Whats with the off-the-derech teens?!?!

I can’t know what was on Fetter Shmelka’s mind, but what I hope he meant (and I would agree, but not phrased the same way) is women who, by choice, turn their back on the needs of their children (so they can shop, go to tzedoko parties, pursue a carrear, even though $ is not the issue), they (and their partner husbands) have done their kids a huge dis-service.

WADR, there is a BIG difference between “a huge dis-service” and a “crime against humanity.” People generally don’t get executed for the former.

The Wolf

Many of the kids are just in desperate need for attention others see thier friends getting all the attention when they are off so they deciede to follow them

Ofcourse-

Not a correct comparison. More like all cases of plants drying out are from a lack of water.

1st Timer: Your idea makes a lot of sense.

I heard from Rabbi Sapierman an interesting mashal regarding this issue. He says that when a teacher tests his students on say, grammar, and a kid asks for help with the spelling of a word, the teacher’ll help him out. However, if it’s a spelling test, the teacher certainly won’t help him out with the spelling.

In our time, Emuna is our great nisayon. Therefore, there is such a great “hester Panim”, and unclarity in this area. It is a very tough test which takes work and energy to pass.

observanteen makes a very good point (based on her personal experience.) Many people go OTD because they have bad influences and bad friends.

Parent’s need to control who their children are friends with, and not allow bad influences.

There are many different reasons why people go off. I had a class on it at Touro La, and we discussed the different reasons.

One of them is being influenced by others like peers.

Another one is the home environment Not being enjoyable and so they don’t see the beauty in their heritage and they look for something different. To fix this, we should be sure to add some warmth and joy to the environment.

There’s also those that feel like their questions aren’t being answered and so they feel intellectually frustrated. For this, we should take the time to talk to them and find information to help them.

Some individuals go to college and find out things that go against what they learned. If they don’t have a strong foundation, this can hurt them. One of my classmates suggested that before this person goes to college, they should be told beforehand what they might encounter, for example, “They believe in evolution where…..but we don’t because…..”

There are also teens that get turned off when they see a bad example of someone who should know better, and yet acts poorly. Obviously, we all make mistakes, but it still gives them a negative impression, which is why we need to be careful with middos and behavior.

Hope this helps 🙂

Feter Shmelka – “The OTD crisis is directly attributable to the two-income family that takes the Mother out of the home and away from the family.”

While a lot of people agree with this type of thinking, I don’t know why this has anything to do with OTD kids. There is a science called statistics, were a person has a hypothesis and then tests out their hypothesis with a study to see if it’s true. You have a hypothesis, but because you want to be right, you just say your right without any proof. I haven’t done any studies, but just from my family alone I know your hypothesis isn’t true. I come from a family were both parents were working parents and none of the kids are OTD, but I have a cousin whose mother never ever worked a job and he is OTD! I like the theory of abuse and actually there are a lot of professionals who agree to this hypothesis.

Health, I like the theory of abuse and actually there are a lot of professionals who agree to this hypothesis.

Wo, are we in BIG trouble as a community!

With growing numbers of OTD kids and “orthoprax” kids/adults who are essentially OTD as well (percentage of cases per age group is frightening and increasing), if your supposition is true, and abuse is the chief cause of going OTD, we have to quickly evaluate and reeducate all our children before they become parents and inflict the same damage on their children. They say abuse is a continuous pattern in families. If there’s that much abuse going on in our community (youre saying that every OTD case is a direct result of and therefore goes hand in hand with abusive parenting or Chinuch), we as a community need very serious problem solving in all areas. Its an emergency! How can anyone be proud to be part of a community with regularly increasing cases of abuse/OTD? It might not be me or you, but its our relatives, friends and neighbors, is it not?

Whatever bothers you more, the OTD statistics or the abuse statistics-which you claim are one and the same, it’s stemming from our community and we’d better do something about it really quickly!

“WADR, there is a BIG difference “

Like I said in a different thread, the CR, and certain CR members in particular, have taught me how to state things so the point gets across clearly without stomping on anyones toes. Can’t know for sure what Fetter meant, but most likely, it was just a figure of speech

Observantteen –

You, and the kids like like you(both back from the brink and those still fighting their way back) are the reason I take such a stand against labeling.

Its not fair, and it undermines the hard work that people have put in to get to the point they’re at now.

Keep it up!

(At the risk of sounding like a defender), There are those who would argue that creating conditions that will produce kids who will not be able to abide by the rules that the society in which they are expected to live in, is indeed genocide. Sort of like the way intermarraige is viewed as a threat to our existence. No one is getting shot, but it does pose a real threat to who we are.

Its not to say that all families with an absentee parent produce problem kids, but it should make one stop and think about the consequences that bad parenting choices (the willful ones)usually bring as a result

aries: One of the teens posted above. She said it was from being influenced by a bad friend. As parents, we need to make sure we know who our children’s friends are, and keep the bad influences away.

Exactly MDG. So having a bad friend can, and in her case almost did, cause one to go OTD. Perhaps it is the largest reason in fact.

I think I have one valuable piece of advice for role models such as Mechanchim (not really hypochrisy related though, unless we consider embarassing a student hypochrisy, so maybe it is after all):

Never ever call a child an Apikores for asking a question about Emunah, etc. as mentioned by R’ Pinchas Young so eloquently! It will not yield good results E V E R!

bpt: Thank you.

aries: I agree. Hypocracy IS very often the reason to go OTD.

Itche: She is NOT going off because of her brilliance. She has PLENTY of space to “move”. (The library is still open). She KNOWS all the answers to Yiddishkeit. But the example of Yiddishkeit she’s seen by her parents is not the emes. They’re hypocrites and she views Yiddishkeit like that. AND, as I already mentioned before, she is emotionally sick. AND her “mentor” is as messed up as her who makes matters worse. (BTW, in spite of her brilliance she has zero common sense.)

I’ve no doubt your friend didn’t go OTD because he’s bright. How many frum bright people do you know? (Not to mention the previous gedolim like the Rambam etc.)

I think observanteens friend would have been turned off to yiddishkeit even if she was not abused by her parents and was emotionally stable. She actually said so herself when stating she saw hypocrytical behavior on the part of her parents. One need not be an einstein to spot a hypocrite.

I do think that “bad influences” are only legitimate threats if the one exposed has a poor foundation. Someone with a good foundation won’t feel threatened by the perceived peer pressure. The problem is, the peer pressure is enticing because there is the niggling doubt that perhaps those friends are not wrong. If a teen has no place to go with those little doubts he or she might decide to test out the water by figuratively sticking in a couple of toes first to try and get the answer on their own. Once that happens, all bets are off. As good an any yeshiva or bais yackov might be, how many of those students will admit to feeling comfortable approaching a rebbe or morah and asking straight out, how do I know the galach down the block is wrong when he asserts xyz? How many can actually answer that question if approached by the galach for an explanation why he was wrong?

apushatayid,

I think we’ve all seen hypocrisy, and yet most of us have b”H stayed on the D. I don’t think there’s a simple, one-size-fits-all answer to this troubling issue.

Also, I don’t think many of our youth with emunah issues are enticed by the galach. I think kefirah is a much bigger issue.

how can anyone think that there is one reason for otd kids. as many people as there are there are different reasons for each. that beingsaid ,it is important for schools, parents and society to deal with children who have learning disabilities and help them feel that they are valued and valuable members of society. if society demands something of you that you are incapable of then you will leave that society and find another society where you don’t feel so bad about yourself.

Another issue is abuse. children who have been abused often leave the fold if the abuser was/is frum and wasn’t ostracised. who knows what these kids went through or still go through. sometimes it’s parents or close relatives who are the abusers.

May Hashem help all of these children return to the Derech, and may all of Klal Yisrael merit to see the Geula , b’karov.

ItcheSrulik: Did he go off BECAUSE of his brilliance? (I’m sure there’s a LOT more space in his current challenging and intellectual job to “move”;))

Brilliant minds must be nurtured and valued, unfortunately in yeshiva if the brilliance is not in kodesh, it is often ignored and becomes dull; until the child will find a new environment outside of yeshiva where it is once again encouraged.

Agudah has Daas Torah, under the direction of the Moetzei Gedolei HaTorah.

And it is Rabbi Zweibel. Where do you get the nerve to call him like that?

its so sad…. the world is such a dark cold place for these kids. it hurts my heart when i see them…..

I recently listened to a shiur on Torahanytime by Rabbi Bentzion Shafier “Teaching Yirat Shamayim”. He says our Chinuch system is “building castles on sand”. We’re focusing on how to be frum to the letter (Halacha) and not why we have to be frum and what our goals in life should be, how it enriches our lives and the Gadlus of Hashem and belief in Hashem.

He says the typical good Yeshiva student when asked if they had a choice of being a Goy in public school, free to do as they please, or a Yid in the Yeshivah system, with many rules, hesitates, and worse, often answers honestly, the former. This is after many years of school.

We’re in denial about the true love of Yiddishkeit among our “good” youth. He says he gets asked regularly by “good” kids and “good” young adults (not with emotional problems or histories) “Do we really have to follow all the Mitzvos?” “How do we know?” “Why?” He feels these questions should have been answered early on in school and reviewed.

He says the basic questions that are answered which a Baal Teshuva hears in his first Kiruv class, arent touched on in twelve years of school. Then we wonder why are youth walks around clueless and aimless, and doing things by rote (I add, sometimes only publicly, unfortunately, as with the Orthoprax). Rabbi Rietti has spoken similarly, giving over necessary facts and figures that crystallize the validity of the Torah (a can of worms, an unwanted topic in many frum schools), that twelve years of school sadly never focused on.

We assume that our children understand the purpose of Jews, the validity of the Torah, and those in Chinuch gloss over it, and focus on the minutae of how to be frum and not the feelings behind it.

Health, your post should be in the topic of “chumras”

My post mainly adresses the problem that we have amongst us, MANY 12 years plus Yeshivah educated kids, who are cold, clueless and blase about Yiddishkeit, some nevertheless observing Mitzvos, some not, never mind Chumras. This is not according to me, it’s according to the well known speakers who are trying to be Mekarev them.

I really don’t have patience to read the whole thread but I just want to point out one thing. (someone might have said this though)

People tend to pity the parents and families of these children and think of the children as horrible. Being that I was at risk myself and b”h returned, I want to say that the pain is excrutiating *spelling lol* for those who are in it. Every time I would do something I knew was wrong but felt that I needed to do it I would just cry and cry after. I knew Hashem was there but I just was angry. And yes, the smartest do go off. People go through intense hardships that you just may not even believe but I can’t say always but definitely most of the OTD kids had some trouble in school or at home. Many times it has to do with parents and then the parents are the ones who are pitied when they’re the ones at fault-NOT always the case thought.