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DaMoshe: You are quite correct about that. Thank you.
From Reb Ovadia’s Tshuva it didn’t sound like he would say Hallel. But if he did, it was not during Davenning. He also mentions that we don’t celebrate an As’chalta. In fact, by Puranus we go after the beginning, as in Tish’a Be’av, and by a Yeshua we go after the completion as in the 14th of Adar and Chanu Chaf Heh.
“R’ Schachter who holds it’s next Monday”
My rav also holds it is Monday. He got that tradition from Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l.
LF: You called it Yom Ha’atzamos. I don’t think you realize how offensive it is. The analogy to calling an African American the n-word is quite apt.
If you’re interested (I think it’s on Youtube or YUTorah), R’ Willig at YU’s Yom Ha’atzma’ut Seudas Hoda’ah last year spoke about how it’s a Yom of Achdus and even people who are pro-Medinah need to respect the opinions of those who are anti because they are opinions endorsed by legitimate Torah giants.
The Zionist nonsense in this thread is so strange that one wonders how intelligent people continue to delude themselves with any of this.
Tens of thousands of Jews have died on the altar of Zionism since Israel’s Independence Day. (Not to mention the countless other Jews have died before that time due to Zionism.) So “Yom Ha’atzamos” seems like a reasonable description for that day and not at all comparable to a racist slur as the MO wish everyone to believe.
Frum people are those who follow gedolim, not those who broke with their mesorah and who invented a new Torah of, as the Brisker Rav put it, “a sea of heresy mixed with a drop of Torah”. That is, of course, the province of MO and “Religious Zionism”. As Rav Aharon Kotler pointed out, the essence of MO is the same as Reform and Conservative.
There is, of course, nothing Jewish about Israel’s Independence Day. Just for example, the Chazon Ish was makpid to say tachanun that day even when he had three brisos that morning just to make sure that people should not err in this.
In addition to the gedolim’s strong and unwavering opposition, the Zionists also ignore that even for Bayis Sheini, which was indeed a real geulah, no such Yom Tov was created. And they had neviim then, unlike today. The Zionists also ignore that the State of Israel is among the LEAST safest places for a Jew today and ever since Zionism reared its bloody head well over a century ago.
And it is simply delusional to claim “He also clearly showed us an absolute early sign of the coming Geulah BB”A”. You have no neviim or even any gedolim to claim that and, of course, the gedolim have said just the opposite.
Even the letter which Zionists still tout as if it were some psak din, rather than a slimy forgery, never originally said those words, never mind who did or didn’t even sign the letter in any form.
Regardless, Zionism and its victories in 1948 had nothing to do with the geulah. Simply, a Mitzva haBaa baAveira is not a Mitzva and the founding of the State entailed various severe aveiros. Founding the State was absolutely assur in many ways, and to say Hallel for such a thing is patently absurd.
Of course MO/”Religious Zionism” has been making it all up and just as certainly they do delude themselves into thinking that there might be parameters for their inventions (which even Sam2 admits are not muchrach, even liShitasam). The problem is that the gedolim very much did and continue to disagree with MO/”Religious Zionism” at least as much as they did regarding any other deviant movement.
Even the “left-wing” Rabbis admit that MO/”Religious Zionism” changed (their) Judaism.
Like Eliyahu Fink, for instance, who blogged what any high school student could tell you after learning about European Nationalism, and then reading Orot (which, incidentally, the Chazon Ish, among others, also forbade): that Rabbi Kook merely took Nationalism and grafted it onto, liHavdil, our holy Torah. (Rabbi Dr. Lichtenstein also wrote similarly, though he obviously concluded positively, regardless.)
The bottom line is that Rav Elchonon and others said that Zionism is Avoda Zara and “Religious Zionism” is simply religion mixed with Avoda Zara. The whole MO/”Religious Zionism” is simply a non-starter.
You just can’t make quotes like this up. “No one used an offensive slur against you. They just currently pointed out that you support mass murder.” Nope, moving along. Nothing offensive here…
HaKatan, on a day when we celebrate the open miracles that Hashem performed, I will daven especially for you (and no, not by V’lamalshinim. I will daven for you to do teshuva.
I honestly believe that when you eventually get judged by the beis din shel ma’alah, you will be held accountable for all the motzei shem ra you’ve said against millions of Jews. I have a lot of pity for you, for the punishment you will surely face.
I daven you that will see the error of your ways, and do teshuva – which includes asking for forgiveness from every person you’ve said lashon hara or motzei shem ra about.
This is so painful
HaKatan quoting R’ Eliyahu Fink. It is truly a day of Nissim Geluyim!!
🙂
Hakatan
very powerful words
GAW:
Yes, I agree that this was definitely ironic.
DaMoshe:
Do you also have a day to celebrate the open miracle of the creation of the eigel? Our mesorah is that both are Avoda Zara. Why one and not the other?
I do appreciate your tefilos, of course.
I am not aware of any aveiros of either Lashon HaRa or Motzi Shem Ra about anyone, but if you are aware of any, I would appreciate knowing about that.
Again, the bottom line is that Rav Elchonon and others said that Zionism is Avoda Zara and “Religious Zionism” is simply religion mixed with Avoda Zara. The whole MO/”Religious Zionism” is simply a non-starter.
hakatan: point 1) zionism (the way you define it) died when the state of israel was created.
point 2) you have a hard time distinguishing between zionism the movement which started in europe and included religious elements (did you know that the religious zionists planned on voting in favor of the Uganda Project at the Sixth Zionist Congress at Basel on August 26, 1903?) on one hand and the mitzvah to live and capture eretz yisroel on the other hand (which is also called zionism). your diatribes against zionism and religious zionism is very apt when directed at the former and totally misdirected when aimed at the latter.
all of the quotes you cite were stated about the former. the latter, at worst, is a flawed halochic analysis.
the type one zionists are a shrinking majority and they are waiving the flag of a dead movement. the type two are a growing majority.
Besalel:
That makes no sense. What do you claim has “changed”? The nihye kiChol haAmim and rak biDam tihye lanu haAretz philosophy remains just the same; only now, the focus is keeping the land Zionist, CH”V. An even cursory glance at Zionist activities makes this quite plain.
The Brisker Rav and others did not change their stance even after the State of Israel was founded, and they lived there both before and after.
If anything, the Zionist shmad is even stronger now than it was then. Back then, they left alone the Chareidim about whom they knew it were hopeless to spout their Zionist fantasies to them. Instead, they made do with deliberately destroying the Judaism of our Sefardic brethren whom they had conned into moving to their “utopia”.
While the mitzva to live in E”Y might be in effect today, depending on who you ask, the mitzva to conquer E”Y as definitely NOT in effect today and is, in fact, strictly prohibited with severe consequences, R”L L”A, Hashem Yiracheim.
Who is “us”? Star Trek people?
HaKatan,
Did it ever occur to you that the zionism that Rav Elchonon and the Brisker rov rallied against is not the same zionism as it is in 2014?
Were the zionists of yesteryear trying to destroy orthodox judaism? Perhaps. But today, I do not believe they are. Check out this week’s mishpacha magazine. It talks about a recent survey of secular Israelis and their views on Chareidim. It’s pretty eye opening.
HaKatan,
The zionists, both of yesteryear and now, were the single most supporter of Torah study in the world. Period. No question about it. So please stop your vitriolic comments about the state of Israel. If anything, you should be thanking them.
Are you people nuts?? Zionist pro Torah ? Are you living in a cave?!?!
Do you have a clue that the state of Israel is at war with the torah now in 2014 more openly than ever?
Getzel: The State of Israel is at war with Torah, which is why they pay every single Avreich in every single Kollel in the country (aside from those who refuse it). Gotcha.
Like Sam2 said, Israel provides money to every family in the country.
If you don’t celebrate Yom Haatzmaut, thats fine. But please show some hakas hatov towards the state for supporting the most Torah study in the world.
hakatan, you do know that zionism existed before hertsel, right? the ramban who believed that kibbush eretz yisroel is a mitzveh never heard of hertsel who was born 600 years later. all the mamrei chazal teaching us the importance of living in eretz yisroel were written before hertsel.
what has changed is that the state was born and today it is made up of some zionists of old, some torah jews, some arabs and some goyim. if the trends continue the zionism of old will no longer be a factor in israel within one generation.
there can be no doubt that the zionists of europe(religious and not religious) were not pro-torah and perhaps in some ways ovdei avoda zuru in placing their medina as god. they tried, like you say, to eradicate by force the torah of the sfardim who came and the ashkenazim they can influence. where they made accommodations for torah it was only done in order to further their own agenda and on the theory that the torah will be lost soon. but guess what? they lost and torah won and very soon torah jews will be the overwhelming majority of the state.
They are anti torah.
Like every modern democratic country there is something called welfare. UK USA CANADA BELGIUM etc.
Israel in the other hand in the last few years is cutting and cutting the welfare from one group and that is?!?!?!
The Frum torah Jews.
Getzel,
The state of Israel owes chariedim nothing. Absolutely nothing. Every cent that they have given to the chreidim has been a gift.
It’s like if I give a poor man 20 dollars every week. One week, I only give him ten. He has absolutely no right to complain that he only received 10 dollars. Every penny I gave him was a gift. He didn’t earn it or deserve it.
Chareidim in Israel are upset that the money that they receive as gifts are being cut. What chutzta!!!
Besalel and others:
No, the Ramban did not CH”V hold that it is a mitzvah to violate the oaths, risk and lose, R”L L”A, tens of thousands of Jewish lives on the altar of that idolatrous State, etc.
Living in E”Y, not en masse, and with no force needed, and with permission of the nations including of the inhabitants already there, is a different story, but which is anyways entirely inapplicable to Zionism.
As I and others have posted, the Zionists and the State of Israel are still very much fighting to change our people from a Torah-based nation to a goy nation-based nation. Also, from ’48 until today, the gedolim certainly did not moderate their stance against Zionism. In fact, they have repeatedly confirmed that the same concerns, if not more, apply after ’48 through today.
Again, the Satmar Rav’s mashal of the arsonist who set fire to a structure and then ran up with a fire hose like some sort of hero, seems quite appropriate. The Zionists have reneged on their deals with Agudah that Agudah paid for with their collective soul and, as Getzel pointed out, welfare exists everywhere.
Hakatan,
How exactly is Israel trying to change our people from a Torah-based nation to a goy based nation?
By supporting the most Talmud Torah in the world today? By asking them to share in the mitzva of securing the state of israel?
Or maybe by providing an all male unite of soldiers.
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and
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and
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MATAN read these words again
Like every modern democratic country there is something called welfare. UK USA CANADA BELGIUM etc.
Israel in the other hand in the last few years is cutting and cutting the welfare from one group and that is?!?!?! The Frum torah Jews.
Getzel: In the USA (I can’t speak for other countries), you don’t get welfare so easily. You need to show that you’re trying to earn money. If you’re unemployed, you need to be trying to find work. If someone said, “I don’t want to work, I just want the government to take care of me!” they wouldn’t get anything. Their children would, but not the adults. Yes, there are people who lie and take advantage of the system. But the rules are that you should be trying.
In Israel, many chareidim are open about the fact that they don’t want to even try and earn a living for themselves. Why should the government pay for someone who isn’t willing to help him/herself?
“Are you people nuts?? Zionist pro Torah ? Are you living in a cave?!?!”
The average secular israeli isnt a “zionist” (heck, the average israeli of any stripe isnt a zionist).
How are religious zionist bachurim who learn torah for 3 years and serve in the army for 1.5 years trying to make israel a goyishe nation? Explain to me how all the religious zionist rabbanim at gush or other hesder yeshivos, who spend their days and nights toiling in torah, are making Judaism a goy-based nation? In gush, They have 3 sedorim and learn the same gemara that you do. The israelis just also happen to also take a year off and protect Jewish lives from crazy Arabs.
Honestly, I feel like all of Hakatan’s arguments, including his failure to recognize hashgacha praris, his ignorance of the importance of Eretz Yisroel, and his apathy regarding Kibbutz Galuyos, aren’t even kefirah. like the Christians who Ramabn discusses- they cant be considered ovdei avodah zarah cause they don’t make sense!!
Exactly what DaMoshe said. If chardeidim in Israel don’t want to work, thats fine. It’s their own decision to make. But they should not expect the state (which they hold to be traif) to support them.
apushatayid: youve got it right. zionists are alive only by means of the artificial life provided by satmar and the muslims. they see zionists under the bed, in the sink, behind the door, in the glove compartment of the car, underneath the chair, way up the chimney hole and even deep down inside the toilet bowl.
The Zionists chashvuhu leru’uh and said eretz yisroel ocheles yoishvehu hee thinking yidishkiet would be devoured by the eretz but eloikim chushuv letoiva and was mekabeitz the galuyois, performed open miracles to assist the mitzvis asseh kibbish eretz yisoel and put us on the path of geuleh.
the zionists are fading and the torah is winning. but with winning comes responsibilities. will the torah world be up for the responsibilities?
rf:
Regarding your motzi shem ra about me that I do not “recognize the importance of E”Y”:
Actually, it is precisely because I do recognize the importance of E”Y that only reinforces the gedolim’s stated views of how Zionism is a non-starter.
Zionism and, liHavdil the land of E”Y are, of course, contrary to Zionist fantasy, wholly separate entities.
Regarding your motzi shem ra about my allegedly not recognizing hashgacha pratis, this is also absurd.
Presumably, you wrote that because I don’t believe in the Zionist fantasy that the very founding of Israel innately means that Hashem wanted it to happen. By your logic, one could say the same about the Holocaust, the Egel, or anything else.
Of course Hashem runs the world. But that He allows something to happen does not at all mean that He “WANTS” that to happen.
My Torah is the one given on Har Sinai and the mesorah from rebbi to talmid that followed.
edited
Hakatan-
I believe you are failing to recognize yad hashem and hashgochah pratis not just because the state’s existence means hashem wanted it to happen. Rather, the state’s mind-blowing military, economic, scientific, and religious successes are what make it obvious that the state is a nes. Haiti was also created in 1948, but they haven’t won a war in 6 days, worked on making cancer vaccines, or housed with thousands of bochurim in Yerushalayim Ir Hakodesh, learning more Torah than ever before.
Goyishe historians, frei Jews, and Evangelical American Xtians all think that these are miracles. It’s sad that these rechoikim have more vision than us keroivim.
LF: So, were this year’s theatrics enough for you? 🙂
And we didn’t even get to Lag Baomer yet!
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