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yichusdik -“Hah, Health, you made me laugh. You aren’t going to do the research for me! you don’t need to, I already have, and guess what? I haven’t found any regulation, legislation, or policy from the Israeli govt and the Jewish agency to do what you claim (shmad) BECAUSE THERE NEVER WAS SUCH A POLICY!”
When did I say they had an official policy to Shmad?
“Your circular logic is mind boggling. That’s why I said, show me evidence, (perhaps I missed something) and I will concede the point. Etc.”
And your defense of the Tzionim is even more mind boggling!
You will only find the Zionists guilty of Shmad if the Maizid was to Shmad. But you openly admit they caused them to Shmad, but you give some lame excuse. They knew what religious Judaism meant, but they didn’t care. Who cares that they were focused on other things? The fact is they knew these people were practicing their religion for thousands of years, but they forced them to work on Shabbos and maybe eat Treif. So being forced to do these things you forget about Yiddishkeit after awhile. This is the Shmad and this they did on purpose. There is no excuse for them making them work on Shabbos or anything else that they did.
You’re the type of guy that would defend Zionists if they served them pig. “Well pig was on sale and they didn’t do it to Shmad them, just to save money!”
The Freye Zionists nowadays are mostly Tinuk Sneshbas -what will be your excuse after a 120?
Avi K: The gedolim you quoted supported the state at its begining because it COULD HAVE BEEN a good thing for bnei yisrael. Hashem did show his love for bnei yisrael by giving us an unprecedented opportunity for spiritual and material revival after the terrible gezeira. After ’67 R’ Chaim Shmulevitz RY of Mir said something similar. But the opportunity was missed and misused, to put it mildly. The truth is that we still have the opportunity to turn things around and prepare the way for mashiach. But as long as the state persists in actions that are the opposite of bringing us closer to Hashem, it cannot be supported. (btw i don’t know that the gedolim you quoted supported the state but i’ll take your word for it)
gavra: your personal attack on Health was just wrong. you should be a gavra and apologize publicly on this thread.
“The worst things that the secular Zionists did, including the Teimani children (if it actually happened) pale in comparison to what Yannai and Omri did but they are praised for the good things. “
I’m not sure I understand this – WHO are praised for the good things? If Yannai and Omri killed many talmidei chachomim, at least they only took their olam hazeh. The tzionim want to take olam haba’ah as well.
Avi K: You have a repeated tendency to take the names of many strongly anti-zionists rabbonim zt’l and imply they somehow supported zionism c’v by falsely attributing positions to them they never took.
There is unfortunately no practical way currently at our disposal to dismantle the State of Israel, but if I were to say for instance that Christianity is Avodah Zora, would you ask me well no Rabbonim advocated dismantling Christianity?
GAW-
It has been a long time since I’ve read that period of history, but the first thing that comes to mind is Kol Chotzev, the biography of R’ Sholom Schwadron. In that book his description of the situation betwen the zionists and the Yemenites is documented, as well as his efforts on the Yemenites’ behalf. I am sure I have read about it in other similar works.
Not that I’m trying to help, but be fair. Ignorance of the facts does not change the facts.
gavra: your personal attack on Health was just wrong. you should be a gavra and apologize publicly on this thread.
Ittisa also said I went over the line. I was thinking about the right way to say it, but I haven’t come up with it yet. So I’ll simply retract my statement and apologize for the hurt that it caused. Health is your name, and may you be blessed with health.
squeak: I’m not saying it didn’t happen. I’m just bringing the objection for people who say things are true because “they are the truth!”. Otherwise I have no beef in this discussion one way or the other (and don’t really care one way or the other). As I said earlier, I was taught that it did happen, and I THINK that it did happen. That doesn’t prove that it did happen.
GAW -“So I’ll simply retract my statement and apologize for the hurt that it caused.”
Apology accepted.
greatest -“There is unfortunately no practical way currently at our disposal to dismantle the State of Israel,”
I disagree. I posted many times here – perhaps Turkey would be willing to take over the government.
Longarkel, you are right. When are you going to be a Nachson and make aliya, take on Israeli citizenship and vote?
Sushe, their statements are on record. They obviously regretted the secularism but they saw the State as the beginning of the Geula.
Health, as much of Turkey is in the area promised to Avraham Avinu it should be the other way around.
Nechomah, I cited the places. Rambam at the beginning of Hilchot Chanuka and the Gemara in Sanhedrin 102b regarding Omri (it also praises Achav for supporting talmidei chachamim and refusing Ben Haddad’s demand to turn over the Tora to him – apparently the forerunner of the Kotel contraversy).
Health, my great grandfather and g grandmother, two of my great aunts/uncles – those who survived, their kids, all came to Israel at the same time as the Teimanim. They had nothing left after the war, and came to Israel with a bit more than the teimanim, but not much. My G grandparents maintained their level of frumkeit, but 1/2 of their children in Israel much less so. Some of THEIR grandchildren are frum, and have even become more frum, but others have not. Bottom line, They came, lived, worked and did their best in a very trying time. No one forced them to work on shabbes, no one forced them to eat treif. When my cousins were in the army, there was no such thing as a netzach yehuda battalion, but no one forced them to be mechallel shabbes (with the exception of wartime, where the heter is clear. I recall the head of the Gerer community in the city where I live telling me about the radio they brought in to the shul/shteeble on Yom Kippur 1973, to let people know about call ups, including the army’s chevra kadisha). “Forced” is the word you used, and in the context of a state that means policy or law.
And Health, I don’t need excuses. You want to be the Tzedoki insistent on ignoring “vechai bohem”, go right ahead. You know what they ended up as, despite having pure intentions. I’ll stick with the way of the perushim.
The perushim are the biggest anti-zionists.
Greatest, +1. Now why didn’t I think of this fantastic mashal?
Avi K: The problem is that the democratic government of israel will never allow a situation where democracy will be overthrown in place of a Torah government. Even though theoretically if enough people voted to end democracy, then democracy would have to end, of course it would not be allowed to happen in practice. So moving to israel and voting is not a practical solution.
Avi K -“Health, as much of Turkey is in the area promised to Avraham Avinu it should be the other way around.”
News Flash! -Right now it’s not the begining of the Geula! Moshiach is Not here.
So when he comes -he will tell us the boundries of EY. Until then -give this Treif Medina to Turkey.
yichusdik -“Health, my great grandfather and g grandmother, two of my great aunts/uncles – those who survived, their kids, all came to Israel at the same time as the Teimanim. They had nothing left after the war, and came to Israel with a bit more than the teimanim, but not much. My G grandparents maintained their level of frumkeit, but 1/2 of their children in Israel much less so. Some of THEIR grandchildren are frum, and have even become more frum, but others have not. Bottom line, They came, lived, worked and did their best in a very trying time. No one forced them to work on shabbes, no one forced them to eat treif.”
Where they put into the Jewish agency’s absorption camps?
“”Forced” is the word you used, and in the context of a state that means policy or law.”
No, you can force s/o to do something without a formal decree.
How about they said something like this -“Either you work everyday including Shabbos and if you don’t work any day -that day -you don’t eat”?
“And Health, I don’t need excuses. You want to be the Tzedoki insistent on ignoring “vechai bohem”, go right ahead. You know what they ended up as, despite having pure intentions. I’ll stick with the way of the perushim.”
Explain this rambling here -you don’t make any sense.
Sushe, you misspelled “porshim”.
Health, the Turks already have a treif leader. Regarding the Geula, see the Yerushalmi (Berachot 1:1) that it comes slowly in stages. BTW, what you wrote about working on Shabbat was in America. Sweatshops had signs “if you don’t come in on Saturday don’t come in on Monday” – and “treife medina” was the nickname given to America by rabbanim who told people not to go.
Avi K -“Health, the Turks already have a treif leader.”
So it’s perfect for him to take over Israel. He knows how to run a Treif government!
“Regarding the Geula, see the Yerushalmi (Berachot 1:1) that it comes slowly in stages.”
And who told you it started yet?
“BTW, what you wrote about working on Shabbat was in America. Sweatshops had signs “if you don’t come in on Saturday don’t come in on Monday” -“
No, I was talking about Israel. What happenned here – I wasn’t discussing.
“and “treife medina” was the nickname given to America by rabbanim who told people not to go.”
No, I wasn’t talking about the USA, I was talking about Israel.
It’s better to live here with the Treif Goyim, than to live in Israel under the Trief Jewish government!
Health,
1. Convince him to be mitgayer and then come yourself and promote his party.
2.All of the rabbbanim of our generation with the exception of a small handful agree that we are in atchalta d’Geula.
3. Nobody in Israel is or was ever forced to work on Shabbat.
4. Israel is not a treif medina as it is the fulfillment of a mitzva d’Oraita and according to all opinions, even those of Leftists, it has and should continue to have a Jewish character. This or that politician or government has nothing to do with the Medina as a medina.
5. Rambam says (Hilchot Melachim 5:12) that it is better to live in EY in a city whose majority are idolators than a city in Chutz La’Aretz whose majority are Jews.
Longarkel,
Democracy and Tora go hand in hand (Berachot 55a and Heemek Devar Devarim 17:14).
Avi K: What?? Brachos 55 speaks about dreams. Did you mean that you were dreaming when you made this statement? The Torah tells us what God wants us to do in all situations. Please explain what that has to do with democracy.
longrakel: Avi has been making up sources and alleged positions of various rabbis as the conversation has been going on.
Avi K -“Health,
1. Convince him to be mitgayer and then come yourself and promote his party.”
You’re not allowed to go seek Goyim for Geyrus. He should rule as a Goy.
As long as Moshiach isn’t here -EY has to governed by Goyim.
“2.All of the rabbbanim of our generation with the exception of a small handful agree that we are in atchalta d’Geula.”
False! All of the rabbbanim of our generation & the previous one, with the exception of a small handful, agree that we are NOT in atchalta d’Geula!
“3. Nobody in Israel is or was ever forced to work on Shabbat.”
Wrong! They were forced to in the ’50’s – to work on Shabbos in the Jewish Agency’s absorption camps!
“4. Israel is not a treif medina as it is the fulfillment of a mitzva d’Oraita and according to all opinions, even those of Leftists, it has and should continue to have a Jewish character. This or that politician or government has nothing to do with the Medina as a medina.”
The Israeli government is Treif and this is what I mean by saying Treif Medina. Nothing to do with EY proper.
“5. Rambam says (Hilchot Melachim 5:12) that it is better to live in EY in a city whose majority are idolators than a city in Chutz La’Aretz whose majority are Jews.”
Acc. to Gedolim, this doesn’t apply nowadays. This would only apply if the gov. weren’t a bunch of Kofrim!
We can go on saying “yes it is”, “no it isn’t” until Mashiach comes. I suggest to that whoever decides these things should close this thread.There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Avi K -“There are none so blind as those who will not see.”
I hope you are speaking to yourself. Most Frum people agree that the Medina is Not the begining of the Geula!
Health, considering the fact that you only consider people like yourself to be frum that is a tautology. If you are talking about the usual definition you are simply WRONG.
Avi K -“Health, considering the fact that you only consider people like yourself to be frum that is a tautology. If you are talking about the usual definition you are simply WRONG.”
I don’t know what your definition is but mine is s/o who is Shomer Torah Oomitzvos. I can’t count every MO person as Frum because a lot of them don’t keep Taharas Hamishpacha and/or Shabbos acc. to Halacha. This I’ve seen first hand.
So I’ll repeat -“Most Frum people agree that the Medina is Not the begining of the Geula!”
Yesh Din V’Yesh Dayon, and you ain’t him. Health, did it ever occur to you that no one asked you to judge who is frum and who is not? No one granted you the right, you just arrogated it.
Hillel Hazoken famously described the mitzvah of Veohavot loreacho komocho as being shaveh l’lkol hatoroh koloh. Are you observing it k’das vodin? Are you 100% sure? And if not, what does that say about your frumkeit, by your standards? Are you an objective judge for yourself?
Judgment is for a beis din, or for HKB’H. Not you or me.
Avi K – “We can go on saying “yes it is”, “no it isn’t” until Mashiach comes. I suggest to that whoever decides these things should close this thread.”
That’s what I said 3 pages ago. Great to see you reached the same insight now as well.
Health – will you, please, come to the same conclusion? There is simply no point in continuing this discussion.
Long ago, I decided never to enter into this discussion of Eretz Yisroel as the beginning of the geulah. The ‘health’s of this world will continue in their way and the ones who do believe in Erets Yisroel as the embodiment of the coming geulah will show to their accomplishments. History will prove one of the sides right and let’s hope we live so long.
Indeed.
In the meantime we should focus on those things we DO agree on – such as shabbos, kashrus, and other non-controversial issues.
The worst part of it all is that there are people who do not want to speak to others, or, worse, impose on their children who they may speak and play with – based on “he’s Zionist” or “he’s against the Medinah”. Since when does THAT determine who we are?!
It is, in my eyes, certainly a very important topic. However, that which binds us together is, or at least, it SHOULD be, much stronger.
People like the NK extremists or the Zionist extremists who oppose them, forget this and live lifes of hatred.
The Medina cannot possibly be “Treif” as it provides us with security and thereby enables us to serve Hashem in peace. It may have been against Halacha to intially establish the Medina, but now that the Medina is already established we must show our appreciation for it and help sustain it, since dismantling the Medina is not an option anymore.
The Chassidishe Gatesheader: I could not have said that better myself. I have attempted to say that same thing many times in many situations. Well done.
Lomed Mkol Adam -“since dismantling the Medina is not an option anymore.”
I disagree. I’ll repeat – Israel should be given to the Goyim.
Perhaps Turkey will take it over?
yichusdik -“Health, did it ever occur to you that no one asked you to judge who is frum and who is not? No one granted you the right, you just arrogated it.”
I’m entitled to my opinion of who is considered Frum. You’re also entitled to your opinion of whom is considered Frum. What I think is that you really don’t disagree with my definition of -s/o who is Shomer Torah Oomitzvos, (this isn’t a radical right wing definition), but you couldn’t let an opportunity of ranking me out pass. So you put up this silly argument that I’m not Hashem etc. How pathetic!
rabboisai.the oilem should read genocide in the holy landwhich bring in detail the shmad commited to the teimani iraqi etc CHILDREN!!its got hundred of documents to prove it.but its very hard to find because its been banned!!!so has perfidy which details the the collaboration of zionist leaders to the destruction of hungary’s jews.and they should learn if they are able to the Vayoel moshe which is not a extremist sefer,but a halacha sefer. the baba sali, when he was given it locked himself in a room for three days.after which he came out and says rabbotay,we need to make a siyum i have just finished a masechta.
Health!!!Stop it already! What would giving E. Yisroel to Turkey accomplish? Me’stama, they are going to enforce t’znius in Beit Shemesh? Right? They are going to make a law that everybody has to be frum?
Ymb and the rest of the Satmar fans, stop the propaganda already! Stop with all the stories about this or that Godol who was machshiv the Satmar Rebbe! Almost nobody else held or holds like him!
And stop hocking about the Teimani ma’ase etc. Russia shmaded by far much more Jews in its history. To whom do you want to give Russia over?
@Health, ymb – I support you and I agree with you, however there is NO point in continuing this discussion.
@mdd – I’d rather say “almost nobody else” held or holds like Rav Kook and his side. By the way, your comparison to Russia is completely off, since Russia is not ruled by Jews and doesn’t claim to be a “Jewish” state!
The Chassidishe Gatesheader, when they say they are Jews and their state is Jewish, they mean ethnic Jews, for crying out!!! And everybody in the world understands that (except, for some ultra-Orthodox people who do not know what’s going on in the world)! And if the country were ruled by the Muslims, and there were a very large community of frei Yidden, what would be better?!?
Plus, I never said everybody else holds like Rav Kook!!
mdd -“Health!!!Stop it already! What would giving E. Yisroel to Turkey accomplish? Me’stama, they are going to enforce t’znius in Beit Shemesh? Right? They are going to make a law that everybody has to be frum?”
Let me explain something -I want Goyim to run Israel for the same reason I think a major war with Iran will be good. The reason is because I think one or the other will expedite the Geulah.
A lot of people in our Dor do lip service everyday in Davening and elsewhere saying they want Moshiach. Do they really want Moshiach? Are they really willing to give up the great Gashmius that they live in Golus? People in Golus all over which includes Israel have very nice lives (not e/o, but a lot). How many really want that to stop tomorrow and everybody will be exactly equal?
Does the Rosh Hayeshiva want to get the same amount of Kovod as an Am Haaretz? Does the rich man want to be on the exact same social status as the poor man? These are hard questions that people must ask themselves. This I believe is what Moshiach times will look like. So barring the first two things I mentioned above, I believe that in order for him to come -everybody has to really want him. Now the question is – does everybody truly, really want him to come???!?!?
@mdd – “when they say they are Jews and their state is Jewish, they mean ethnic Jews, for crying out!!!”
I fail to get the point… I really do. Can you explain why this has any relevance? Does that make any difference?
Now if they were to change their flag to something ‘neutral’ (ie, a completely new flag which is not ‘based on a tallis’ and not with a magen david in it), and to change the language to Arabic, German, French or English or so, and to change the citizenship laws and abandon the “Law of Return”, abandon any laws relating to shabbos or yom tov, completely separate state from religion (ie, abolish the Rabbanut and institute civil marriage), then, maybe, we could speak about this state being permitted even if its government would consist of 100% ethnic Jews. Then one could say it is simply a coincidence that 80% of the people in that country happen to be Jews.
But as long as the flag consists of symbols that are widely recognized as representative of Judaism, as long as they speak something resembling Hebrew, as long as any (descendent of a) Jew can immediately immigrate and get a passport, as long as shabbos and yom tov are somewhat slightly protected by laws, as long as the Rabbanut decides by law on who can marry who, this is, though completely wrong and false and improper and whatever else, widely recognized to be a “Jewish country”.
mdd- we dont care what they mean. The jewish people are a nation only insofar as they are mishubid to the torah. if they dont subscribe they relenquish the maaleh. and then all that remains is an empty shell.
Toi, there are two aspects to Jewishness. Nationhood, which is not subject to bechira, and religion, which is. Both Rav Soloveichik and Rav Kuk discuss this.
The Gatesheader, nobody is mistaken to think that they are pious Jews.
Toi, what does that have to do with anything?? O.K., so they discarded the ma’alah, now what?
Toi, maybe you meant that they violate the copyright laws by calling themselves Jewish?
Actually, only people who are descended from Yehuda are Jewish.
avi k- i no longer answer your posts. But for the record, i obviously didnt mean they lose the title of jew, rather that the right to identify with the nation and shmiras torah umitzvos go hand in hand. theyre worse then goyim; they even got you to believe in a false messiah, while christianity didnt succede.
mdd- why in the world are you in support of a govt./culture that has ceded from the followers of torah true judaism. im not saying to give it to turkey, but having a frei state isnt stam less then ideal, its misleading, both in name and practice. The chazon ish in his lifetime said that maybe the Chasam Sofer would be able to come up with an eitzah to fix the situation klal yisroel found themselves in. the fact that we havent discovered it doesnt make the medina good.
chevre,tachlis,the reasons against the medina are because it is a violation of the3 shvues.
although the ‘religious’zionists”(which rav elchonon says is a stira minei ubei because it means it means toras hashem need the leum as well and is not temima chas veshalom)says it is not halacha but haggada,that is a stupidity because plenty of hagada is halacha,and the avnei nezer explains what these shvues are.he says Hashem yisborach made klal yisroel swear that during the golus they will never be transgress these 3 these oaths,for if they do Hashem will chas veshalom take away HIs Hashgoche pratis that protects us, from us ,and Mimeyle the possuk ANI MATIR ES BESSARCHEM KETSVAOS VEAYaLOS HASSODE…WHICH Is the most dangerous thing there could be.(the tragic Fogel Massacre Reminded me of this!!)Take into Account that since israel was founded many many More yidden have been killed there than in the whole world combined…
thats without taking into account how much we have suffered because of them.
every time israel is into the news because it NEEDS to retaliate antisemitism around the world crops up….ANd Jews all around the world suffer because of them…but what do they care..
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