- This topic has 134 replies, 58 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
anonymouslysecret: If we don’t have the facts, then at best we can only judge your case poorly.
Just remember YOU are the one who will have to live with whomever you marry for the rest of your life; giving in to pressure & marrying someone who you will regret is not the way to go, and can lead C”V to very bad things.
Before I start, I want to clear up a few things, as some are questioning others rights understandings & experiances. 1) I have Boruch Hashem made a few Chasunus. 2)As someone working with others problems (which ones left out for good reason)I might have “some” knowledge of what goes on in the “Frum”/”Heimishe” world, it’s effects & maybe how to deal with them. Please remember who is getting married. The parents do have an obligation to tell there kids “on the onset” of the Shidduch to tell there son/daughter there opinion, but they should remember that it does “not” give them the right to use demeaning terms, including “Es Past Nisht” “what are others going to say/think” “you deserve better” he/she is just not good enough for you” etc. etc. etc. All of these are Avak Loshon Horah! They should say if THEY VERIFIED that he/she is really not a good person (and even then remember that sometimes it’s better to let it happen anyway, & they should still treat there son/daughter well, even for Yiddishkeit purposes). If though it is for the other afformentioned reasons, remember WHAT DOESN’T PAS FOR YOU MIGHT PAS FOR HIM, HE/SHE SHOULD DECIDE WHAT’S BETTER, WHAT PEOPLE WILL THINK/SAY IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY FOR A YID MAKE DECISIONS “WE HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS BASED ON WHAT HASHEM WANTS OF US!!!!! The notion that a parent always wants what’s best for the child is “not” true, most of them want marriages that will raise their own prestige. And if Yichus or backround is what they want it proves my previous point about prestige, and it goes against everything that HAKODOISH BORUCH HU wants from us as we are ALL HIS CHILDREN. The G’morah states that the Bais Hamikdosh was only destroyed due to SIN’AS CHI’NUM, which is truly illogical, because how many times have you walked down the street, seen someone for the very first time and said I hate him? Never! And if he did something to you, then it’s not CHIN’UM, IT IS WRONG NOT CHI’NUM! WHAT IT MEANS IS WHEN YOU CAN’T STAND ANOTHER YID BASED ON BACKROUND, YICHUS, WHICH GROUP HE BELONGS TO, WHERE HE HAILS FROM, etc.etc. THAT IS SIN’AS CHI’NUM PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!! THE YAITZER HORAH COMES UP WITH ALL KINDS OF GOOD REASONS TO EXPLAIN WHY THIS CASE IS LOGICAL & MAKES SENSE, BUT PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE LET’S WAKE UP K’LAL YISROEL AND HAVE AHAVAS CHI’NUM AND TREAT EVERY YID THE SAME WAY REGARDLESS OF HIS/HER BACKROUND,BE HE/SHE CHASSIDISH,LITVISH, YEKISH, ASHKENAZY, S’FARADI, MORROCAN, SYRIAN, IRAQI, IRANIAN, HUNGARIAN, POLISH, GALICIAN, OR FROM ANYWHERE ELSE!!!! Only “his” actions should count. Also when it comes to second marriages & the “child” is in the 30’s 40’s 50’s & the parents are still busy Haking A Chinik, something is wrong! & YES IT DOES HAPPEN!!!! HACHOISEM MIK’AIV LEV
I run a chassidish shidduch group. We have 2 girls and one boy on our list that are close to thirty.(not from the same family 3 different cases) No suggestions made are ever good enough for their parents. We are now trying to help the girls and boy to make their own decisions with the help of d’as Torah. Another girl on our list got married 6 months ago with the help of a Dayan and a good friend as nothing was ever good enough for her parents.
You got it right esterh, it never good enough “for the parents”, not that it’s not good enough for children, and please let not anyone say that 30 year olds are not mature enough to know whats right for themselves. It almost always comes down to what Pases for the parents, not what Past for the kids. It’s time to stop labeling & discriminating against our fellow Yiddin. U’bizchus Zeh Nigo’el
For anyone out there wondering, I have an unbelievably great Yichus not just from before the war but even after the war & from both sides of my family, but by me it’s never ever brought up for a few reasons 1)It is Gaavah. 2)It is not my doing, Al Korchuch Ato Noilad. 3)Yichus Atzmi is what counts to Hashem. 4)If someone has big Yichus and flaunts it, he loses out either way in Oilom Ho’elyoin, if he does what Hashem wants whilst he is down here in the Oilom Hasheker, he only gets rewarded a little up there, since it’s expected of him to act according to his Yichus, and if he doesn’t act appropriatly down here in the Oilom Hasheker, he gets twice the punishment in the Oilom Ho’emes, once for the way he acted & second for ambarrasing his yichus. Remember the Posuk, V’shoveho Bitzdokoh, we will be redeamed by doing what is right
wow…
thank you everyone for showing me to REALLY appreciate my parents…!
I would like to update everyone:
I am very much aware that every situation is unique and requires daas torah:
B”H the person in question asked daas torah and with help of a Rav was able to show the parents how sincere and eager The boy and girl were about the shidduch! B”H they are engaged!!!
I can say that it was only after consulting daas torah that things set in motion because B”H the parents were eirlich enough to listen to daas torah and not make
excuses why it doesn’t apply to them or why s/o else has no right to tell them what to do ect ( which happens in some cases).
Thanks for all the advice and comments…with them I was able to help this friend organize thoughts and feelings in way that was presentable to parents!
not to cause confusion…the question was posted by a mutual friend smarty12
Mazal Tov!
Why the rush? (as asked by Havemoreseichel) Marriage is a vehicle to shleimus, going from an I to a flexible, giving we. Without marriage and young, you in most cases lack this shleimus, and it is a lifetime work. It is best to get a head start. Given that a youngster is not a shaleim, guidance is critical, but often a wise third party is the best guide in lieu of or in contrast with parental guidance. There are also biological issues that chazal were well aware of in endorsing early marriage. Being in the Western, modern kugel, we have all manner of complexities and hangups that are hindering the Torah ideal.
YW Moderator-39
“The Shulchan Aruch states that one does not need to listen to their parents when mum or dad say not to marry someone…this is not a violation of kibud av v’em”
I basically heard these words directly from Rav Moshe Feinstein TZ’L. It helps to have a Rav vouch for the girl/boy.
Many times if a mother senses that something isn’t right with the shidduch, behavior or hashkafa differences etc. She should discourage the shidduch. girls and boys should learn to look out for warning signs if their is something wrong ex. if a boy is anti a certain yeshiva then ask why!!-did they have bad experiences? or if a girl doesn’t want to talk about her family then bring it up!! Especially since the dating period is quick singles must be alert and careful to look out for key problems!!
I believe we need to put a different perspective on this topic and that is preparing children for marriage. Parents and Yeshivas need to take a more active role in better preparing kids for marriage. They need to understand that marriage is not disposable and that it takes hard work and commitment to make it work. It also takes a certain amount of maturity, wisdom, humor and the ability to compromise as well as putting your spouses needs first. That doesn’t mean that your needs are not important but when each spouse put’s the others needs first, everyone’s needs get addressed and satisfied.
The other thing that needs to be taught is what to look for in a spouse. How to recognize the qualities that are important to YOU (not necessarily your parents), but to you. Know what you are willing to compromise on and know what is absolutely non-negotiable.
If your child is prepared for dating in this manner then once you agree to a prospective shidduch you should be able to trust their judgment. However, anyone who is not ready or prepared to get married should not be dating or getting married just because everyone else is, that is a recipe for disaster not only for them and their spouse, but also for the potential children they bring into the union.
In our case we ignored my parents and got married anyway. Twenty years later we are very happy together.
Over the last several years, Moreinu HaRav Hagaon Shloimele Rosenbaum, shlita, has met with numerous boys and girls, along with their parents. He always stresses to the parents that they should have limited say in the matter of shidduchim, and that a child is far more in touch with what he or she needs, as opposed to what the parents want.
HaRav Rosenbaaum, shlita, has also forcefully come out against the shtussim that goes on with shidduchim – looking at the girls’ dress size, tablecloth color and food choices on Shabbos, camps the girl attended, and so on. He works hard to get the boys and girls of his community (near Tzfas) married as young as possible. It’s not unusual for all the girls from a particular high school graduating class to be engaged before they graduate!
I just heard this crazy story that the mother of the boy wanted to know if the girl went to a certain seminary-which she did not, so the mother imediately said no. When asked “But what if your son won’t mind?” -she said thats what she is afraid of-that they will like each other and marry and she won’t end up getting her______seminary girl!!
As far as i’m concerned the boy is marrying the girl-not the mother-no?
I was hoping to come back to the cr for some respite but not only do I find out that 1) mazal tov my brother got engaged so now I am next and 2) I have to bump into this thread which makes me dread even more going/being in shidduchim…. (By the way are all the moderators still here or were there switches while I was gone?)
Mazal Tov! IY”H by you b’korov (with your parents blessings.)
Kasha thanx but you aren’t helping the matter 😛
I am going to risk the mods for this one but on a totally unrelated topic did the 3rd general lose his job too?
2) I have to bump into this thread which makes me dread even more going/being in shidduchim
Why? Do your parents and you not see eye-to-eye on shidduchim?
The Wolf
No it just scares me such situations exist (I know I have read the thread and articles on related topic(s) but still…) And I am not batuach that my parents and I do see eye to eye
It is not exactly shidduchim I am worried about it is the other factors which affect it
If you are just about in the Parsha, Yossi, then you should sit down and talk calmly with your parents and get the sense what each of you in thinking in this area. It may or may not be that you are all on the same page. In either case,don’t wait until you are redt to someone or meet someone, to be clear about your needs and intentions.
Yossi z- you better make sure to tell your parents EXACTLY what you’re looking for even though they might not like certain things.
YOU are marrying the girl and no one else so YOU have to be happy.
Thanx
One question though, how do I open such a discussion?
I believe Harav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L has a t’shuvah on this topic.
If I remember correctly he says that if it’s not for religious
reasons or a REAL problem w/ shidduch for the child,
(not any personal preferences) the child is not required to listen to the parents. It goes w/o saying that the child has to explain only respectfully that the shidduch is ultimately for
him and therefore his decision. This is no heter in any form to be disrespectful to ones parents.
Yossi, you can open such a dialogue (after everyone is well-fed and rested)on your own, just by saying you want to sit down and have a talk with them. OR – you can wait for the subject to come up, say, about a friend or family member who becomes engaged, and use it as a springboard for such a discussion. Good luck to you.
Yoosi, it’s hard. When I was in that Parsha, I waited for the first call to come- and then I asked my mother if the boy matches all my (important) requirements.
Then I went through with her what I wanted in a shidduch for myself. This way, any furthur suggestions were judged accordingly.
Hatzlacha!
If I remember correctly he says that if it’s not for religious
reasons or a REAL problem w/ shidduch for the child,
(not any personal preferences) the child is not required to listen to the parents. It goes w/o saying that the child has to explain only respectfully that the shidduch is ultimately for
him and therefore his decision. This is no heter in any form to be disrespectful to ones parents.
Can you please point me to the teshuva?
I have a hard time believing that R. Moshe would say that you have to listen to your parents regarding shidduchim if the problem is in personal preferences (i.e. for such factors as hair color, facial features, height, weight, etc.)
The Wolf
Yossi, firstly mazal tov on your simcha. Secondly, take a breath, and then sit down and think about who you are and what you imagine your life to be. YOUR marriage and family will be a combination and compromise of the best of what you know (from your home, learning, and experience) and the best of what she knows and the decisions you will make together.
Shidduchim are a partnership between the parents, the shadchan and most of all Hashem. They don’t happen just stam, and they really don’t follow the list of requirements people have. Let me clarify that. Rarely does anyone get most if not anything on their lists so don’t even bother with it. Take a deep look at yourself and try to understand what type of young woman would compliment and complete the person you are. Are you looking for a baalas chessed? Are you looking for someone who can appreciate your sense of humor? Do you enjoy having an open house, do you want someone who doesn’t mind entertaining and sharing you with guests? Do you appreciate someone who would put on a pair of sneakers and go for 3 mile walk with you?
Think of the real important issues that really make up good and solid relationships. The outer issues that boys think of are foolish because a size 2 can turn into a size 10 very easily. So if that is number one on your list consider that shallow. When you get to the heart of the matter, that is when you should approach your parents and let them know the type of girl that would win your heart. Be prepared to “listen to understand” your parents perspective. Let them talk and don’t interrupt. Give them the courtesy of having their say, you might be surprised that they know you well enough to be on the same page. Then ask them to give you the same courtesy to listen to what you have to say, and ask them to be on the same page as you because it will make the dating process go more quickly and easily. After all there is no point in you dating girls that you will not choose to marry.
Thanx aries (you sound like you are either a shadchan/is or a person with knowledge/experience or both)
tell your parents you don’t support their choice of shidduch either. that ought to shut them up
WolfishMusings wrote; “I have a hard time believing that R. Moshe would say that you have to listen to your parents regarding shidduchim if the problem is in personal preferences”
You misunderstood me, I said “punkt farkert” than what you understood. Please reread my post and tell me if I have an hasborah problem. I will IY”H look up the teshuva to make sure it exists in reality as well as in my memory.
I might be mixing it up w/ if one has to listen to parent “mishigas” to wait for an older sibling although they are of age and time is ticking.
You misunderstood me, I said “punkt farkert” than what you understood.
Then in that case, I apologize. I did, indeed, misunderstand what you wrote.
The Wolf
The most important thing in looking for a marriage partner is that it has to suit YOU not your parents.
If your parents are normal, good people that you know have your best interets in mind then have a conversation with them and explain what your needs are (after first getting to know yourself inside out).
If your parents are unreasonable and selfish then talk to a Rosh Yeshiva or anyone you trust and work through the issue with them. The bottom line is that you need to remember that you will have to live with this person for the rest of your life and therefore your marriage partner needs to suit you, not your parents.
What is required of a person before he/she would be considered ready to be in shidduchim?
yossi – 18 years old, at the latest. Back in the day, we would get married earlier. But the Mishna in Pirkei Avos does say Shemonah Esre L’Chuppa.
philosopher – Jewish parents are by and large very reasonable, any personal experience notwithstanding. And parents probably have a better idea what is right that an 18 year old shnook.
“And parents probably have a better idea what is right that an 18 year old shnook.” Unfortunately, i have to disagree somewhat with you. Nowadays what i hear what some parents “want” for their child is immature and childish. Im not saying this as a generall thing-there are many wise parents out there(like mine:)) who know these matters and are great to get advice from, but definitely the boy/girl should have a massive say after all they are the ones getting married!
You can easily, and accurately, reverse what you said, to say… nowadays what I hear what some youngsters “want” for their shidduch is immature and childish. I’m not saying this as a generall thing; there are many wise youngsters out there who know these matters, but definitely the parent should have a say, after all they have years of experiance!
lol! I guess the immature youngsters should get advice from their wise parents and the mature young adults should not listen to their immature parents “advice.”
Myfriend:
How many times do you hear 18 year old shnooks saying that a prospective family doesn’t ‘POSS’ for them?
NEVER!!
The unresonable ‘POSSing’ requirements come from the parents who feel the need to have their picture in the Yated in order to feel validated. Again, some 21 year old shnooks have more life experience and see things clearer than fame seeking adults!!
artchill – I hear it infrequently from both parents and youngsters. They may express it differently but have the same feeling.
And how often do you hear youngsters come up with the most half-witted, moronic, sophomoric, boorish, boneheaded, mindless, imbecilic, absurd “requirements” for their prespective shidduch?
All too often.
It is not just age that is a “requirement” for marriage there are other factors. What constitutes maturity? And what else is necessary?
myfriend many of the youngsters witted moronic, sophomoric…..requirements are really a reflection of what their parents want.
And if it was just age then I would be married already
Myfriend:
Maskim!
But in close to 95% of dates, those “half-witted, moronic, sophomoric, boorish, boneheaded, mindless, imbecilic, absurd “requirements” end up being deal breakers and first date dumpings.
It is healthy for a person to see the light on their own that their ideas are “half-witted, moronic, sophomoric, boorish, boneheaded, mindless, imbecilic, absurd “requirements” rather than be nixed arbitrarily by equally “half-witted, moronic, sophomoric, boorish, boneheaded, mindless, imbecilic, absurd “requirements” of the parents!!
yossi – age is the only technical “requirement” that comes to mind.
blinky – sometimes that’s true, and often it is not.
artchill – Nu, everyone needs common sense.
Yes but what is necessary for a person to be suitable for marriage?
“what is necessary for a person to be suitable for marriage?”
Put on a suit — and a chosson tie.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.