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Zalman: It’s obvious that you have not bothered to read my previous postings or the postings of others which show that Chazal and Rabbonim of different stripes – Chassidik; Misnagdik; Sefardik – and Jewish leaders of great stature, from Moshe Rabeinu until the present time, refute your suppositions regarding geyrim and the kavode due to their families. So lighten up and smile with Hashem’s wonderful people.
cherrybim, You may have legitimate sources for your position, but what Zalman said certainly has a factual basis in poiskim (even if you know of a different psak.)
Joseph: “but what Zalman said certainly has a factual basis in poiskim”
What Poskim? If you want an exercise in Lamdus, then do the daf.
Or if you want to know what Rabbonim and Poskim do l’maise (in actuality), then you have to see how they “fir zich”, how they determine and advise geyrim with regard to relationships with their families. What’s so difficult, it’s not brain surgery. In fact, when you have a Rav (and everone should), it’s quite easy. This is what Zalman and company does not want to accept.
cherrybim, l’maise the a shtarke Ger will go the full length of the law and minimize all contact with his goyish ex-family. A shvache Ger may do so to a lesser extent. And a poisek may not sanction him for that.
What do you mean by “shtarke Ger” and “shvache Ger”? Is that like being a little pregnant?
Chazal knew the Ger and knew human psychology. Chazal admonishes us not to bring up the Ger’s past to him because the Ger doesn’t forget those who raised him, and those to whom he owes Hakaras Hatov to, and those he loves, and he doesn’t break ties. Chazal doesn’t expect the Ger to be more than a human being.
Joseph, a “shtarke Ger” will want to do the ratzon Hashem. And maybe in his case the ratzon Hashem is to stay civil and friendly with the family, especially if the Rav encourages and advises this. Don’t forget, chillul Hashem is one of the most severe aveiros.
In any case, who ever heard of a ger who is not “shtarke???” If he was not shtark he would not have made it to this point!
I agree with cherrybim on this.
cherrybim, The Torah makes quite clear (aside from the issue of Geirim) that we Yidden must keep our distance from the goyim. This point seems to give you heartburn and indigestion. I suggest you re-evaluate your priorities.
Sorry guys, it was tongue-in-cheek, non-literal pun intended, but came across incorrectly.
UJM: “Bla, Bla, Bla, Bla”… A bee g’ret
As was just posted on the “Davening with Crocs” blog: You continue to show your amaratzus. Get a Rebbe and get it right
ujm: “The Torah makes quite clear (aside from the issue of Geirim) that we Yidden must keep our distance from the goyim”
agreed! but just as we have special mitzvos in how we relate to geirim (despite the fact that they are full-fledged Jews), perhaps one can argue that geirim have special circumstances in regards to their non jewish blood relatives!
In any case i fail to understand how this constant back and forth is going on so long! Each ger should seek daas Torah, finished! Why is it that that is the bottom line in every thread, but in this one just doesnt seem to do the trick??
Lets go back to the original posters point, if you want to talk about anything.
Who else noticed that anytime cherrybim disagrees with someone he calls them amaratzus or the like?
You can quote a b’feirush posek proving your point against cherrybim, but if it doesn’t live up to cherrybim’s modern ideals, its “amaratzus”!
Will Hill,do you have a b’feirush posek for that statement?
By the way, i don’t say it every time and I’m anything but modern. I just abhor amaratzus from amaratzim.
In Parshas Yisro, perek 18 and pasuk 5 & 6 ( I don’t have Hebrew font ), the Torah describes Moshe Rabeinu’s wife’s father as his father-in-law. In addition, pasuk 7 describes how Moshe went out to meet Yisro to honor him.
Since Yisro was not Jewish ( he is described in the first pasuk of the perek as the priest of Midian ), this would appear to support Think Big’s position that there obviously are occasions when a link can be maintained between a ger and their relatives
lesschumras, I’ve brought that up in almost every post, but the “shaina yidden” like to ignore that most important point. Thanks.
lesschumras: Thanks for bringin a possuk to support my “possition”. My position is and has always been that one must have a guidance of a Rav in all of these things. Many things are “assur” except when they are not, as decided by the Rabbinic leaders who safegaurd the Torah.
“Torah lo bashamayim He”, and therefor we down here on earth must follow our gedolim and not rely on ourselves.
CHERRYBIM, alleviate your amaratzus I’ll re-point to you the Mishna Berura that requires a JACKET during davening that has been mentioned previously on this thread:
Shulchan Orach chaim Hilchos Tefiloh, siman 91, sk 12 (megulah) [sk 4, mb 12 ?]
Mishnah Berurah 8:4, citing the Ba”ch, requires two head coverings
cherrybim, “preys” on whom? His ex-son, the convert? If he preys on Jews I would tend to think anyone should keep away from him, not just his ex-son. In fact, preying on Jews would be one of the worries regarding a coverts EX-parents.
TO UJM- This was said with you in mind (Tzu g’past:
Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt
cherryboy, For you unfortunately all doubt has long been removed regarding your tipshish.
guys, enough. You are embarrassing yourself. (it is not important who started it, but who ends it.)
CHERRYBIM..ISNT THAT THE PICTURE POISEK?
i dont even know what this discussion is about but
“Since Yisro was not Jewish ( he is described in the first pasuk of the perek as the priest of Midian ), this would appear to support Think Big’s position that there obviously are occasions when a link can be maintained between a ger and their relatives”
this is before Matan Torah, and therefore no proof at all
feivel, brace yourself for the 21st centurists new agers onslaught.
Geirim no longer necessarily break all ties with their former family members, just as people generally no longer sit shiva when their child marries a non-Jew G-d forbid.
I feel for the ger or geyores who posted originally, ebcause it would be naive to think that this is not a problem for them. But, people have a right to feel that a shidduch might be too fraught with problems for them to want to take on those problems. I married a baal teshuvah and he is a tzaddik and a real mensch in every way. But there were sholom bayis issues when his family did not accept that we would not attend the interfaith marriage of his niece, and other issues along the way. My in-laws were outstanding baalei chessed, my husband gets those middos from them. We learned to deal with the various problems that arose. But how do you deal with in-laws who truly believe their precious daughter is going to Gehenom for becoming a Jew and denouncing their “saviour?” It is not a glatt issue, and I blame no one for not wanting to take on this challenge. Perhaps the solution is for geirim to seek out other geirim. I don’t know. I do have several friends who are geirei tzedek,and I truly do not think of them as “formerly goyim.” They are simply my good friends.
There are often problems with those who used to be Christians; they often have great difficulty leaving the Christian mindset behind them. They just keep their religious experience in a kind of church-like, formal and cold attitude. This is definitely a problem.
I know quite a few people who were megayer, and I assure you, you can see the difference between those who used to be atheists and those who used to be christians within a second.
i THINK this is simple
there is no Mitzvah here of Kibud Av v Em
what there is though is an obligation of Hakores Hatov
there may be other psychological issues as well
that has to balanced against issues of havdallah
so clearly every case needs specific guidance as to the Halachah and proper behavior, not only each case, but many situations in any individual case will need separate decisions by a competent Rav.
Halavai we all become Balei T’shuva and Halavai we all come down from the high frum pedestals we put ourselves on.
Frum from birth Jews! Our Midos and Yiras Shamayim is in the toilet; how dare we denigrate and second guess Geirei Tzedek.
Naturally, we frum from birth Jews have no psychological problems with our frumkeit; only the pitied Geyrim and Balei T’shuva do. Yeah, right.
Why should we make distinctions between BTs, FFBs, and Geyrim? If I would look around at my high school class, I was unable to tell who were the children of BTs or FFBs or Geyrim! Actually, some of the nicest children were not the children of FFBs! This goes the same for those who were not from yichus…A teacher I know told me that within a few weeks of the new school year at a new school, she was able to tell which students were from “yichus” and which ones were not. Those from yichus (majority- there were exeptions to this rule…on both ends) were more chutzpadik, snobbier, ruder… to their teacher and in general then those who were not… This could be because they felt that they were able to get away with everything because of their yichus… and who daddy and mommy were…
SomeoneLikeYou: First of all i wish you Hatzlacha Merubah in finding
your Bashert quickly & easily.
Our Community Has to stop worrying about what the neighbors will say
What will people thing & Do what is right according to the Torah.
People are fearful of Geirim because they have to check thoroughly
if they were M’geiyer Kda’as V’din!!
When my mother got remarried recently, she married a ger (who converted about 40 years ago). They are very happy together! FYI – he does say kaddish for his father per his rabbinic authority. He also goes to visit his mother once a year (she lives far away). My mother goes along and treats her like family too.
I may be wrong, but some of the people shouting about not socializing with non-Jews may have zero practical experience with gerim in their family or non-Jews marrying into their family.
Life is complicated, but that is no reason to get rid of your relatives!! My cousin married a (wonderful and respecetful) non-Jewish man. They were “out of the family” for many years but have since come back. He converted around 40 (orthodox conversion, full Bris) and one of his sons is on the cusp of orthodox and moving closer all the time.
Be careful who you ostracize, as you might turn more people off the derech.
SJS: “…or non-Jews marrying into their family.”
If a non-Jew CHAS V’SHALOM marrier into your family, you immediately break off the relationship with the relative who married into the family. (Offhand, I forget if you sit shiva for him as well.)
the relative who married the goy, is rather what I intended to type. (The goy him/herself you certainly have no relationship with.)
Marrying a non-Jew is one of the most cardinal sins a Jew can commit.
Joseph, they were out of my family for years (this is one generation above me, so their kids are my second cousins). But bringing them back into the family is bringing at least one of their children towards being orthodox.
I dont condone her way choice in life, but she made it. There is no reason to cut off her children (and without being in contact with her, I would have no contact with her kids) who are 100% Jewish.
Joseph, I was told directly by one of today’s Gedolei Hador who is the son of the Godol Hador of a previous generation that they had a SJS situation in their family and the wife of the Godol Hador continued to have contact with the intermarried person(child) and to have the person over in her home as well.
I am deliberately being vague as you can understand.
We are not living in the same times as when certain gezeiros were initiated by chazal for deterrent purposes.
So before anyone any one makes a judgment call of this nature, it is a good idea to first speak to their Rav or Poseik.
BS”D
(Offhand, I forget if you sit shiva for him as well.)
I looked into this once and every answer I got indicated that sitting shiva for a relative who intermarries is a folk practice with no basis in halacha. I’d be interested in knowing if that is indeed correct.
What I wonder is if you sit shiva for such a relative when he is gone. I would think the answer is yes.
Nobody has the authority to pasken anonomously for anyone else. All shayles should be directed to your Rav.
Here is some information I located regarding intermarriage:
The Mishnah says [Sanhedrin 81b] that the punishment for a Jewish man who has relations with a gentile woman is that zealots can kill the man. Rambam adds [Hilchos Malachim 9:7] that any gentile woman who purposely has relations with a Jewish man should be put to death. In addition to the punishment that a zealot can do to a man who has relations with a non-Jewess, a man who has relations with such a woman is subject to flogging from Beis Din because there are four different prohibitions upon such a woman. If the conditions are not able to meet the criteria needed for such a sinner to be flogged, the sinner would be punished by HaShem Himself with kares as it says [Malachi 2:11] [one who worships] .
The prohibition of intermarriage is so stringent that the Gemora equates intermarriage with idolatry [Sanhedrin 82a]
SJSinNYC – I completely agree with you. Just remember, most of the members here have NO experience with any of this.
Until they have a sibling, child, or cousin, marry a non Jew, or if they were the one’s converting into Judaism, they have no clue as to how they will react in such a situation. Most gerim I know DO have a relationship with their family, and most people with family members who marry non Jewish, DO have a relationship with them. Anyone who has not been there, is speaking out of ignorance.
Ignore their insolent, unknowledgeable, inexperienced, immature comments. They only want to get a rise out of you, don’t give them the satisfaction. They are children, who just don’t know any better.
The world is not in BLACK & WHITE, if it were, they would not not be online, now would they?
As far as sitting shiva for a Jew who married a goy, there may be a difference if its a Jewish woman C’V marrying a gentile man, or a Jewish man C’V marrying a gentile woman (which seems is worse.)
If someone married out, their siblings may still be willing to learn a little about Judaism… do not give up on the rest of the family because you never know who will be frum (or nearly frum) one day. We should never give up on non frum relatives, even though they might have been exposed to frumkeit for a while, as you can never tell what will bring someone close to Hakadosh Baruch Hu.
SomeoneLikeYou: Sorry! (track back well over two years….) MAZEL TOV!!! 🙂
Very happy to hear, still wish loads of Hatzlacha!
However my previous answer does adresses this point.
We dont have to check a BT (who came from a religious family)
if he is a real jew, however a Geir we do!
Joseph, it’s very obvious that you don’t have a Rav to speak to, or else you would, instead of always paskining on your own in matters that are way above you, no matter how well versed in learning.
cherrybim, the only thing that is obvious is that you haven’t a clue of what you speak. What I wrote aren’t my own svoros. My apologies if the stringencies of halacha offend you.
cherry: Which unknown Godol Hador that for obvious reasons you can’t name did you personally witness this time backing up your point?
It seems every time your out of arguments you remember some tzaddik, who of course you can’t name, that you just happened personally be at when it came up (but of course you can’t tell us the specifics about).
Joseph: You love to ignore and skirt around factual points of YWN postings. It’s because you don’t have the halachic l’maise piske din to back you up and as a result you mislead the masses.
What do you know about stringencies of halacha? Anyone can read. But that’s not called learning.
Again, for all the YNW posters, do you have a Rav and do you consult with your Rav on regular bases?
Lessmoderorthodox: Havn’t you ever heard of something called: PRIVACY.
You made some pretty sweeping accusatory statements. If you can, provide some specific instances for me to address.
cherrybim, Yes, I in fact do. And yes, I in fact ask.
Now please don’t skirt the issue and address the Gemorah and Rambam I quoted. (Which goes hand-in-hand from what I’ve been told by a Rav on this type of situation. And with what the Rabbonim over the centuries [including contemporary] have instituted.)
This is at least the second time you defended your argument claiming you were personally at hand at a “godol hador” who you can’t identify that coincidentally backed up your position. Unlike last time, this time you say it was a godol hador ben godol hador. Who will it be (an unnamed godol hador ben godol hador ben godol hador?) the next time your argument fails on the halachic merits?
OK Joseph, put your money where your mouth is.
What is the name of your Rav?
He is a good man.
We will contact him and see if it’s as cut and dry as you claim, or if he agrees that there is alot of room for being flexable.
When it comes to p’sak din, a Rav must hear both parties before issuing a decision.
Also, he will be informed as to the name of the Gadol I am referring to.
I am relieved though that you’re saying you have a Rav; which unfortunately is not the case with many Yidden after leaving the Yeshiva world.
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