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i love coffe -Look if a person is strong in their Hashkafa -it doesn’t matter where they go to school. On the other hand, if s/o has weak Hashkofas, even if they go to a “Frum” college, they can go OTD!
I think I can give a better perspective, considering I’m probably one of the younger posters in this thread. I’m in Yeshiva in the mornings, and in the afternoons/evenings I’m currently a Senior in a “regular” college (i.e. not a Jewish one) majoring in Computer Science. I went to college because I felt that it is a necessary evil in order to have a degree and make a decent living for my family.
That being said, I would not recommend it to anyone who’s actually considering learning all day or getting into klei kodesh (Rebbi, Shochet, STA”M, etc.). The environment is most definitely NOT what an ehrliche Yid should be in, in all regards of how people dress and act, as well as the required classes. While I have no complaints about the contents of the CompSci courses I took, some of the requisite courses in literature and other topics contained material that literally made me walk out of class on several occasions (I spoke with the Professor and explained my objections and he understood).
I’ve routinely had to have dealings with females in my class, and unlike in a work environment (I’ve had experience with that as well) it is expected to go beyond a working relationship. It’s very difficult for me to explain that no, I don’t want to go to the bar with them after class, and it takes even longer for them to accept that.
The way these girls dress- even in the winter!- is the type which you simply don’t find in the working world where (hopefully) you work for a company that has some sort of professional dress code. While I haven’t seen too much of the boy-girl thing I’ve had many friends from my Yeshiva who have.
Bottom line, getting an education is important, yes, but from someone who’s doing it, for many who want to keep their neshamos pure, a secular college just may not be worth the risk.
The reality is most people are not spending tens of thousands of dollars and 4-5 years (or more) of their life to learn about Comparitive religions, Philosophy , evolution , Freud , gender studies or other disciples that might be objective.
Almost everyone (And not just frum jews) are going to college to get a better job. You might have heard about the guy who caught a home run by Derek Jeter, he had $100,000 in College debt. One does not amass that kind of debt unless you think it will pay off.
Yeah I took an Anthropology course that the professor once brought in someone with questionable ideas and I took a yiddish literature course taught be a recontructionist rabbi (Almost everyone in the class was frum) It met some college requirement.
But those were the exception and for most people those classes are the exception as well
zahava’s dad:
I think that is a bit inaccurate. I think you’ll find that most people who go to a 4 year college are walking out with a degree that has little practical relevance.
What you are saying is very accurate for professional graduate degrees, though. (Except law. Most people who go to law school are walking out with a useless degree.)
Many companies will not hire unless you have a college degree, even if its a degree in philosophy.
its not about reveleance,its about getting a job or at least getting your foot in the door
zahavasdad: Yes, that is true. However, as many college graduates are learning today, the college degree doesn’t really cut it anymore, and is quite often a complete waste of money.
I think I read somewhere that Enterprise Rent-a-car is a the largest employer of college graduates.
kollel_wife, Stern and Touro are not comparable in terms of potential issues. For starters, Stern is (proudly) “Modern Orthodox” while Touro is not.
Because about 25% of Americans have a college degree, if you dont have one you are at a disadvantage.
It might be the Enterprise is the largest employer of college graduates, but if you are not a college graduate, they are not hiring you.
I do believe that a YU/Stern education is not really worth the $31K a year ($120K or more total) but an education from CUNY (Queens, Brooklyn, Hunter) is about $30K you will almost definatly get that back
The “Beacon” controversy would never have happened in Touro.
If you are going to college for amusement or education it is cheaper and easier to go to a library and read the books for free.
If you are getting an degree so you can function in the goyim’s world, it is rather silly to attempt to be ignorant of aspects you feel might be against Torah such as, to use examples mentioned above, which aren’t all that clear: “Big bang” (some think they got the idea from kaballa), “Evolution” (yet “natural selection” is not even a shailoh or Psychology (which is a huge subject with many specialties). What you might consider is that if you are entering any field with such controversies, is whether one needs to have a level of Torah learning that allows discussing such subjects with frei Jews and goyim, and learning the halachos of such matters (which get complex if they involve Torah she baal peh, especially kaballah’dik issues, and especially for women who customarily get only a limited Torah education in such matters).
If you really want a subject that raises no problems (no ethical concerns upon which you’ll have to know halacha, no issues of subject matters verging on kaballah, etc.), avoid the humanities and social sciences, as well as most of the sciences. Mechanical engineering should be okay as long as you avoid modern physics. Math shouldn’t be too bad. If you really want to avoid all possible halachic issues, consider something dependent on manual labor.
The reality is the frum lifestyle is expensive between large families, Yeshiva Tuition, high cost of kosher food and the higher real estate costs in religious neighborhoods.
Jobs you will get with a college degree pay higher and the average college graduate makes about 25% higher than a non-graduate. While one could pursue manual labor in many cases the pay is lower.
Popa – most law degrees are useless? care to elaborate?
frumnotyeshivish:
In the US every year, 45,000 people graduate law school, and there are 30,000 entry level jobs available.
Most of those jobs pay 40-60k, but still require the same hours that the big firms do.
You do the math.
Figures don’t lie but liars can figure. Whichever side of the statistics you look at (the law schools’ numbers vs. the failure indebted graduates’ numbers) is full of lies. There are more graduates from non-top-tier schools than top-tier schools. Even St. John’s, ranked 95th in the country, with the most anti-law school adjusted numbers, has 46.63 percent job placement #s in private firms. 25/50/75 percentile salary is 75k/150k/160k. Being that St. John’s offers large scholarships if one does well on the LSAT, one can theoretically have a very cheap Law School education, be in the better half of the class in not such a great school and make good money. The numbers given are the 9 month #s as adjusted by the law school transparency website.
I can’t figure out if you’re calling me a liar. So I’ll let it pass.
Those numbers are a lie. There are not 25% of St. Johns graduates making 160. And there are certainly not 75% of them making 75. I know several people there, and one of them told me he is aware of only three people in his class who have a summer associate position for this coming summer.
There are only a few thousand biglaw jobs in the country every year. And they are not going to St. Johns grads. They are going to the top half of the class in the top 14 law schools, and the top 10% of the next 30 or so schools.
Sorry, that is just the way it is. Go to a website like top-law-schools dot com, and they will explain it well.
75% of the 47% of the graduating class that got private law firm jobs, or about 35% of the total class, make 75k or more according to anti-law school #s. I spent much of the the last two hours reading interesting articles on the subject.
Frumnotyeshivish:
That sounds closer. 35% (1/3) are making 75k. Another 12% have some law firm job.
I still don’t believe those numbers. There is no way over 10% of the class is getting 160 jobs post-2009. My friend knows lots of people, and knows of only 3 who have those jobs for this summer. Those numbers sound more like Fordham (also not worth attending except maybe on full scholarship.)
But, even if those numbers are true, you need to consider that against the debt these students are taking out. If you borrow 150 to go to school, and walk out making 75, that is not a good deal. And those numbers are the numbers only for the 47% who are getting jobs- what about the other half of the class?
RE: the scholarships. They are loose with them, but they attach strong conditions of grades. The way the grading system works, it is impossible for everyone to keep their scholarships.
I don’t know how you can attend a school for 3 years and pay 150 if there is even a 20% chance of not getting a job that will pay enough to make it worth it. Let alone a school with 80% chance of that.
If you are considering law school, I strongly urge you to read the site I mentioned earlier.
mike hall
your comment above should be required teaching in all yeshivas today
yasher koach for having your head on straight
frumnotyeshivish:
I also include, for your enjoyment, a graph of the salary distribution for entry level legal positions. This graph shows that the salaries are bundled in two groups: One group makes 160, and the other group makes 40-65. There is basically nothing in between.
The consequence of this, is that if you are not in the 160 group, even if you just miss it, you are down by 40-65.
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