the paradox of omniscience and free will.
Explain satisfactorily.
For one thing, the creation of a paradox should still be within means of an omnipotent being, do you not agree?
The Sifsei Chaim (I forgot who he based it on) explains that we can’t really ask that question to begin with. Hashem’s knowledge is not a separate part of Hashem but it is Hashem Himself. I have heard that prior to creating the world Hashem constricted His infiniteness (this itself is a paradox). I understand this to mean that He created “Paradox to Himself”. Which is us.
Someone who was frum and became frei is a rasha
I would say that someone who was frum and became frei is called a porek ol.
If someone kept all the mitzvos because he grew up being told that he needs to do mitzvos because they are good for his heart. Then he has a heart attack. You wouldn’t call him a rasha for not keeping the mitzvos anymore, he was just misled to begin with. This is not really any different.
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