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I have seen several comments around the CR that seemed dismissive of chumros, and those that keep them. Therefore, I have decided to post my thoughts on the matter, and see what everybody else’s are.
The way I see it, there are two different types of chumros.
The first type of chumrah is mentioned in the previous week’s perek of Pirkei Avos (1,1): “haim umroo… asoo siyug la’Torah” “they (the Anshei Knesses Hagadola) said… make a fence for the Torah”. In other words, we should not do things that are halachicly muttar if it may bring us to doing things that are ussar.
The second, more common type of chumrah is also mentioned in the previous week’s perek (1,16): “Raban Gamliel omer… histallake min ha’sufaik” – “Raban Gamliel says… remove yourself from uncertainty”. The pashut pshat in these words in that in a case where you unsure of what the halacha is, be machmir and ‘avoid the doubt’.
This concept is the source of most of the chumros that are practiced today. In a case where different poskim come out with different halachic conclusions, follow the most machmir one because “better safe then sorry” when it comes to doing mitzvos/aveiros. After all, we’re talking about our eternal portion of gan eden here, why take chances?
You’ll notice that both these types of chumros are 1) suggested in Pirkei Avos, and 2) show a healthy amount of yiras shomayim and yiras chait. Therefore, I think chumros are a great, beautiful thing, and I am curious why some seem to view them in such a negative light.
The problem is not with chumrot themselves. The problem is that people either decide that chumrot are stam halacha (which they are NOT), or that anyone who is not holding by chumrot are not doing things properly. Unfortunately, people seem to have lost knowing the difference between chumrot and normative halacha.
I have another question if ones rav tells him he may do something that most, or even just some big gedilim say not to do. and the person dose it .If when the person goes to heaven after 120 and they say his rabbi is wrong is it considered that the person did the rite thing and he goes scot free or should he have been more careful
Are you talking about chumros for individuals to keep, or about stricter standards to be imposed upon the community?
The down side of chumros is that they can drive many away from keeping Torah and Mitzvos.
Further chumros can create divisions within the larger Jewish community.
The entire tractate of Demai is about the tension between maintaining standards and maintaining the unity of the Jewish people.
Sometimes chumros can take priority over true biblical concerns. I have heard of those who will resort to gezel (theft) to enforce new stringencies in Tznius.
It is also brought down (I have to check exactly where) that forbidding things which should be allowed is a big no-no.
There is absolutely no merit to being machmir out of doubt. We are supposed to learn the halachah in consultation with a rav. Being machmir out of doubt is a confession of ignorance or even laziness, neither of which are positive traits! With a rav we can determine when to accept the stringent opinions and when to follow the lenient opinions depending on our own character traits and susceptibility to the yetzer hara in that particular area. And we must never insist that others follow our own chumrot; that is the height of arrogance.
Regarding following a rav who paskens a minority opinion, if you have a rav you should always follow him in his leniencies and his stringencies. And if you don’t have a rav you have not fulfilled the positive commandment in Avot. None of us are strong enough to pasken for ourselves in difficult issues. Any good rav will tell you who are the poskim HE relies upon and they will be people whose names you will recognize. In comparison, the talmud has terrible things to say about people who shop around for opinions they like — it is a way to enable the yetzer hara, big time.
Feif Un, that’s why a nazir needs to bring a korban at the end of his nezirus. One is not supposed to deprive himself of the things that Hashem gave us to enjoy. Is that what you’re thinking of?
So much wisdom has been posted in just a few comments. My father O”H used to tell me that the biggest danger in Yiddishkeit is when people make the tafeil the ikkar and the ikkar is made tafeil.
When the ikkar of halacha says something is muttar, and then someone comes along and decides to be machmir on something related to that halacha, something that there is no real halachic reason to do (like not wearing colored shirts), that is making something basically rather trivial into a be-all and end-all, which by itself actually can result in trivializing the very important concept that a Ben Torah should dress with derech eretz. Does it REALLY matter to Hashem if the shirt is white, as long as it is clean, neat, pressed and worn by someone who has the right hashkafa towards learning and mktzvos? (Don’t bother to answer, because if you believe the answer is “Yes,” you have proved my point to me).
Re: being machmir out of doubt – we always must ask a shailah when there is a doubt. I mentioned on another thread quite a while ago, that something happened and I was faced with a halachic issue. I started to decide to simply be machmir on myself about it, but then realized I shoukld still ask my rov the shailah. Surprisingly, his p’sak was nowhere in the chumrah ballpark in which I would have put myself, and when I told him that I would have been way more strict about the inyan, he replied, “Anyone can be machmir. It takes someone who REALLY knows the halacha to tell when it is muttar.”
My father O”H used to tell me that the biggest danger in Yiddishkeit is when people make the tafeil the ikkar and the ikkar is made tafeil.
This deserves to be quoted.
oomis:
When the ikkar of halacha says something is muttar, and then someone comes along and decides to be machmir on something related to that halacha, something that there is no real halachic reason to do (like not wearing colored shirts), that is making something basically rather trivial into a be-all and end-all, which by itself actually can result in trivializing the very important concept that a Ben Torah should dress with derech eretz. Does it REALLY matter to Hashem if the shirt is white, as long as it is clean, neat, pressed and worn by someone who has the right hashkafa towards learning and mktzvos? (Don’t bother to answer, because if you believe the answer is “Yes,” you have proved my point to me).
I’m not sure if wearing a white shirt falls under the category of chumra, I think it is more of a minhag, but either way you make a great point. If someone is so machmir to wear a white shirt that he would rather wear a dirty, wrinkled, stained white shirt then a clean, pressed, blue one then we have a problem. He is clearly missing the point.
No chumra can override a mitzva d’oraysa. This reminds me of the story of a guy in a yeshiva who used to buy his own milk and keep it in the public refrigerator. He would notice every day that other people were drinking from it without his permission so he put a sign saying that this is private and no one can take without permission, people still took. He then added “lo sigzol” to the sign and still people took. Finally he wrote “Chalav Stam” on it and it wasn’t touched.
The problem with chumros is that people tend to forget what their priorities should be. “Chalav stam” should not be more of a deterrent than “lo sigzol”.
Another story, someone was prescribed medicine by a doctor. He had a choice of 2 pills to take. He asked his posek if either of these pills had any Kashrus issues. The posek answered that Pill A is made with pig fat and Pill B is made with Chalav Stam. The person then asked, “so which should I take?”
If you want to keep chumros and they don’t interfere with your keeping actual Halacha (including bein adam l’chaveiro) than all the power to you, but if it does interfere then you are missing the boat.
“I’m not sure if wearing a white shirt falls under the category of chumra, I think it is more of a minhag”
Its neither
ckbshl, haven’t you ever heard of minhag shtus? 😉
The Brisker Rav was known for following many “chumras”. Once his talmidim saw him drinking outside of the Succah on Soccos. They asked him isn’t it a b’feirush inyan to not eat or drink anything even a glass of water outside of the Succah. He answered that that is only a chumra and he doesn’t follow chumras. The things that he does that people think of as chumras he does because there is a real safek. Only in the case of a safek d’oraysa was he very careful to make sure that he was not oveir on any issurim and careful that he did the mitzvos he was mechuyav to do properly. But drinking water outside the Succah is b’feirush in the Mishna that it is allowed. It is only a chumra and therefore he was not makpid to go into the Succah to drink.
Let’s not forget that we re not in Gan Eden because of a chumra. Adom was told by Hashem to not EAT from the tree. When Adom told it over to Chava, he added a chumra, don’t TOUCH the tree. When the snake pushed her against the tree and noyhing happened, he was able to convince her to eat from it
mw13 is 100% correct.
Who makes chumros? Not Yankel Shoemacher. Chumros are set by Chazal, the Rishonim, the Achronim, the Gedolim! Who are we midgets to second guess these great men?
We are specifically told to make gedorim.
(The white shirt thing has nothing to do with this issue. It is simply a uniform for Bnei Torah, as Yidden are supposed to have a uniform.)
Helpful says: The white shirt thing has nothing to do with this issue. It is simply a uniform for Bnei Torah, as Yidden are supposed to have a uniform
But a soldier who appears in a dirty, rumpled uniform can be court-martialed!
And a soldier who wears a uniform that he doesn’t deserve can be jailed!
And a soldier must always be conscious of not being a “disgrace to the uniform.”
little, that’s all true, but has nothing to do with the Brooklyn Bridge.
Wear a white shirt nice and clean. Certainly better, on all counts, then wearing torn jeans.
The problem with chumros is that people tend to forget what their priorities should be. “Chalav stam” should not be more of a deterrent than “lo sigzol”.
That was a better exampler than mine.
Incorrect. That is not a problem with a chumra at all. That is a problem with the person in question.
Additionally, cholov yisroel isn’t a chumro altogether. Cholov yisroel is required per Chazal. Non-CY is a kula.
Perhaps we should have a thread about the problems with kulos.
It is simply a uniform for Bnei Torah, as Yidden are supposed to have a uniform”
Who says so? My son is also a Ben Torah, and he wears nicely pressed, clean colored shirts, striped shirts, plaid shirts, solid color shirts, AND white shirts, with beautiful ties, and ALWAYS looks like a real mensch. He is dressed for Shul or work as one would dress for court, or to meet the President. But not solely in white shirts.
“as Yidden are supposed to have a uniform”
Please cite sources for this requirement.
A uniform requirement is far more than just dressing in a manner that those who see you will know that you are Jewish.
A uniform is very much associated with the military where a rigid structure is needed to be able to conduct war. In an army there is no room for individual creativity.
Even in wartime, not all functions need the uniform. Those building the weapons do not.
The pre-WW2 litvishe yeshivos did not have a uniform. Lakewood when Rav Aaron Kotler was alive did not have the white shirt and black hat uniform.
But now, every boy turning Bar Mitzvah is presumed to be “military academy” material and must wear the full uniform.
If he follows the psak of a rabbi that was wrong, he may escape punishment after 120, but he will still have lost out a lifetime of doing mitzvos on the issues he didn’t do (or did wrongly.)
Josh: The down side of chumros is that they can drive many away from keeping Torah and Mitzvos.
Any proof? Many posts on CR prove the opposite. 60% frum college kids sleeping around!!! Ribono shell olam, are you people trying to reinvent the wheel of Haskala-Reform-Conservatism? It certainly seems so. The first maskilim were 100% frum Jews, you know.
“60% frum college kids sleeping around”
If there were more Touro and YU type options, these kids could have had options with less temptations.
msseeker
Youkeep using that 60% figure. What is your source nd proof.
The first makilim were turned off former;y frum Jews
helpful: i don’t wear a white shirt so is guess i’m not a ben torah in your eyes
“The white shirt thing has nothing to do with this issue. It is simply a uniform for Bnei Torah, as Yidden are supposed to have a uniform.”
Uniform? Is this school?!
Bnei Torah are supposed to dress respectably, and that comes in many forms. Uniformity is an invention of institutions, not of Chazal.
People are different, and so are there dress.
“I don’t see why that should be the case if chumros are used correctly (kept for the right reasons and not imposed upon others).”
The way to know if someone’s personal chumrah is being kept correctly and for the right reason, is if that person is not making a big display of doing his chumrah. If everyone knows about it, then maybe his reason is a gaivehdig one, so that everyone will look at what a tzassik he is (and mind you, this might even be subconscious on his part). Certainly as soon as someone decides other people who do NOT follow the same chumrah are not as frum as he is, he is already in the wrong.
OOmis -It’s funny what you said over from your father. I have been saying for years that in our generation -they make the ikkur toful & the toful ikkur!
“OOmis -It’s funny what you said over from your father. I have been saying for years that in our generation -they make the ikkur toful & the toful ikkur! “
What can I say, GREAT minds with but a single thought…
The sixty percent is based on a study by queens college on Jewish Orthodox youth – living on campus. Rabbi Orlosky quotes it as well in his famed “platonic relationship” tape.
OP,
Rabbi Reisman asked in his navi shiur why does the mishnah berurah bring down in many places hamachmir tavo alav brachah. He answered that if you are machmir in all the cases you are a fool. hamachmir tavo alav brachah means you need to take on some chumras that’s when you get a bracha. you can choose your chumrahs. if you are machmir on everything, you are a fool.
“(go around trying to find the most meikel shitah in everything).”
I need to comment on this, because the sense I get from this comment is that you somehow give off the idea that you believe that to be mekeil is not following the halacha. There is a religious spectrum of halachic observance, but from one end to the other, the observance is kosher and according to Ratzon Hashem. Being mekeil IS following the halacha. If you are mekeil and NOT following the Halacha that Hashem intended, then you are not being mekeil at all, you are being oveir on the halacha. Mekeil does not equal oveir halacha (I cannot say that too often).
So if the halacha demands a minimum action, that action IS the one Hashem commanded us to do, and anything else we choose to do to be more strict, is actually NOT what He required of us. I am not getting into the reasons for being needing to be stricter or not. We all know about gedarim, and protecting the mitzvah, etc. etc. I am specifically trying to emphasize an idea that some people refuse to understand or accept, that being mekeil is not a bad thing. As long as it totally conforms to halacha, a Jew who is mekeil is doing the right thing in Hashem’s eyes. It is only in the eyes of people, that we think being machmir is holier. And I am machmir in many things, for whatever reasons, but I do not think that makes me a better Jew than someone who does not do those same things.
It’s like how I feel about people asking me in the summer if I take early Shabbos or late Shabbos. I always respond, if I took late Shabbos that would make me mechallel Shabbos.
” I was talking about chumros when in doubt what thw halacha is, as I explained earlier in this post to charliehall. “
That was what I thought you were talking about. If Chazal decreed a chumrah, we follow it — unless the Gaonim or Rishonim say otherwise, which has happened very rarely.
Oomis1105, you write so well! You are 100% correct. Chumra is not halacha!
I find very often that those who make the biggest issues on blogs about chumros are the kulah shoppers. They can always find someone who is meikil in a certain issue and thus the machmir or anyone who follows the chumrah is wrong. And this attitude is at least as bad as someone who keeps a chumrah looking down on someone who does not and probably worse since they often will end up being oiver on the halacha. And those kulah shoppers (I am referring to the extreme ones, those who constantly scream about kulahs on the blogs) tend to look for any kulah, even when using a kulah in one instance would be completely contradictory to a kulah they used in another instance. They tend not to have any consistency to their approach to halacha other than if there is some kulah, we will be meikil.
And of course, what determines the greatness of a rov for these kulah shoppers is if the rov is meikil. Denying the truth that very often it takes even greater strength of will to be machmir.
Yes, if you follow a rov (at least if he is not a mechadesh devarim sheloh kehalacho, such as some well known radicals nowadays) and use his kulahs it is appropriate, if you also are machmir when he says it is appropriate. But if all you do is go from meikil to meikil and are not consistent, then it highly unlikely that you are doing anything appropriate.
This is without discussing the “innovators” who do not rely on mesorah at all, their basis for halachic decisions are “feelings” or being politically correct or to try to fit in with the corrupt popular culture.
“go around trying to find the most meikel shitah in everything”
Many of R’ Moshes psakim were the more lenient shitta. There is a story recorded in the Artscroll Biography of R’ moshe how a certain person when told to consult R’ Moshe was told that he didnt want a kula. He was told that R’ Moshe doesnt look for Kulos he looks for the halacha the way he sees it. What you feel is a kula is how he determines the halacha. With that said, it is important for those who are “machmir” or “maikel” in any situation to understand that people have Rabbonim who issue a psokim. It is one thing to pick and choose kulos everytime, it is quite another to follow the psak of your Rav, whatever side of the kula/chumra fence it comes down on.
Personally, I have no problems with “chumros”. the problem i have is with the people who have decided thattheir chumra is binding on all klal yisroel and those who do not abide by the chumra are going against the halacha. Be machmir all you want, just dont impose your chumra on me. Thats the job of my Rav.
One important thing that must be mentioned in this thread that is often overlooked in conversations such as these:
Not following a chumra is not, in and of itself, a kula.
The Wolf
WolfishMusings
“Not following a chumra is not, in and of itself, a kula.”
What is a kula?
What is a kula?
A leniency.
The Wolf
“The white shirt thing has nothing to do with this issue. It is simply a uniform for Bnei Torah, as Yidden are supposed to have a uniform.”
Last I checked, the Uniform for a Ben Torah is Tzitzit and a Kippa (even ask Uncle Moishy and his Mitzva Men!)
WolfishMusings
A leniency
I know that.
Personally, I have no problems with “chumros”. the problem i have is with the people who have decided thattheir chumra is binding on all klal yisroel and those who do not abide by the chumra are going against the halacha.
And look at all the other area of life this can affect: Shidduchim, kids getting into specific schools, eating by neighbors’ homes. Essentially it seems like so many of our “bein adam l’chavero” problems can be linked back to some of the population assuming that others not keeping their chumra are “not as frum”…
The biggest issue regarding chumros is that they are often put onto the masses when they should be applied only to the select few. In other words, the average frum person is not cut out to live a life that is as restricting as a major gadol. However, the current trend is to make it that every frum person must adhere to these chumros or else they are viewed as being not frum.
Anyone who does not realize that people are people and that even frum people do not all fit a certain category in terms of ability or desire regarding strictness of halachic observance is being naive.
there is nothing wrong with chumras but with the people that make them!
im not talking about rabbanim or the like but rather the “cool frafrumpta yeshivish”guy
first of all they think that any body who doesnt have this chumra is not frum,charadi,yeshivish etc….
secondly, they think that is the halacha and there is no other opinion in the world not like it
this being said, this causes strife and hatred in the world between fellow jews
some times a person has to be mivatel on his chumra for either sholom bayis, neighbors etc….
i have a rebbi who keeps certain chumras but doesnt impose them even on his spouse
he says “if im crazy what does that have to do with her”
i think this should be the attitude of all chumra makers then the world would be a better place
The real problem is with the kula-pushers who not only out of jealousy despise those are at a higher madreiga in keeping mitzvos, but try to drag them down with non-existent kulos. And anyone who dares not kowtow to these anti-chumra incipient demands, they denounce in the most vile terms.
Also to comment on #1
I don’t think that being ‘machmir’ like a da’as yachid amongst the rishonim or acharonim always fits one of the two categories you set forth. However, I see many yeshiva guys following what used to be rejected shittos amongst the classic seforim merely to be “safe” according to every possible position. This is very different from removing doubt when there is a safek – here there is an accepted psak that one is choosing to transcend.
Lastly, another two things to consider:
1) Every chumra has a counter ‘kula’. Meaning – if you advocate only buying certain hashgachos, you might be causing a monetary loss to other hashgachas and their certified foods/stores. If you require that davening should take a longer amount of time in shul, some people who can’t handle it, will just come later or stop coming. If you are more machmir on various hilchos ishus/niddah, you are decreasing amount of onah.
2) You always have to question what is the impetus for wanting to be machmir? Is it truly lishmah or is it rooted in ba’al gaivah…?
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