What's wrong with the draft?

benignuman -“Show me a public statement (i.e. one that can be confirmed) by any Torah outsider praising the Chareidi refusal to serve in the IDF, and I will rethink whether or not it is a Chillul Hashem.”

You mean since you have no belief in our Gedolim -you need s/o who you consider a Godol to make such a statement before you believe it. IMHO, this is a Chillul Hashem. Our Gedolim said it’s Ossur to go to the Israeli army. This is from Gedolim from the previous generation. Even if I didn’t personally understand the reason, it’s a Kiddush Hashem to listen to them.

Along comes Mr. benignuman and says it’s a Chillul Hashem not to go to the army. I personally don’t care what you believe and neither do the Gedolim and those that follow them, who said you shouldn’t go to the Israeli army. Why should anyone even try to convince you otherwise?

im not really reading these posts but id like to point out to mdd- yelling chillul hashem and defining it based on your gut and what you think/believe bothers HKB”H does not make it so. there are men, great men, living and no longer, who know worlds more and understand worlds more than you do. give it up.

mdd -“Da’as Yochid, in times of the Chazon Ish and even later, it was not a Chilul HaShem because the frei and the Mizrachi Israelis did not mind giving money to the Yeshivos.”

This I don’t believe for a second! Why wouldn’t they mind? It’s like saying Americans 20 years ago didn’t mind paying taxes.

Noone wants to pay taxes, ever, they just have to.

Years ago, the Israelis just probably weren’t as vocal about it as they are now, but they never wanted to support Torah learning on a wide scale.

tsharer: You could not be more incorrect. It has always been the anti-frum in Israel that shoved against the frum, whose response was defensive. Of course the best defense is a good offense.

“Our Gedolim said it’s Ossur to go to the Israeli army. This is from Gedolim from the previous generation. Even if I didn’t personally understand the reason, it’s a Kiddush Hashem to listen to them.”

First of all, the situation today is different then it was in the previous generation. The IDF is willing to have glatt kosher units keeping high standards of halacha. There is no longer an official objective to secularize the members of the IDF.

Second of all, it is not a kiddush hashem to follow a ruling from a previous generation without knowing the reason why. Halachik and Hashkafic rulings of Gedolim (a.k.a. Daas Torah) are not meant to be followed blindly but to be followed based on an understanding of the reasoning behind them (assuming one has the capabilities to follow the reasoning). If you don’t understand the reasons behind the ruling then it is dangerous and foolish to apply it to different circumstances.

I am willing to listen, learn and understand. The original poster asked for an explanation. So far (with the possible exception of Akuperma, pending investigation) the explanations have been lacking. If someone gives me a good convincing pshat behind the purported (it would be nice to see an actual teshuvah) I will accept it.

Mdd,

First of all, I did not intend any personal insult. Now back to our discussion.

Even based on your premise that the frei used to willingly support learning, there are still big people, even today, who are perfectly capable of determining whether taking government money and sitting and learning is a chillul Hashem.

I’m curious as to your sources.

I imagine that they don’t go to the kosel so as not to benefit from the Zionists, am I correct ?

Where is your Emunas Chachomim?? Yes, the Gedolim know better than us. Yes, we must follow our Rabbonim regardless of whether we understand and/or agree with their decision. No, we cannot change the rabbonim we follow — like a new ice cream flavor — because we want to hear something different than what they are telling us.

benignuman -“First of all, the situation today is different then it was in the previous generation. The IDF is willing to have glatt kosher units keeping high standards of halacha. There is no longer an official objective to secularize the members of the IDF.”

You’re right – it’s different – it’s worse.

Btw, they never had an “official” objective to Shmad. Do you even know why people go OTD?

Did you ever hear of Purim? What was the big Aveira in those days – Achashveirosh had a Glatt Kosher party?

“If you don’t understand the reasons behind the ruling then it is dangerous and foolish to apply it to different circumstances.

I am willing to listen, learn and understand.”

This last line I don’t believe for a second. And I do know at least one reason, forget about the women singing which would be enough Not to go, do you even know why they have women soldiers?

I’ll tell you; it’s not because they are Amazon women and are better soldiers, (even though some guy just wrote an article that they are – which I don’t believe), it’s because they are good for morale and I’ll leave it at that.

benignuman -“There is a difference between Emunas Chachomim and treating Gedolim as infallible (what do you do when there is machlokes?). Emunas Chachomim means trusting the mesorah and trusting that the Chachomim are acting out of the best of intentions. It does not mean blind faith in what they say. They are not Neviim.”

So why do you trust these MO Rabbis when they say join the Israeli army?!?!?

Having segregated “frum” units should be seen as an insult. It means you are fit to die for the army, but not fit to be seen or promoted. The best analogy would be to the famous Buffalo soldiers (“colored” regiments) of the American army that existed from the Civil War through World War II, or the “native” or “colonial” units of the British army (both George Washington and Moshe Dayan served in such units). One should note that neither Goerge not Moshe were known by history as having been enthused by their love of their respective King Georges.

To say the army has changed, the command structure and most units would be frum (i.e. a ban on pritsus, enforcing yichad and negiah, all food being strictly kosher, all work schedules based on Jewish religious observances even if there are no frum soldiers in a unit, etc.), and perhaps having some “special” units for hilonim who while being patriotic zionists just can’t stand frum people.

Almost all gedolim, including many of the “zionist” ones, believe that yeshiva students should be exempt from the army since the work they are doing is at least as critical to national survival. Depending on politics, some gedolim believe even Baal ha-battim should refuse to serve in the army either because the army is anti-Torah, or because the Medinah is constituted contrary to halacha.

If there is a change in policy, we will see the leading yeshivos demanding that they be allowed to sponsor hesder programs, and we’ll see the children and grandchildren of the gedolim joining elite combat units and striving to be officers (and if that happens, you can be certain that exposing your self to naked women will no longer be part of the test for becoming an IDF officer).

Ben Levi,

There are two different categories that need to be clarified. There are Gedolim that hold that all Yeshivaleit should be drafted:

Rav Sholom Yofef Zevin Z”TL

Rav Aharon Lichtenstein Shlita

Rav Shlomo Aviner Shlita

There are then many more that hold Talmidei Chachomim should not be drafted but those that are not on that level should be drafted (and Yeshiva students could delay being drafted but should eventually serve):

Rav Avraham Yitzchak Hakohen Kook Z”TL

Rav Yehuda Amital Z”TL

Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook Z”TL

Rav She’ar Yoshuv Cohen Z”TL

I am not particularly familiar with the Mizrachi/Hesder world, so I would guess that there are many more whom I am not familiar with.

Health,

There are no women soldiers in Nahal HaChareidi or Hesder units. Please don’t slander the fine soldiers of those units who are risking their lives to protect Yidden.

Eruv in Brooklyn

Besides, the Charedim obviously consider the gedolim I am referring to to be the manhigei hador.

It’s pretty silly to expect them to follow those you mentioned.

benignuman -“There are no women soldiers in Nahal HaChareidi or Hesder units.”

Tell me also that there are No women on their bases and in their boot camp.

“Please don’t slander the fine soldiers of those units who are risking their lives to protect Yidden.”

Please don’t slander the fine Jews of Klal Yisroel spending their lives learning Torah instead of going to the IDF!

I must give you a dubious award. There are a lot of Zionists that post here, but you are by far the most brainwashed of all the MO/Mizrachi posters here!

Health,

mdd -“Quite frankly, I am tired of writing the same thing again and again.

And quite frankly, I am tired of reading your same Naarishkeit again & again!

I was waiting for such a response. 🙂

Do you consider Not going to the army a Taanah that is fair and reasonable?

Mdd was referring to taking money, not joining the army.

MDD: If the yeshiva guys stop taking any money from the Israeli government, would you support the frum yidden refusing to serve in the army even if the government wanted to draft them?

DaasYochid -“Mdd was referring to taking money, not joining the army.”

(Take 2:)

Can someone kindly provide a coherent, articulate explanation of why the Charaidim should have to serve in the Israeli army?

I personally don’t think it makes any sense to drag the learners out of the Bais Medrash and make them serve in the army when the army has no need for additional soldiers. All that will accomplish is that each person would serve for a shorter amount of time. So we would end up with less people learning, and yet the army wouldn’t get any bigger.

So why draft the Charaidim?

Kanoi,

To get votes.

mdd- and i suppose you understand gemaras beter than the great men who know shas fluently, have written exstensively on it, and understand that going to the army is yihureg vi’al yaavor?

i understand you dont agree. i understand you think theyre wrong (as retarded as that makes you), but i dont understand why you think we’re crazy for picking them over you.

Kanoi,

Assuming you are correct that the army has no need for additional soldiers, would you be opposed to the Chareidim using a Hesder like system and the surplus of soldiers allowing for the current Hesder boys and the Chareidim to each have shorter stints in the army and more time learning?

Toi, drei nit ken kup!! Why was Rabi Chanina ben Tradion’s wife punished for not being moche on him? After all, he knew Shas better! Stop with the propaganda!

Mdd,

It’s one thing to discuss an issue, but I hope you didn’t just say that you are being moche!

R’ yisroel of vitznitz has quoted that the brisker rov zatza”l was reluctant to sign on the protest against giyus banot, saying that not only is giyus banot ossur, so is giyus banim.

In terms of who the gedoilim are, one has to rely on hashgacha elyonah that hashem gives every generation the right people, so if one sees that chahcam ovadia is treated as manhig by the sefardim, R’ steiman, r’ karelitz, r’ kanievsky and r’ aeurbach by the ashkenazim, and the rabbanim of the eida hachareidit and satmar by the kania’im, alongside the respective rebbes of belz, gur, and viznitz, one can rely on their da’at tora for our generation, even if r’ aron lichtenstein feels differently.

When the chazoin ish was asked for the source that giyus banot is forbidden, he opened his shirt and pointed to his heart. One does not need to see the sources, when one sees a person who has learnt torah passionately for many years – such as chacham Ovadia, – one can rely on their pure hearts a a source.

No, the army would never give up their pritzus for that. This is Provence so openly every time there is another report that the army forced religious mizrachi soldiers to listen to Kol Isha against their will. Is the Kol Isha helping them fight better? Of course not. It is the pritzus they wish to IMPOSE on others.

And that is why there are MULTIPLE reasons the Gedolim are dead set against frum yidden joining the army. Something we must fight with our lives against.