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I am embarrassed to say ive never even heard of telegram until now and I am usually on top of these things
Mammele: when they ban WhatsApp that means anything similar including Telegram. That should be pretty obvious.
Even though with WhatsApp stuff can spread faster than with just a printing press, the shelf life of the information is also shorter. people move on to the next thing very quickly and people will forget quicker. its easy to bury information
Something spread via the printing press can have a very long shelf life
I personally can understand how WhatsApp can get out of hand, but do feel it is within the control of the user. I’m part of a group that posts videos sometimes. I can choose whether or not I actually want to download and view the video. The preview is blurry, but you can ask the person who put it up what it is. With multimedia text messaging you can do the same, but the advantage/disadvantage of WhatsApp is first of all how smoothly it works, second of all how groups work. In a group text any member of the group can add other members. On WhatsApp only the group owner can add others to the group. I can send voice messages over multimedia text as well. My picture is not a picture of me- none of my friends actually put a picture of themselves. I will probably change it once I find it boring (which will probably take several months). I treat it the same as my profile photo for my email. My status actually gets changed in my email account but I have never changed it on my WhatsApp.
DY:
“I have been advised by someone involved in phone and computer filtering and monitoring programs that people should stay away from WhatsApp – not because of some theory a rebbe or rav came up with, but based on real life experiences.”
The conclusion does not follow from the implied premise. I have no doubt (he wrote sarcastically) that thousands of otherwise entirely innocent people are attracted to a life of crime by Whatsapp. However, I am not making a decision for thousands of people. I am making a decision for myself and my family. I am confident that neither me nor my siblings are in danger of (to use the euphemisms) getting “caught up” in a “web of aveiros” simply because we use the same communication app as other people who have used those apps for wrongful purposes.
VM: But from a tzibbur point-of-view, the leaders need to discourage its use based on what DY described.
(he wrote sarcastically) that thousands of otherwise entirely innocent people are attracted to a life of crime by Whatsapp.
That wasn’t quite his concern. His issue was that those with more restrictive standards are exposed to material posted (is that the correct term?) by those with lesser standards (and it’s not so easy to exclude your less frum brother from the family group).
Joseph: Not really. Not every problem requires a ban as its solution.
By the story of one person..Nobody should ride the subway
2 people are riding the subway , one is frum and one isnt jewish. for some reason they get into an inadvertant conversion (Sometimes happens on the Subway when something unusual happens) and then they get into a regular conversation after that is over
The 2 people strike up a friendship and eventually get married. It is not a fantasy, this actally does happend
The arrival of Moshiach will be announced to the entire world populations at once and instantly via the Internet.
VM: Not every, but some. There is a good argument for this one.
By the story of one person..Nobody should ride the subway
According to your approach in these discussions, there would be no concept of a “fence” (???) in the Torah altogether, but Chazal in fact said that we should add extra safeguards (??? ??? ?????).
The gathering of many moving to israel would not have been possible without the modern techonological marvel the Airplane
Joe: You asked what the difference was, I mentioned it. The security is top-notch, to the point that until recently it was ISIS’s PMing tool of choice. If you check out their website you’ll see more differences, but that’s the main one.
I have no idea why that would make it more dangerous than WhatsApp. You just asked what the difference was.
smc: What’s so objectionable about what cherrybim said?
It’s called having some restraint, people! I love WhatsApp because I can speak with older relatives on other continents and it helps them feel closer to their favorite niece!
I am not much of a texter or whatsapper or even emailer…life is far more interesting and usually I am too busy creating to stop and respond to every little bell and whistle.
Mammale love your name, and yours too, WritersSoul.
smc – it’s as tamey (sic) as your telephone.
DY
The writer of that article was a phony with an agenda
The first line of the article
Siri is a Iphone App, The writer had an iPhone. While I dont doubt Some Satmars have iPhones even though the Rebbe prohibits them, They are not supposed to have iPhones
smc – It is and it isn’t.
Irresponsible posting is the problem. By naming a specific forum it allows people to change chat apps and feel guilt free.
And one of the names initially mentioned as killed B”H survived (and even those that didn’t weren’t yet declared dead when the messages started flying.) So the lesson here is: in times of tragedy never try to be first to report about it, all the more so if you have no real clue what’s going on and are just parroting information.
Some people call the fact that the child wasn’t notified sooner lack of communication, without realizing that someone must find the right person in close proximity to break the news gently to each family member, and IN PERSON. Very often next of kin is first told that their family member was hospitalized without mentioning that he/she has unfortunately already passed away — to not shock them. And if the person has health issues there may need to be a Paramedic nearby to administer medication if warranted.
May we only hear besuras tovas and happily broadcast the news!
ZD, they can have Androids but not iPhones? If so, what’s the difference?
I have no idea if the article is phony or not, but your argument isn’t convincing.
Siri is specifically for iPhone. its that thing where you talk into the phone and it answers you (in a female voice..Almost Prizus like). It is not available for Android, I think there is something similar for Android, but its not as well known as Siri
Understood, but why does that make you think the article is a phony?
Because the author was bemoaning WhatsApp when he had an Iphone with a Prizus voice.
I dont know of Rabbanim had discouraged use of Siri or not, but they certainly should. the voice was made to be Prizus like. But I do know the Satmar Rebbe has banned iPhones and this was an iPhone, not an Android
Android is no better than iphone. What makes you think Satmar allows android if they prohibit Iphone? Clearly any phone that has whatsapp is prohibited by the Satmar Rebbe. Which has unfortunately not stopped many Satmars from having them.
ZD, why do you assume it’s a he?
Obviously, the author has a smartphone; she’s part of several WhatsApp groups. I don’t know if Satmar “bans” smartphones, but I can tell you that many chassidim have them for work, and I don’t think Android or iPhone makes any difference.
Joseph-
They banned the internet.
They banned smartphones.
Did it help?
No.
Will banning Whatsapp help?
Banning isn’t working. The internet is a keli with so many functions – both good and bad – and a completely different animal than historic challenges.
Instead of chasing after an endless cycle of banning, banning new things, banning newer things, which rov am isn’t listening to anyway – how about teaching about boundaries? And how to use technology appropriately as mentchen? How about teaching how to use middos, empathy, common sense and rational behavior in every aspect of life, including online?
Instead of wasting energy uselessly decrying that which exists and will continue to exist, why not accept that the internet is here to stay whether you ban it or not, and spend that fiery energy teaching crucial skills for navigating the internet successfully?
gofish: Of course the bans helped. Just because some people violate them doesn’t mean it didn’t help the very many people who adhere to them.
TV is banned and yet some people violate that ban too. It still a tremendous benefit for all the people who don’t have a TV due to the ban, whereas they otherwise would have.
Speed limits don’t help. They should abolish speed limits because some people violate them.
I think the point is when you permit too many things you water down stuff and when you ban too many things you also water down and make a mockery.
And to use the speed limit Analogy
If you make a speed limit 90 MPH most people would agree
Now start lowering the speed limit
The lower the speed limit the more people will disobey. When you make the Speed limit say 20 MPH most people will ignore
from your question it looks like you dont have these stuff.. so keep up the good work stay away from them!
Joseph-
They banned the internet.
They banned smartphones.
Did it help?
No.
Pretty much everyone “in my circle” has a dumb phone. A few have a filtered smartphone.
Most have Internet with filters. A few don’t have Internet.
This all happened after and primarily because of the Gedolim speaking out.
If a person wants to access inappropriate images, or speak lashon hara, they’ll find ways to do it, phone or no phone.
That is true, but the question is about someone who doesn’t “want” to see inappropriate images.
There are many different levels of “want”, and your comment only speaks to one of them.
Did you know the Chofetz Chaim would learn by candlelight and refused to learn by electric light
Source? (Or is this a well-known thing I’d never heard of?
Of course the bans helped. Just because some people violate them doesn’t mean it didn’t help the very many people who adhere to them.
The real question is whether a formal ban was necessary to
get the people who obey the ban not to have whatever it is.
In case you didn’t know, the internet is kulo tamey!
… Something kadosh will not go on something tamey.
Unless you’re calling all the Torah currently on the Internet
“not something kadosh,” I’d say you’re demonstrably wrong.
“The real question is whether a formal ban was necessary to
get the people who obey the ban not to have whatever it is.”
See the last sentence of Feivel’s last comment.
gofish:
Banning isn’t working. The internet is a keli with so many functions – both good and bad – and a completely different animal than historic challenges.
Meh. The same speech could have been given about TV thirty years ago.
Instead of chasing after an endless cycle of banning, banning new things, banning newer things, which rov am isn’t listening to anyway – how about teaching about boundaries? And how to use technology appropriately as mentchen?
I have some shocking news – most (litvishe) Rabbonim *aren’t* issuing blanket bans on the internet. They are stressing the absolute necessity of having a filter, and of making sure one’s life and the lives of one’s children are not taken over by empty nonsense.
dovrosenbaum:
If a person wants to access inappropriate images, or speak lashon hara, they’ll find ways to do it, phone or no phone.
I think it is imperative to take a little bit of a more nuanced view on this particular subject. Most people are neither a tzaddik gamur nor a rasha gamur; so to speak of people who always, without exception, do or don’t want to do aveiros is far-fetched at best. Most people try to what is right, but if they find themselves in a situation where they are faced with a significant enough temptation (everyone on their level), they will succumb to it. This is why Chazal set up various gedarim (in particular with regards to arayos, which the Gemara tells us “nafsho shel adam mechamdasam, the nature of a person strongly desires”) to ensure that a person does not end up in a situation of overwhelming temptation; the issurim of yichud, harchakos niddah, and kol bi’isha erva in particular come to mind. We try to avoid putting ourselves in situations of temptation and nisayon as much as possible; I don’t see why here should be any different.
They’ll osser What’sApp and then they’ll come out with something else, and it’ll just continue being a self-defeating cycle.
most (litvishe) Rabbonim *aren’t* issuing blanket bans on the internet
Rav Matisyahu Solomon was behind the Asifa that banned the internet (Unless you are going to argue that he had no idea that Rav Wosner was going to ban it against his wishes as his own event)
DR,
How is it self defeating?
ZD, the day after the asifa, R’ Mattisyahu had a meeting with rabbonim about how to implement filtering.
The problem is the Internet was already banned at the Asifa, trying to back track makes people think it wasnt serious
ZD,
Please just stop.
For your own sake.
Recent events may have helped some people understand (I’m not referring only to the hair incident).
Can’t stand WhatsApp
Random, what events are you referring to?
Randomex – what are you talking about?
What’s app with WhatsApp?
Hahahaha I crack myself up
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