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benignuman -“I am saying that it isn’t right that only the Chilonim and the Daati Leumi/Mizrachi/Hesder risk their lives in the IDF when the Chareidim get the same protection. The reason the Chareidim avoiding army service bothers so many other Israelis is that they feel that they and their children are risking their lives and the Chareidim are not.”
First of all, how many army guys are actually in harm’s way? More get hurt from inside terrorist attacks than fighting any enemy.
Second of all, Why isn’t it right? The Charedim are protecting them with their learning! Unless you believe in “Koach V’ozem Yodi Osseh Es Hacayil Hazeh”?
Ben Levi, and had there been an Arab state instead of the Medinah, do you for a second think they would pay for all the Chareidim to stay in kollel?
And working chutznik Chareidi tourists do not generate enough money to support all the Israeli Chareidim. Come on!
MDD: There is no major outcry by the secular to block people in kollel from receiving minimal welfare. The folks in kollel get very little money, barely enough to feed their family. There is no way to structure the law to block kollel guys from collecting welfare while allowing non-kollel guys from collecting welfare. If they stop one, they stop the other. Do you advocate ending welfare and letting poor children starve? How else do you suppose they would end payments to the poor?
I am advocating the Israeli Chareidim start worrying about how their actions look in the eyes of outsiders. Chilul HaShem is a very big avierah.
What of the people in the middle, the traditional shomer shabbat? Israeli jews, who do serve in the army, not just dati leumi, but sephardi traditional mizrachi jews, who are happy and honoured to do both, learn Torah and serve in the army, learn Torah and work, pay taxes and support the wider community.
The arrogance of those thinking they are not meant to serve because they protect Yiddishkeit with their learning and observance is breathtaking. There are plenty of soldiers who keep mitzvot and do their army service, or if they wish opt out and do a communal voluntary posting instead.
Yes there were some charedi Jews in Israel 1948 and if they opposed the state and its army their descendants may feel they do not need to serve, but how many frum immmigrants have come into Israel over the years, taken all they can from the state and not serve, thousands, just visit Ramat Beit Shemesh and see the upheaval and bitterness they have caused.
Zahavasdad you are absolutely right about the wave of grief that followed the killings in Mumbai and the respect shown to those killed. The State of Israel flew all those killed home, Chabad had state funerals but of course the Satmar refused, but they allowed the State to fly the deceased over. Right now the Satmar with foreign money are in Israel campaigning against the State, if they all hate it so much, let them go. Speak to Israeli social workers about child abuse or domestic violence in places like meah shearin and they will tell of you a community that will riot against the police or medical crews, but not stop internal suffering amongst their own weakest and most vulnerable. Tragic that what was meant to be a token of kindness of Ben Gurion is now abused so many years later, deals can be broken and the charedi world should find a way to make their men do their part of the bargain in an appropriate way.Cowardice is not part of Torah teaching.
Why is the child of a Haredi more precious than a child of any other Israeli? Learning is very important and so is serving. You don’t have to join the IDF..you can serve with Zaka, Ezer Mizion and a host of other religious organizations. Any Yeshiva that encourages their students not to report or serve, should loose all benefits. My grandson learns full time and served in the IDF and does millium . My 6 haredi nephews all learn and served in Nahal Haredi..there are no excuses….
mdd:
Kanoi, and if the Chareidim do not hold of them, they should not insist on living off them!
First of all, the Charaidim who do not hold of the Medina at all do not take any government funds.
Second, this has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying (that the Israeli army is merely taking care of a problem that they themselves created, and should not be demanding the Charaidim’s help).
benignuman:
If one accepts that it is only due to the Torah being learnt by the Charaidim that the army is successful, are the Charaidim not doing their part? Would one claim that it’s “not right” that only the soldiers risk their lives in the IDF while the generals stay behind the lines? Or would you say that everyone must do their part to keep the country protected?
mdd: There is not only no CH currently with the learning, there is a tremendous Kiddush Hashem by the learners.
tahini: The arrogance of those thinking they are not meant to learn Torah because they are serving in the Army is breathtaking. Those who are learning should continue full-time learning to make up for the vast majority who do no Limud Torah.
And Satmar did not ask or “allow” the State to fly the deceased over. The State did it without asking. Satmar would have rather have done it themselves rather than have the State desecrate the dead with their unholy flag wrapped around the coffin as a “shtuch” to frum yidden. And frum yidden opposed to the State have more right to be in Eretz Yisroel, where they lived before the zionists ever arrived, than do the zionists. The zionists are a violent war-mongering bunch who came in violence and remain steeped in it.
Kanoi, theconflict was brought by the creation of the Medinah, but so was the flow of cash to the Yeshivos. It is very crooked to accept and use only those aspects of the Medinah that are beneficial.
The Kanoi Next Door: to get to the rank of general one must start off at the bottom, and serve as an ordinary soldier.
Visit any hospital or clinic in Israel and see the number of charedi families benefitting from the State.
Miriam, thank you for your post, those living outside of Israel do not always realise the different options available to serve one’s country.
I cannot understand the concept of those engaged in Torah learning being disengaged from the world around them, quite the contrary the brave souls form Nahal Haredi, or volunteer in Zaka are closely connected to all of Klal Yisrael. The stigma of how does it look haunts so many haredi communities, breaking away from social expectations and doing the right thing is the action of the brave. Fear of breaking away with traditions which are in themselves only recent minhagim dominate the charedi rabbonim, who politically are busy using imagined slights against Gadolim to canvass opinion against the State as well as each other.
The Kanoi Next Door: to get to the rank of general one must start off at the bottom, and serve as an ordinary soldier.
I don’t know about Israel, but in the U.S. that’s certainly not true.
People can become officers without ever having served in the lower (enlisted) ranks through graduation from a service academy or direct appointment.
The Wolf
Let Israel institute an all-volunteer army like the United States.
I don’t understand why anyone would want to force people to stop learning Torah all day to go to an army that does not have a need for additional soldiers than they already have. As it is they have enough soldiers. If you take people away from Torah and make them soldiers, the Israeli Army will simply have to reassign others who were never learning in the first place into some task other than fighting, as they aren’t currently short-staffed as it is. It is absurd to take Torah people away from the Torah to make them soldiers, so you can take soldiers away from being soldiers and make them into cooks or something.
Let the Torah people learn all day. There is no comparison between learning Torah all day and learning half a day. The more Torah the better, and the more Torah the more protection. A full day of Limud Torah does more for Klal Yisroel than a half a day of Limud Torah (with the other half soldiering.)
In Israel to be a general you need to work up the ranks, USA has a voluntary army, there is a difference. Similarily in the Israeli Army no one is thinking of actually drafting charedi into combat units, there are plenty of jobs and training to be given in other areas such as admin, para medic, etc, there of course are organisations like Zaka where men can serve within strictly orthodox groups.
Sushee you are fortunate to be living in the USA where you are safe and the wars your country wage are not on your doorstep, in Israel it is important for the morale of the state for all to show themselves willing to make a contribution.
Israel is a young new country and needs all hands on deck to make things work. I have been in Jerusalem when the call up was sent out for reservists, seen orthodox men take their seats on the army buses and charedi neighbours watch them go by, can you not understand the resentment and sense of insjustice people feel. The m The men I saw being called up had all been to yeshivas for some time, including my own sons.
Right now Satmar are campaining in Israel against the elections, people here in the CR are saying that Satmar are taking nothing from the State. Well who is paying for the policing and security bill for this grand show against the evil zionists?
MDD And Tahini
You are ignoring a point that has been made over and over.
Satmar and other hard core anti zionists (Brisk) take no money from the Medinah, period.
Reb Zalman Leib is their distributing money because they take nothing from the Medinah, period.
Furthermore you seem to have some sort of obsession with “how things look”.
The Gedolei Yisroel and the talmidim who follow them don’t seem to have this obsession with “how things look” maybe they don’t have an identity crisis.
Instead they do what they feel is correct.
The Gedoliom have stated to serve in the ISreali Army is incorrect and to sit in Yeshiva is correct.
Now as to your slander against Meah Shearim.
It’s comical when every ISreali knows about the complete moral breakdown in Secular Isreali Society, a breakdown so complete that it has driven Tens of thousands of ISreali’s to send their children to Chareidi Yeshivos not just because they want some Torah in their lives but because they wnt them out of the dysfunctional Isreali School System.
And those people are now going to lecture us about how we should deal with problems?
And no, I did not state that The Tourisim Industry pays for all Social Welfare in Isreal it can’t since there are millions recieving benefits but only 60.000 people sitting and learning Torah.
You, however stated that the MEdinah pays for all kollel yougeleit.
That is an untruth.
Chareidim bring in plenty of money as well through tourisim, and through buisness (Yes the Chareidim have plenty of buisness I have hundreds of reletives in Eretz Yisroel and plenty of them work.
I also would posit that Satmar should be refunded the millions of dollars they are now generating for the State of ISreal since they are recieving no benefit from it.
Satmar never asked for the security and indeed opposed the creation of the state from the very beginning, that now requires the security. They cannot hold them responsible for the situation they themselves created and instigated.
Ben Levi, I am not talking about Brisk, Satmar and NK — they are a small minority.
I do not have an obsession. The Torah is very concerned about Chilul HaShem! How can you say otherwise?!?
Ben Levi, why is it a problem if a Ben Torah acts rudely? Who cares what anybody thinks? Right?
Techina: “I cannot understand the concept of those engaged in Torah learning being disengaged from the world around them, quite the contrary the brave souls form Nahal Haredi, or volunteer in Zaka are closely connected to all of Klal Yisrael. The stigma of how does it look haunts so many haredi communities, breaking away from social expectations and doing the right thing is the action of the brave. Fear of breaking away with traditions which are in themselves only recent minhagim dominate the charedi rabbonim, who politically are busy using imagined slights against Gadolim to canvass opinion against the State as well as each other.”
What you don’t understand is that the Gedolim are basing their opinions on the Torah. It’s the MO community that has broken away from the Torah teachings from Time Immemorial. So it’s the Zionists, including the Frum ones, who have disengaged from the Jewish people, not the other way around. The Torah and the Jews are One!
“in Israel it is important for the morale of the state for all to show themselves willing to make a contribution.”
And the Frumme in Kollel are doing more than their fair share!
“Israel is a young new country and needs all hands on deck to make things work. I have been in Jerusalem when the call up was sent out for reservists, seen orthodox men take their seats on the army buses and charedi neighbours watch them go by, can you not understand the resentment and sense of insjustice people feel. The men I saw being called up had all been to yeshivas for some time, including my own sons.”
The only reason you resent this is because you don’t have a Frum upbringing, only a MO one. You don’t believe that Torah learning protects the Jews in Israel. But it does, probably even more so than the army. A guy once told me after a war, that during a war he was shot and got discharged. When he got out of the hospital he went straight to R’ Schach zt’l, while still in uniform. He told him his story and R’ Schach zt’l responded -“You think the war is fought on one front, it’s actually fought on two fronts -the front and the Bais Medrash!”
Satmar should be refunded? Maybe all the foreigners who come there also should be refunded? And I did not mean to say that the Chareidi tourism brings in enough money to support all the wellfare there. I meant it does not bring enough to support all the Chareidim there. Most of whom do not and would not work.
Ben Levi, your arguments are below any standard!
Ben Levi, Gemorah in perek Ha’Orel (Yevamos) says that Dovid Ha’Melech executed Shoul Ha’Melech’s relatives because of a somewhat far-off chashash of Chillul HaShem. Did he c^v have a split identity or was c^v obsessed?
Why waste your time debating this? Everyone knows the Chareidim will never change their learning system. And quit trying to force them as it is clear they will resist with their lives. Even the Israeli politicians acknowledge they cannot force the Chareidim to serve involuntarily.
mdd -“It is very crooked to accept and use only those aspects of the Medinah that are beneficial.”
So Ben-Gurion should never have accepted these terms. Obviously he did because he was more intelligent than the Chilonim and the MO/religious zionists nowadays. He actually knew what was really important for the survival of the Medina and that included the Frumme and their full-time learning.
Health and Kanoi,
You are still missing the point. The issue is not that Chareidim aren’t doing anything to protect the country. The Torah and Mitsvos they do is certainly a tremendous zchus that allows Israel to maintain its existence.
However, the Chareidim (other than those in Nachal Hacharedi) are not risking their lives. They have only the upside without the downside. People avoid army service, not because they don’t value protecting Jews, but because they are afraid of death and serious injury.
It is not the learning of Torah Jews that generates animosity, it is the fact that they do not put themselves in a position where they might have to make the ultimate sacrifice.
And Health, before you make an ad hominem attack, I went to Chareidi Yeshivos in America and Eretz Yisroel, I lived in a Chareidi neighborhood and I learned in kollel. I am not Modern Orthodox and never have been.
Ben Levi,
In Halacha and Hashkafa how things look is also important. The posuk says “you should be pure before Hashem and Israel.” That the Chareidim do not sent their children to the army is certainly Chillul Hashem and the Religious Zionists have good reason to be upset with us.
1. Having a professional army would be a logical solution. Almost all countries have switched to professional armies, including the United States. The days when you could take someone off the street, give him a cram course, and send him out to be cannon foder – are long gone. This would be a “win-win” solution since Hareidim who refuse to serve in the army for religious or political reasons would be free to work in the “official” economy, and the professionalism of the army would be better militarily.
2. However since 1948, the zionists have seen the IDF primarily as a tool for “nation building”. They feel a need to break down religious, cultural and ethnic barriers and create the “modern Israeli” – who happens to be secular. They are very reluctant to give this up.
3. Another serious implication for the Israelis, is that being a veteran is the historic prerequisite for many jobs and for entry into the establishment. Eliminating this barrier who create the possibility of Hareidim expanding beyond the existing ghetto and taking over the country – which given that fact that Hareidim like children, and Hilonim don’t – is a serious threat. Remember that the whole idea of zionism, since the 19th century, was to create a nation free from the yoke of Torah. From the zionist ruling class’s perspective, an Eretz Yisrael whose economy and political systems are dominated by hareidim means that their movement is a total failure.
What happened to those millions of jewish martyrs killed in the Shoah, many were learned and devout. They could not fight back, just as their brethen could not fight back when the pogroms destroyed so many lives earlier in the last century. Yet, go back hundreds of years to the times of David Hamelech and you will see the Jews fighting, defending themselves and learning Torah too. Rabbi Shach zt”l stood up when his uniformed IDF grandsons entered his yeshiva, yes the war is on two fronts, so man up and defend them both!
For those suggesting a professional army. This is able to work in the US because the US is a huge country that doesn’t need much defense on its borders and has a very large population. The US has 1.5 million active in its army and another half million in reserve but it is drawing from a population over 330 million. Basically the army is .5% of the population.
Israel has a population of 7 million and needs large army because it is surrounded by enemies and potential enemies on all sides. .5% of the population in the army would be 3,500 which is 10% of the size of the NYPD’s uniformed officers.
A professional army would be suicidal.
benignuman: All combat soldiers are volunteers. The difference between a professional army and the conscript army is that most of the “jobniks” wouldn’t be there, and there work would be done by serious professionals rather than highly inefficient conscripts. Most of the jobniks (especially among the female coscripts) have make-work jobs. Some who volunteers now to be a combat (kravi), will still do so – and that’s what matters. If the army were short of manpower, they would be bending over backwards to create incentives for hareidim to enlist (rather than, as an example, making promotion to officer contingent on willing to listen to women singing).
The United States is not threated by foreign invasion. The last time an enemy threated the US, so many people wanted to volunteer that “selective service” was introduced so they would be enlisted in an orderly way. Even though the US military is primarily tasked with being a “global policeman” rather than national defense, it attracts many volunteers. If you look at countries actually threated with invasion (e.g Britain and Australia in World War II), one discovers that the percentage of volunteers jumps way up. It should be noted that Britain conquered one of the world’s largest empires without conscription for its army.
You have the history of Selective Service all wrong. We were never facing invasion when the SS system started and the President was elected on the claim that he will keep the US out of war.
Secondly, we fought the British in 1813 because they kept impressing US sailors on the grounds that they are really British.
benignuman -“Health and Kanoi,
However, the Chareidim (other than those in Nachal Hacharedi) are not risking their lives. They have only the upside without the downside. People avoid army service, not because they don’t value protecting Jews, but because they are afraid of death and serious injury.
It is not the learning of Torah Jews that generates animosity, it is the fact that they do not put themselves in a position where they might have to make the ultimate sacrifice.”
Are you saying some sort of Chiddush here? Welcome to reality. When Ben-Gurion said the Frumme don’t have to go to the army – he understood that army guys risk their lives. So why did he do it? Because he knew if there would be a country without people learning Torah and Shomrey Torah & Mitzvos – the country wouldn’t make it past their first war. So fast forward 60 years, instead of the Zionists who go to the army, and their families, whether Frum or not, thanking the Charedim for their existence, they start whining.
Do you want some cheese with that Whine?
Techina -“Rabbi Shach zt”l stood up when his uniformed IDF grandsons entered his yeshiva, yes the war is on two fronts, so man up and defend them both!”
Let me be nice because of your ignorance about Charedim. Even though R’ Schach zt’l’s grandkids were Zionists, he didn’t hold of that way of life. His son became that way against his father’s wishes. What he held was that the Charedim should learn full time and Not go to the army. Ask anybody who was his Talmid. So to reiterate, one front is fought by the Zionists, whether Chilonim or MO. The other front is fought by the Charedim with them learning full time and Not going to the army!
Health, Ben Gurion agreed because there were only 400 of them then.
No, Ben-Gurion agreed because he was sure the Bnei Torah would die out and he was only agreeing to a temporary situation until the zionists converted the frum into chilonim. Once they realized the Bnei Torah weren’t going to disappear, they tried other angles to stop the frum.
Kiryas Yoelite, I hear.
Considering the fact that a good portion of my immediate family were talmidim of Rav Shach I take serious issue with someone trying to tell me what Rav Shach held.
And when you also take into account the numerous public speeches he gave (some of which have actually been translated into English) his veiws are pretty clear on this matter.
Furthermore considering the fact that I have had close reletives killed in terrorist bombings in Isreal I take exception to someone stating Chareidim don’t live in Isreal with risks.
It so happens to be that the cousins of mine that served in Tzahal all returned home safe and sound.
The Chareid cousin who boarded the wrong bus with her children lost one, and the parents live with their woumds.
About Chillul Hashem lets get this straight.
Chillul Hashem is not thousands of young men choosing to live a life of poverty so they can sit and learn Torah instead of taking a different path that could allow them to actually have more then a 3 room apartment.
Chillul Hashem is having a Toeiva parade through the streets of Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh.
Chillul Hashem is public Chillul Shabbos.
Chillul Hashem is forcing men to listen to women sing and create an environement of complete pritzus.
Chillul Hashem is a non-jew coming to the land of the Jews and being told don’t worry over here our Capitol City is as Modern as New York, and has all the benefits of Times Square after dark.
V’Hamevin Yavin.
And if someone does not realize that the world was created for Torah, it exists for Torah, and the essence of Klal Yisroel is Torah and the ones sitting and learning with mesirus nefesh are the ones that are holding up the world in a very real way.
Well thats just too bad.
But not listenting to thos who refuse to undestand the essence of Judaisim is not being Mechallel Shem Shomayim.
It is what’s right.
But listening to Ehud Barak’s version of Judaisim and following his sense of Priorities over the Gedolei Yisroel.
That is doing what’s wrong.
And yes that Chillul Hashem.
Massive Chillul Hashem.
Ben Levi, one aveirah does not justify another. You may not stay in kollel if it means living on treif food or robbing banks no matter which aveiros frei Israelis do!
It is not the essence of Judaism to stay in kollel while getting money through Chillul Shem Shomayim!
Ben Levi, your willful blindness is outrageous! Just as with DM and Shmoel, I have nothing to say anymore. I have said enough.
tahini:
The arrogance of those thinking they are not meant to serve because they protect Yiddishkeit with their learning and observance is breathtaking. There are plenty of soldiers who keep mitzvot and do their army service, or if they wish opt out and do a communal voluntary posting instead.
This has absolutely nothing to do with arrogance and everything to do with halacha. One is not supposed to stop learning Torah to fulfill a mitza she’efshar laasos al yiday acharim, a mitzva that will be done by somebody else. Perhaps you should do a little more research before you start hurling around insults.
Speak to Israeli social workers about child abuse or domestic violence in places like meah shearin and they will tell of you a community that will riot against the police or medical crews, but not stop internal suffering amongst their own weakest and most vulnerable.
Ah; insults, loshon hara/motzei sheim ra, and disparaging generalizations. Sinas chinom at its best.
I cannot understand the concept of those engaged in Torah learning being disengaged from the world around them
Well, let me try to explain it to you. The theory is that one who does nothing except for learn Torah, will by definition be learning more than somebody who is also doing something else. Crazy, I know.
Fear of breaking away with traditions which are in themselves only recent minhagim dominate the charedi rabbonim, who politically are busy using imagined slights against Gadolim to canvass opinion against the State as well as each other.
So bashing the Charaidim in general isn’t enough for you? You feel the need to go disparage their Rabbonim too?
Israel is a young new country and needs all hands on deck to make things work.
That is simply not true. The Israeli Army does not want or need the Charaidim to serve; they have said so themselves.
Right now Satmar are campaining in Israel against the elections, people here in the CR are saying that Satmar are taking nothing from the State. Well who is paying for the policing and security bill for this grand show against the evil zionists?
Actually, they hired private security.
Miriam:
Why is the child of a Haredi more precious than a child of any other Israeli?
Nobody besides you has claimed anything remotely like that.
Learning is very important and so is serving.
True. Now, let’s try to figure out how can get the most of both: If we were to require the Charaidim to serve in the army, it result in less learning and no additional serving (the chillonim would simply have to spend less time enlisted). However, if we do not draft the Charaidim we will end up with more learning, and the same amount of people serving in the army.
mdd:
Kanoi, theconflict was brought by the creation of the Medinah, but so was the flow of cash to the Yeshivos. It is very crooked to accept and use only those aspects of the Medinah that are beneficial.
Again, the Charaidim who refuse to serve in the army at all are the same ones who do not take any government funds. There is no hypocrisy here.
benignuman
However, the Chareidim (other than those in Nachal Hacharedi) are not risking their lives.
Neither are the generals; but without them, the army would be an absolute disaster.
Health:
you don’t have a Frum upbringing, only a MO one.
That’s disgusting.
Mdd,
You keep on insisting that it’s a chillul Hashem, based on a self made definition of chillul Hashem! There are poskim, starting with the Chazon Ish, who have paskened that it is not a chillul Hashem. Can you really blame people for following the Chazon Ish’s psak rather than your twisted definition of chillul Hashem?! (Your definition doesn’t become correct because of bold lettering, by the way.)
For all those who continue to refer to Ben Gurion’s agreement with the Chazon Ish; let’s consider the implications. If you wish to go by the letter of the agreement at the time, it was an exemption from service – it didn’t include the more than $14,000 US per year that kollel learners are currently receiving from the government. So perhaps you are right, and the exemption should be extended. And perhaps the letter of the agreement should be respected, and the current subsidies eliminated. University students who receive similar stipends made their own arrangements.
Let’s also consider the circumstances. Do you also want to go back to the rationing and privation of the 1949-1955 era in Israel? And let’s look at what was not in the agreement, but was done anyways. Just one example – several prominent Chareidi and Chareidi oriented Yeshivos benefited from land grants given by the government. I can think of one particular example, on the Kotel Plaza, that was given by the government to the yeshiva for $1. I know this because of my personal involvement with the organization, and its major donors. Another Chareidi Yeshiva land plot in the Old City was granted outright.
Of course, Chalilo V’chos that anyone should show some hakoras hatov for that, or for the social responsibility it represents which is an evolving rather than static relationship.
What gave you the idea that the land was the governments in the first place? It wasn’t. Depsite their declaring it theirs.
OK sushee. Whatever you say. I guess no representatives of shevet Yehuda and shevet Binyomin came forward to sign it over.
The reason there is no draft in the US is not what you think, this is the reason
In the 60’s there was massive anti-war protests in the US, Nixon felt most of the protests was not really anti-war or anti-american, but really anti-draft. Middle Class young people were being forced to go to a war they did not want to go to and would protest.
By making the army all volunteer, only those who really wanted to serve would serve. People generally only protest when it affects them directly . They might burn their own draft card and risk getting arrested, but they are less likely to risk protesting and getting arrested for someone else.
It took about 4 years until Nixon was able to get rid of the draft
“All combat soldiers are volunteers.”
Akuperma, if that is true, then I change my position. In that case I would only ask that Chareidim get a few months of basic training so they could be called upon in case of extreme emergency (i.e. all out war).
Kanoi, I understand that not all those serving in the IDF are risking their lives (although nobody starts as a general). However if Akuperma is wrong, there is no segment of the population that is spared their children being put in harms way other than the Chareidim. So while individual Mizrachi boys might be spared, their brothers are not.
I remember when R’Elyashiv gave his haskomoh to the Tal Law. His house was stoned by “Chareidim.” That was a Chillul Hashem. Chillul Hashem is a concept that speaks to how outsiders see Torah and Yidishkeit. Show me a public statement (i.e. one that can be confirmed) by any Torah outsider praising the Chareidi refusal to serve in the IDF, and I will rethink whether or not it is a Chillul Hashem.
Finally, the Religious Zionists and the Modern Orthodox have Gedolim too. The fact that you disagree with them doesn’t diminish them as talmidei chachimim and tzaddikim. People are tossing around terms like “Gedolei Yisroel” and “Daas Torah” but cutting out half of the world of Torah.
Show me a public statement (i.e. one that can be confirmed) by any Torah outsider praising the Chareidi refusal to serve in the IDF, and I will rethink whether or not it is a Chillul Hashem.
What’s a “Torah outsider”? The “Torah insiders” (i.e. Gedolim) have clearly said it is a Kiddush Hashem to remain in Yeshiva full-time and not serve in the army. What do you want from us? We are following our Gedolim! Do you really expect us to stop listening to the Gedolim because you disagree with them?!?
Leyzer -“There is a very obvious, simple difference which you appear to have missed. Your Chareidi cousins did not willingly/intentionally put themselves into harm’s way, whereas your Tzahal cousins did. The consequences are irrelevant. What we are discussing here is who makes the intentional decision to contribute to the country BiMesirus Nefesh Mamash and who doesn’t.”
Now the truth comes out. You definitely have an agenda, not just wanting to know “why”!
You don’t think Ben-Gurion realized this when he agreed to his agreement that Charedim wouldn’t have to serve in the army?!?!
How come you and all the other Zionists don’t appreciate that there wouldn’t Be a “State of Israel”, if it weren’t for the Charedim? They would have been wiped out by the arabs a long time ago.
yichusdik -“For all those who continue to refer to Ben Gurion’s agreement with the Chazon Ish; let’s consider the implications. If you wish to go by the letter of the agreement at the time, it was an exemption from service – it didn’t include the more than $14,000 US per year that kollel learners are currently receiving from the government. So perhaps you are right, and the exemption should be extended. And perhaps the letter of the agreement should be respected, and the current subsidies eliminated. University students who receive similar stipends made their own arrangements.”
You never fail to disappoint me with your twisting of the truth!
You make it sound as the Kollel guys are getting paid for Not going to the army. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the money they get from the Israeli gov. is welfare money. Any Israeli can get this money. And if the Israelis don’t like the Charedim taking welfare, let them exempt the Charedim from going to the army, even if they aren’t in Kollel, so they could go out to work!
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