When will all Yidden finally have Achdus?

Will you honestly say that you do not wish or think it’s best if everyone were lubavitch? Will you say openly that a lubavitcher is not better, more enlightened, or more authentic than a litvak who never heard of the sefiros, and that all forms of avodas Hashem are equally valid?

Ask yourself these questions and think about them for a while; they’re part of the reason why chabad complain about achdus and ahavas yisroel whenever they’re confronted with opposition.

They’re also part of the reason why true achdus will not he achievable so long as one segment believes themselves to have a monopoly on Torah, so much so that they brazenly send missionaries into yeshivos and shuls to convert young, impressionable jewish men to their beliefs.

Also, i wonder how the lubavitcher rebbe reconciled his shitoh that the secular torah-trashing state must not give “even one inch” of land back to the arabs with the gemara that says ( Sanhedrin 98a) that moshiach doesn’t come until even the smallest rulership of yisroel is depleted. The lubavitcher rebbe framed his activities around bringing moshiach, but here if israel insists on not “giving one inch”, won’t that delay bias hamoshiach?

Is your point that we must respect, love and be happy with Reform and Conservative Yidden?

This was clearly a carry over; let’s be honest.

Ujm”Is your point that we must respect, love and be happy with Reform and Conservative Yidden?”

It’s a valid point. True they are on what we would consider the wrong path and mindset, but if they truly are Jews since there are so many who falsely claim to be Jewish and join since they accept all types, then I guess we still should respect them as Yidden because that’s what they are. I mean does achdus only apply to orthodox or to those Jews who we consider to be on the right path as we see it?

In a way I feel that the reform and conservative have more achdus than we have in the frum communities where we are so judgmental, taught to be judgemental and stick our nose into others business, and look down upon anyone who we think isn’t on our level. Usually conservative”Rabbis” are very enthusiastic to meet other Yidden. But again I obviously all sides aren’t perfect.

The proof to this is that conservative and reform have no respect or tolerance for racists, climate change skeptics, anti-legbt or anti feminists. When it’s something they care about they are just as… Actually more discriminatory than we are, albeit for the wrong reasons.

Syag, I’m a bit baffled on your portrayal of the recent Chabad bashing as defensive and those trying to defend Chabad as offensive.

HaLeiVi – not sure what you are confused about specifically. There was a different thread he popped onto, telling everyone how ignorant and hateful they are and how and asking for a response. Then he accidentally responded to someone using a different screen name (currently in use) and ditched that thread, going to another with the same stuff. After a resonse or two over there he then opened this one, giving the impression it is a “new topic” but feeding on the same old one. If you just walked in, then maybe you didn’t catch that. When they are asked questions about some of their minhagim, and sources are given for why the questions are asked, the response has been pretty consistently that we are haters and bashers. That is not an appropriate response, and I think they were taught it (unless there were hundreds of chabaniks all coming up with the same wording coincidentally on their own) to keep them seperate and above non chabadniks. which I believe is even more divisive than questioning someones minhagim/hashkafos.

My kvetch is primarily on the offensive (vs defensive) tone that they have been using when the question was not framed that way as well. The manner of arguing, if you will.

So the setup is that you have the professional, soft spoken snipers talking aim with a cigarette hanging out and the target, obviously frightened, scratches and bites. But, who is hunting and who is the hunted?

Syag, please don’t text and drive.

“Do realize that no matter how polite people are trying to sound, theft are, after all, attacking a community along with their Rebbe, who they hold most dear and holy. This is not simply a disagreement. They are being accused of going against the Torah, of heresy, and of not being Jewish. Saying it with a smile doesn’t help.“

When a person in such community sticks up his middle finger when a gadol b’yisrael’s name is mentioned

When that community considers themselves “frummer” for no reason whatsoever they are in essence doing the same thing

Define a achdus. Is it the way Biden defines unity?

Also, why do you you assume that achdus is the only thing stopping the geulah?

TS, ask any expatriate or someone like me who has had dealings with their missionaries who they send all over non-chabad communities on yat kislev, Purim, simchas torah and other times. Take a look at their internal educational material. Do your own research and you’ll see that to chabad, you’re not good enough if you’re not at least somewhat involved in chasidus, preferably chabad itself.

I think the underlying issue that’s stopping mashiach is akshanus. That has been our problem since the beginning. If we are all b’achdus, but people don’t listen to musar then all the other aveiros won’t just disappear.

I never accused chabad of not having ahavah to other jews. They do. They also think that they are superior and thar chasidus, especially chabad chasidus, is the only true Torah path. They refer to things that glorify their movement as a kiddush chabad, and things that make it look bad as a chilul chabad. To them their movement is Judaism, one and the same. No other part of klal yisroel looks at themselves this way.

Like i said, I’m not trying to convince anyone to listen to me – do your own research and look past the “love every Jew (and never marry them if you’re a gazan!) part and look at what they have to say about other groups of jews. Have a discussion with a lubavitcher and see if they don’t try to link wherever you come from to chabad. Read their educational material (not the kiruv stuff). Talk to some lubavitcher bochurim. Puk chazi!

Also, chabad has plenty of answers as to farbys question about what jews did until chasidus. They say that the earlier generations didn’t need it / it wasn’t the time for hisgalus hakabalah. I actually agree with this to an extent, that the rishonim didn’t see kabalah seforim for the most part, but Hashem knows that klal yisroel needed some aspects of kabalah to be accessible for later generations. Where they go off is that they’ll say that the lubavitcher rebbe was greater than the rambam because the former learned kabalah…. it’s disturbing but you’ll definitely hear it.

Can anyone explain why Lubavitchers, whether Meshichists or non-Meshichists, believe that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe is more likely to be the Moshiach than the Rebbe Rayatz, Rashab, Baal HaTanya, the Baal Shem Tov, the Chasam Sofer, the Noda B’Yehuda, Rashi or Rashbi is likely to be Moshiach?

Rightwriter, of course Reform and Conservative have achdus. They accept non-Jews which make up a large persentage of their membership, perhaps even the majority of all members today are non-Jews. They are accept liberal LGTBQs which a big percentage of them are. Their permissiveness and acceptance of people’s lifestyle has created mamzeirim (another reason why I am against kiruv in these days).

Philosopher, they have achdus because all of them hold pretty much the same way about the issues that are most important to them. They all believe in LGBT, but they may differ on say, davening in Hebrew or English. So a conservative can accept a reform davening in Hebrew, but would never accept an orthodox who’s anti LGBT, because achdus only goes so far as the point where you start caring about an issue, then it’s discrimination and excommuniation time!

“Philosopher, they have achdus because all of them hold pretty much the same way about the issues that are most important to them. They all believe in LGBT, but they may differ on say, davening in Hebrew or English. So a conservative can accept a reform davening in Hebrew, but would never accept an orthodox who’s anti LGBT, because achdus only goes so far as the point where you start caring about an issue, then it’s discrimination and excommuniation time!“

Avira,

Are you saying that only frum Jews are anti LGBT? What about Mark Levin (just to name one)?
I think the two don’t go hand in hand

“Farby, why would they be assumed to be the moshiach of their generation if you truly think that all parts of klal yisroel have equal authenticity and are equally beloved by Hashem”

Whos They? All Lubavitchers or a minority who never saw the rebbe Ztl?

Halevi – you’re the first to articulate a defense for some of what we see from chabad, and i appreciate it. I can only be confirmed by emotional tirades so much before it gets boring, so thank you!

I don’t think the two ideas are unequal. If a person lived in an area where there were no computers, learned about them from a tech professional who happened to be travelling by, and wanted to share his newfound knowledge with his brethren, that is not superiority. Imagine if everyone in the town were already using computers, and he found one that he felt was a better model than what everyone else had. He undertook to teach the town how to use the model he believed to be better. But the townspeople weren’t interested, because to them, the new one wasn’t any better than the old one. Still, the townsman had a valid point, but think of an outsider who doesn’t even know what kind og computers the town is using were to come in and try to get everyone to use his type of computer. He’s assuming arrogantly that he alone knows what’s best and that it’s not possible that the town has a system that even is close to being as good as his. If he didn’t feel that way, he wouldn’t travel about from place to place trying to push his computer.

What chabad is doing is not sharing, because the other “towns” already have “computers” which they’ve been successfully using for generations. To try and get people to their ways is assuming that they don’t already have something good enough for them.

Re, moshiach; if someone privately thinks that their rebbe was a candidate for moshiach, that wouldn’t bother me. But they should understand that their rebbe is one among many others. The world doesn’t revolve around them, and in terms of influence among orthodox jews, the lubavitcher rebbe was not in the top 3 of post-war influential figures. Not by a long shot. The effects of rav moshe, rav aharon, the satmar rov, and others were far greater among the already religious.

They Lubavitcher Rebbe was definitely one of the top three in Kiruv.

TS, I was careful in my post to stress that he was not in the top tier of influencers among the already religious. He did a lot for kiruv, that i agree with, but the fact that there is an infrastructure and a thriving community of observant jews is the result of others’ work.

By the time the lubavitcher rebbe became rebbe (nasi? Of who? He’s not my nasi. Some chabad chasidim also didn’t accept him, such as Rav Nesanel Quinn) there already existed numerous important organizations. Agudah, tzeirei, young israel, the OU, Torah umesorah, and many others. When he became rebbe, there already were many yeshivos, chadorim and beis yaakovs. Torah umesorah was already involved in its herculean efforts to establish day schools across the country. Yeshivos included Torah vodaas, chofetz chaim, yeshiva of Brooklyn, chaim berlin, bais hatalmud, Mir, breuers ( i should have mentioned rav yosef breur in my list earlier) yeshiva university and its schools, etz chaim cheder, yeshiva of eastern parkway, yeshivas rabbeinu yaakov yosef (RJJ), the many chasidish/oberlander mosdos of the bluzhever rebbe, the satmar rov, rav yonsan shteif, bobov,, and many others were at near full capacity.

To say that he came to an empty landscape and established lubavitch schools in a place where there were no others is false, and myopic. It’s a part of chabad mythology where the lubavitcher rebbe is the central figure of the Jewish world when he in fact occupied a relatively modest position in its leadership.

The fact is that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is more alive then some other gedoilim because what other gedoilim accomplished was mainly during their life but they managed amazing accomplishments. the Rebbe on the other hand had the most influence after he was nistalek. His influence after his passing was not matched, he is up there with Harav Schapiro when it comes to legacies.