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Of all the things to stake your flag on. Why kitniyos? What is so hard, or bigoted, or nonegalitarian about not eating rice for a week?
Kitnios is apolitical.
I have wondered this for a while. I think it’s part of the anti-anti-Sefardi thing.
The left is always finding one issue or another to attack Judaism on.
Could someone please elaborate?
no kitniyos=more meat consumption=more animals killed
A lot of more liberal Conservadox-ish Jews want to get rid of the Minhag of Kitniyos. It’s really weird, honestly.
LWers are often against minhagim that were established due to factors that are (at least in their opinion) no longer relevant today. RWers are usually far more hesitant to discard customs that have been in place for a thousand years.
Sefardim are from the Left? Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef z’tz’l would have been surprised.
Because their gameplan is to attack Judaism bit-by-bit. Always giving good “halakhic” reasonings. Same game plan as the early Reform. Always start with halachic reasoning.
The Sefardim and Ashkenazim that I know are in complete agreement about kitniyos: that Ashkenazim can’t have it, and that Sefardim can. I have no idea what charliehall is talking about.
From discussions, in Israel, of people that I’ve heard about the subject. The Ashkenazim in favor of eating kitniyos is because they feel that it’s time to move past those takanas of certain segments of the population, to minimize division among the people and create more uniformity in Halacha and to end the Golus mentality in general.
It would take the Gedolim to change it for most of us to accept eating Kitniyos, but it really has nothing to do with political philosophy or any intent to cause harm, quite the contrary.
I have not seen this being an issue in Chutz La’Aretz. In Israel, it’s a little more complicated and much harder to shop for Pesach, though it is improving.
mw13: Not to get into another discussion that will be twisted into something else, but the Kitniyos prohibition is about 800 years old, not thousands. This doesn’t change the fact that we don’t use it.
LWers are often against minhagim that were established due to factors that are (at least in their opinion) no longer relevant today.
That’s the point – that those factors are no longer relevant today. I grew up eating peanuts on Pesach, and I clearly remember my Mom z”l using peanut oil. You cannot convince me that some time between the late 60s/early 70s until today that peanuts magically became kitniyot.
they didnt you made a mistake
“the Kitniyos prohibition is about 800 years old,”
Only part of it. The prohibition on corn (maize) cannot be more than 500 years old, and as noted in the quote below, and the prohibition on peanuts cannot be more than a few decades old. Rav Moshe z’tz’l, who died in 1984, said that peanuts were not kitniyot. Some are now trying to asur quinoa.
” You cannot convince me that some time between the late 60s/early 70s until today that peanuts magically became kitniyot.”
This is actually proof for the Open Orthodox position that minhagim can and do change.
If peanuts are kitniyos, they were always kitniyos. Nobody’s making up new minhagim. It’s a question of how inclusive the old minhag is – a definitional question, to some degree.
Anyhow, I think charliehall answered the OP’s question.
A gross intentional misrepresentation of OO, if I’ve ever seen one. It’s about as accurate as saying that the reform just feel that minhagim are non binding.
Its more of a problem in Israel where its really hard to buy stuff without buying Kitnyot.
I think a better example would be if you moved to a new community you were supposed to take the minhagim of that communmity (Prior to WW 1 when people did not move as much) So an Ashkenz who moved to a sephardic country would become a Sephard and Vice Versa. Today Sephardim and Askhenzim are intermixed and its harder.
Quinoa is a better example of Kitniyot going wild. Exactly why some think its kitnyot makes people question the entire minhag. Quinoa is a berry not a legume. It is closer to a blueberry than a pea yet some have delcared it Kitnyot.
ZD, think about quinoa in terms of how it’s eaten. Would it be more likely to replace rice or berries?
That’s part of the shailah – is kitniyos defined by the scientific description of a plant, or its place in the diet.
DY
by that definition, Potatoes should by Kitnyot (and BTW many wanted to do so)
zahavasdad: you’re correct, but Israel is not a clear cut Sephardic country so you in effect go by the community in which you live. Most communities are very mixed, but that’s how we Jews like it, the more confusing, the more to argue over, lol
As to Quinoa, the Star-K tested and researched it and proved that Quinoa is not kitniyos and as you say, the issue has gone wild and taken on a life of it’s own. That’s the times we live in. The Chumrah of the month club run amok.
charliehall: To make the point, it was better using the longest time period on record.
Another point, while we don’t change our minhagim because of it, it seems to me though I can’t say for sure, but in all likelihood the Sephardic minhagim are more correct than ours, since they were closer to the source than we were.
I wish some of the commentators would refer us to the reason WHY kitnyos became part of a minhag not to eat them. Primarily, because, in earlier days, they were stored together with wheat,barley and other grains,hence, it was difficult to separate them .Or, because the flour made from these kitnyos would be confused with real flour. Although today, these reasons may not be applicable, nonetheless, the minhag remains -I don’t eat kitnyos myself. However, “hovu delo losif olov”- let us not add innovative gezeiras ourselves. Potatoes-mercifully- were imported after the actual minhag started and escaped the gezeira. Peanut oil was used extensively and was not considered kitnyos. Peanuts , corn and quinoa should not be part of this gezeira but, as in so many other fields,we have become enamored of chumros. BTW-rice is a totally different category because it is mentioned in the gemoro and some thought it is real chometz,although we don’t pasken that way.
Corn was not even available until the Europeans came to the New World. Its actual name is Maize and somehow the name got mixed up with something else (I forgot off the top of my head)
Wild Rice is another product that should not be Kitnyot. Its a grass, not a rice
ZD,
It’s not harder to get non kitniyos in Israel than in US. However, there are many additional products for pesach that are ktniyos.
The other issue with kitniyos is that they were grown near grain crops and that the individual items would sometimes get mixed up.
That applies to quinoa to some extent as I understand, it does not apply to potatoes.
So as far as quinoa, ask your CLOR.
As far as saying the minhag should be abolished, the people who wish so, want to do so just to show that they can overturn a centuries old hangagah at their whom and not for any neccesity. There does not seem to be any pressing society need to change the minhag. There are way more options today for food than there ever has been.
Thank you, thank you for your wording and tone. Thank you.
The O-U went to Peru and saw how Quinoa is grown. it not true that it grows near other grains.
I’ve mentioned this before but no one has ever responded. If minhagim cannot change, how were the chassidim able to throw away centuries of minhagim? They discarded the nusach and adopted a new one.
Less,
You should not be the one asking the question. And it does not warrant a response because it is only lekantar.
ZD,
You will notice that I said “to some extent”. Quinoa is not grown only in Peru. They checked out a specific production in Peru.
In addition, it is generally described (from Wikipedia) as “a grain crop grown primarily for its edible seeds”. Which also explains why there are poskim who say that the original minhag of kitniyos extends to quinoa as well. Which would not extend to potatoes.
The O-U only permits Quinoa with its Hashghaca (Or Star-k). It is not a blanker permissability.
Potatoes can be used like grain, Ever hear of Potato Bread?
For the record, there were those (most notably the Chayei Adam) who wanted to add potatoes to Kitniyos as well.
ZD,
So?
Potato bread is chometz gamur. It has wheat flour in it.
There are numerous reasons given for the issur of kitniyos, and based on the different possibilities, there is often a a machlokes whether a particular item falls under the category of kitniyos.
It’s a somewhat complex halachic matter. The issue here, which I believe the OP is alluding to, is that some people are expressing opinions based on sociological factors rather than halachic.
Sure, they’ll make it sound halachic, but these people wouldn’t express their opinion on some complex issue in hilchos taaruves, yet have no problem when it comes to kitniyos.
Potato bread in the store is Chametz, however one could make it in their homes that it would not be Chametz
DaasYochid; hilchos taaruvos-HUH? The reasosn given for the minhag of kitnyos is pretty clear from the early rishonim, primarily ashkenazi rishonim. Why add to it? I understand that one has to make sure that ,whatever the product, it contains no chometz (hence, a hechsher for quinoa) but why add things to a gezeirah on our own? About the only item that predates the minhag is rice. As mentioned, I do not at kitnyos because I am respectful of minhagim -this is why I don’t eat “gebrocks”,although it is a minute “cheshash”. All the newfangled “chumros” show how far we have come in our prediliction for chumros.
ZD, I never tried it. Potato starch is used for chometz-like pastries, which is probably the reasoning behind the Chayei Adam cited by Sam, but as I mentioned, it’s not as simple as that.
ROB, taaruvos is my way of expresing how people oversimplify hilchos kitniyos, which you just did again.
You need not be machmir on all of the shailos; that’s fine, but you shouldn’t make fun of those who are. There are real shittos about this.
About the socialogical factors
If someone moved to a Chassidish community, would they be required not to eat Gebrachs even if their family was Litvish or even Sephardic.
DaasYochid: I never make fun of minhagim (or,indeed chumros).On the contrary, I am more than respectful about minhagim and follow them myself. My argument has been that many of those chumros become standard and are meant for everyone. That, clearly, should not be the norm. (Some examples: music during sefira days,water in Brooklyn, strawberries everywhere, etc…)
ROB,
Bringing in water and strawberries just deflates your whole argument.
Everyone holds that eating bugs is ossur.
Zahavasdad, if you mean Williamsburg or Boro Park, probably not. New Square or Kiryas Yoel, probably yes.
(I don’t know what this has to do with sociology, though.)
Popa, that’s precisely it. It’s a moshol!
They want to show that we’re backwards because we keep kitniyos even though the reasons applicable in the era when the issur was accepted no longer apply.
So too, the Torah’s values, which at one time made sense, ch”v no longer apply.
Nisht: Hah! Of course, I included those because they clearly are the signs that we accept chumros all the time. I am not talking about actual bugs,of course. The problem of drinking water in Brooklyn has been debunked and strawberries- well, I have had this argument on another thread.
ROB,
I am not going to argue with you bout facts. Facts that I have observed with my own eyes.
takamamsh:
“I grew up eating peanuts on Pesach, and I clearly remember my Mom z”l using peanut oil. You cannot convince me that some time between the late 60s/early 70s until today that peanuts magically became kitniyot.”
Me neither. However, I can be convinced that most poskim hold that peanuts were always considered (or at least, should always have been considered) kitniyos.
charliehall:
Just because a grain has been (relatively) recently discovered does not mean that it can’t fall into a category, and hence a prohibition, that is hundreds of years older. And it is nothing short of ridiculous to say that finding another application of a rule is changing the essence of the rule; would you say the fact that turning on a light is assur shows that Shabbos observance can be “changed”?!
Barry:
“As to Quinoa, the Star-K tested and researched it and proved that Quinoa is not kitniyos and as you say, the issue has gone wild and taken on a life of it’s own. That’s the times we live in. The Chumrah of the month club run amok.”
While there are indeed qualified poskim who are matir quinoa, I’m under the impression that there are qualified poskim who assur it as well. Just because somebody holds a different halachic position than you do is no reason to belittle it.
lesschuraha:
“I’ve mentioned this before but no one has ever responded. If minhagim cannot change, how were the chassidim able to throw away centuries of minhagim? They discarded the nusach and adopted a new one.”
First of all, they adopted a nusach in line with teachings of the Ari, not just their stomachs. Second, many were indeed very upset at them.
mw13: Most Poskim do not hold they always were. Most quote R’ Moshe of Havu D’lo L’hosif
And his point was that since Chassidus was eventually accepted, we should be able to accept that other Minhagim can change.
Sam2, I wasn’t saying that most Poskim do or do not hold peanuts are are kitniyos. I was merely pointing out that according to those said Poskim, it would have always been assur. The fact that more people hold of that shittah today does not mean the shittah itself has changed.
“Chassidus was eventually accepted”
Not by the Litvaks. Which I think includes most of us here.
“Not by the Litvaks.”
If you mean that the Litvaks didn’t become Chasidim, you’re correct. But the Litvish gedolim sit on the same moetzes gedolei haTorah as the Chasidish gedolim and on the same communal organizations. And they marry across the spectrum quite frequently. IOW, they each accept the other as being a legitimate Torah community and shittos.
mw13: Actually, I’m not sure that works by a Minhag. If the Minhag wasn’t Nahug, it’s kinda not a Minhag anymore.
mw13: And there are Hashgochos who researched it further and changed their minds. Also, making a comment about the “chumrah of the month club” doesn’t belittle anyone, as no one was mentioned.
While i’m not a big fan of the Star-K, I did read their report on the issue and the testing that they did.
It’s not a Halachic position of mine, since I really don’t care about it, but I do believe in the truth and everyone can do as they wish.
Nisht, insulting me is not an answer. My issue is not with kitniyos,as I hold the minhwg and am not looking to change. My issue was why people hold minhagim cannot change when in fact they do. Ashkenazi or Sephardic women adopt their husband’s minhagim. In Europe’s shtetls newcomers adopted local minhagim. I’ve heard the Ari zl justification, but that’s all it is, a good justification. If you learn Soocos, the Gemorrsh mentions several minhagim that we no longer practice. It happens and doesn’t diminish Yiddishkeit
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