What's your proof?

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  • #895584
    interjection
    Participant

    I was a cynical BY student and these proofs never worked for me. I believe because I know it’s true but one needs to believe first for a proof to be entirely irrefutable. I was going to post a contention for every proof offered thus far, my only purpose being to show that one need believe because he knows it’s true and not because someone told him a feel good story that made him want to believe. But my intention is to build other’s emunah and not to open anyone’s mind to more questions. I keep the Torah because it’s true and not because of these ‘cool’ proofs because every single one can be argued.

    Sell the Torah for what it is; genius and perfect! No ‘proof’ will bring any thinking person to become shomer Torah.

    #895585
    Sam2
    Participant

    Ready now: You are using assumptions to prove your own assumptions. Which is fine. You don’t need concrete proof for this. But your “proofs” are not proofs.

    #895586
    interjection
    Participant

    Frummy: “If you know of R’ Keleman’s proof, which follows your line of reasoning, we can skip several steps and boil his ‘bomb’ down to the fact that no other religion has ever made such a claim as ‘national revelation'”

    This one I will argue because you’re quoting him wrong. I remember hearing from his lips that there is another religion that claims this. He did not tell us which religion it was, but the Mormons have it written explicitly in their bible of a mass revelation.

    #895587
    2scents
    Participant

    I did not read all the posts, however the Reshonim discuss this. The Ramaban talks about this.

    Harav Avigdor Miller A”H spoke about these issues so many times at his lectures, in fact he has designated lectures only for this topic.

    #895588
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    how can you say that? what then do you call proof? a picture from a camera? A video? is that the only “proof” for you?

    Did I say any such thing? While a video would be nice, it’s far from the only form of evidence available. Logical proofs are also acceptable — but I’ve yet to find one that stands up.

    why can’t you use logic, and your brain to assess a situation such as Ma’amid Har Sinai which was given in front of 3,000,000 people, to be iron-clad proof enough for you??? It boggles my mind! Here you have 3 million witnesses to G-d’s revelation and they all pass this down to their children. Does this not stand up high enough for “intellectual scrutiny”??? 3 million witnesses…..

    what WOULD be “proof” according to you? what would YOU say that would be undisputable evidence? I can not provide proof to you, if you do not DEFINE what YOU consider to be proof.

    Very simple answer — from whence do you know that 3 million people stood at Har Sinai? The answer, of course, is the Torah. You cannot use the Torah as proof of the Torah’s claims.

    Personally, I’m a bit puzzled myself. I never understood why people *need* ironclad evidence for Torah Min HaShamayim. I certainly don’t. I believe it — period.

    It’s really very simple — if you tell me that you believe for some non-evidentiary reason, then I have no argument with you. If you say that the Invisible Pink Unicorn exists, despite a lack of evidence, then I have no argument. I may think you’re wrong, but that’s just my opinion.

    Once, however, you start insisting that you have proof to the existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn, then I’m going to call you on it and demand that the proof actually be, well, provable.

    The Wolf

    (edited to add missing em tags)

    #895589
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    My proof is that everything within the Torah is brilliant. All the mitzvot make such beautiful, perfect sense. I know with certanity that if I managed to keep all the mitzvot perfectly and I lived in a society that did as well, I would live the absolute happiest life possible.

    I went off for a few years because the BY education I was given would twist and manipulate the Torah using this random perush and skipping that concept to make it more fluffy and appealing. I came back because I discovered the Torah in it’s naked truth and I recognize that there is nothing more genius than the Torah.

    That is not proof.

    Don’t get me wrong — if you believe the perfection of the mitzvos gives you greater spritual fulfillment and a greater kesher to HKBH — that’s beautiful — all the more power to you. That’s a wonderful thing and halevai more people should feel as you do. But it’s not a proof that the Torah is Min HaShamayim.

    The Wolf

    #895590
    Sam2
    Participant

    I was a cynical BY student and these proofs never worked for me. I believe because I know it’s true but one needs to believe first for a proof to be entirely irrefutable. I was going to post a contention for every proof offered thus far, my only purpose being to show that one need believe because he knows it’s true and not because someone told him a feel good story that made him want to believe. But my intention is to build other’s emunah and not to open anyone’s mind to more questions. I keep the Torah because it’s true and not because of these ‘cool’ proofs because every single one can be argued.

    Sell the Torah for what it is; genius and perfect! No ‘proof’ will bring any thinking person to become shomer Torah.

    Interjection said it best. There’s no reason to discuss this further.

    #895591
    tzaddiq
    Member

    “Very simple answer — from whence do you know that 3 million people stood at Har Sinai? The answer, of course, is the Torah. You cannot use the Torah as proof of the Torah’s claims.

    My dear friend. you totally missed my point. It’s NOT JUST FROM THE TORAH that I know this. That’s my point. You can never make something up like that! Never! If you claim 3,000,000 people witnessed something you better make sure they did before people start asking you for a witness. So 3300 years ago when it was first stated that there was a ma’amid har sinai, there must have been SOMETHING, or this ridiculous claim would have been ignored and eventually disappear into oblivion, and judaism would have NEVER gotten off the ground. (think of what the first pesach seder would have been like if it was a fallacy.)

    #895592
    TheReader
    Participant

    nepharim +1

    Emuna Peshuta is definitely NOT enough.

    A great resource for this is Rabbi Dovid Sapirman – Ani Maamin Foundation [google AniMaamin or Dovid Sapirman]. His lectures [24 in all] are available in both mp3 and CDs.

    Besides proving that Hashem exists, runs the world [debunks evolution], he proves that Hashem gave both the written and Oral Torah.

    He also has a little booklet on Emuna [published by Torah Umesora]

    Great reading and necessary listening.

    Highly recommended.

    #895594
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    It’s NOT JUST FROM THE TORAH that I know this.

    Since the Mods refuse to close the thread….

    I assume that you have an additional primary source of Matan Torah (other than the Torah itself)? Please share it with the rest of us.

    I was going to say more, but will try not to do so (for now).

    Interestingly, a major proof against the “600,000 people saw it” proof is the revisionist history movements of the 20th & 21st centuries (such as Stalinism, 1984, and the Charaidi community). Statements like “everyone in Europe was learned and wore black hats/straimels” prove how history can be twisted by an elite.

    #895596
    Sam2
    Participant

    Mods, please close this thread. I am beyond torn by it. On the hand hand I don’t C”V want to harm anyone’s Emunah. On the other hand, I feel like seeing these incorrect proofs for the Torah will harm people’s Emunah once they realize why it’s incorrect. That is a major problem with people’s Emunah being based on “proof”. Once you realize that the proof isn’t ironclad, you might C”V start to doubt the Ikkar involved. There are lower-level “proofs” that we all need to find for ourselves, but the basis has to be belief. Thus, no good can come from discussing these proofs so long as there are people involved whose source for Emunah is a proof. It’s one thing if we knew that everyone here had complete Emunah and that the proofs are just a nice addition. Then the proofs are worth discussing. But since I am sure that there are people here who would stop believing (or at least have questions) if their particular proof was disproven, no good can come of this discussion in an open forum. So please, close this thread.

    #895597
    frummy in the tummy
    Participant

    This is how I understand R’ Keleman’s proof based on national revelation; I will write ‘A’ for every “proof” to our having received the Torah from G-d at Sinai, and ‘Q’ for every “disproof”:

    A: 3 million people stood at Sinai and witnessed G-d give the Torah to Moshe.

    Q: Maybe they lied.

    A: The likelihood that 3 million people could have pulled off a lie of that magnitude, and that none of those 3 million would reveal the secret, is ridiculously small and pretty much unfathomable. No other religion has even made such a claim because a claim like that could only stand if it were actually true.

    Q: Who says there were actually 3 million ppl? Maybe somebody made up this story at some point in history?

    A: In what form could this lie have been presented such that the facts on the ground (i.e. we Jews believe our ancestors received the Torah from G-d) would match the story we have all been brought up to believe? Let’s break it down into a past, present, or future lie, i.e. the person or people (let’s call him Bob) who made this lie up came over to a group of people (the would-be Jews), handed them the Torah (written by Bob), and either convinced them that they or their descendants would eventually receive this Torah from G-d (future), that they themselves had received this Torah from G-d (present), or that their ancestors of the past had received this Torah from G-d (past) and Bob is returning it to them. Future is impossible, because the message that would be passed on to future generations is that the Torah has yet to be given (or at least verified by G-d). Present lie is hard, because you must convince a large group of people that they saw something which they did not. Past is the only real possible lie, where you are just returning the long-lost religion of their ancestors back to them, but in order for it to work, there should be a large gap in the history books from the time the Torah was ‘given’ to the time it was ‘regiven’ by Bob. Also, how come there is no record of this ever important Bob in the history books?

    Q: Let’s focus on past lie: There are several figures in Tanach who could have filled the role of “Bob”; for example Ezra HASOFER. (Like any good yeshiva bochur, I know pretty much nothing about Nach, so I don’t know how easy or difficult it is to say Ezra is our Bob). Also, isn’t there some thing about there being like 160 years missing between the batei mikdashos? Anybody else heard of such a thing? If so, that could be our significant time gap which would allow past lie to take shape.

    A: What about people today who have a historical lineage (either father-son or rebbe-talmud) back to Sinai? Doesn’t that negate there being a gap?

    Q: Remember, Bob is one smart individual, and because this is past lie, he didn’t have to actually go to a group of 3 million people. Imagine he came up to a village of 100 – 1000 people and had them gather around. He tells them he is a prophet and their 3 million ancestors received the Torah (and they lost it due to lack of faith, natural disaster, etc.). He is convincing, but they want to know their lineage back to the Torah’s giving – was it great-grandpa, great-great, 5 greats, 8 greats? So he asks them for their lineage as far back as they know, and then makes up the rest from there. And why question Bob? After all, he is a prophet. And this group grew quickly. A group of 100 people for which the average family size is 4 kids and the average generation is 25 years will grow to more than 6 million within 400 years. And now the entire nation will believe that their 3 million ancestors received the Torah from G-d, and some will even have a lineage back to its giving.

    A: (The “Bomb”) Okay, so maybe the claim of national revelation in and of itself isn’t so strong. But then why is it unique to the Jews? If it’s so easy to reproduce, why doesn’t every Tom, Dick, and Harry start a religion based on national revelation? There have been thousands of religions and cults formed throughout history, and as far as we know only one is founded on national revelation. It seems to be that national revelation is very unlikely to have been caused by a natural phenomenon. One of the fundamental principles of science is that things that are natural tend to reoccur, reappear, have cycles, etc. and in terms of history, well, history repeats itself. So if it is very unlikely that the national revelation story occurred naturally, that makes it much more LIKELY that occurred supernaturally.

    Q: (This is my own) I can’t say I ever found his “bomb” so compelling, but along his line of reasoning, you might as well just say the fact that the world’s technology and communication is more advanced than it ever has been is “supernatural”, because that is the real reason no such claim has been reproduced. It just wouldn’t have a place to get off the ground under the conditions of today, nor probably those of the past couple centuries. Any claim like that would be too easily verified or disproved from countless sources. And once you’ve eliminated the possibility of national revelation reocurring in the future or having occurred any time recently, how many religions do you really have left to choose from (that we know the origin of and are more than let’s say 250 years old) and say, “Oh wow, Judaism must be really special because it’s the ONLY one with that kind of claim”? 10? 20? Idk, to me a 1/20 chance doesn’t really seem “proof-worthy”.

    Let me know if anything I’ve said makes any sense at all.

Viewing 12 posts - 51 through 62 (of 62 total)
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