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Tora Yid: Not all of the leaders from Beis Chashmonayim later were. And yet the Lashon of the Rambam as to why we celebrate Channukah is that they re-established Jewish sovereignty and kept it for almost 200 (I think) years, even though many of those did not have leaders who were Frum. He makes a good point.
What Is Zionism?
Look at these statements and guess who made them:
The Jews are a non-people, a non-nation – non-men, indeed.
Jews have taken on a number of antisocial characteristics.
Jewish life is a dog’s life that evokes disgust.
Jews are like filthy dogs, inhuman dogs.
The Nazis? The Ku Klux Klan? David Duke?
No. Those statements were made by early Zionists and Maskilim. The second one was said by Herzl. That’s why they created Zionism. They were unhappy with the traditional Jewish “nation” (and its despised state among the nations) so they strove to get rid of it and replace it with a new one. A real one. One that would be “normal” – like the Goyishe nations.
Their goal was to re-define the very meaning of a Jew and the Jewish nation.
Rav Avigdor Miller ZTL describes it as follows:
What Haman and Titus could not do, the Israelis are attempting. The first could only attempt to destroy the physical existence of Israel, but the State of Israel is attempting to counterfeit the term Jew and to erase all boundaries between Jew and non-Jew (Sing You Righteous, p. 20).
The way they sought to accomplish this was through rewriting national history, including creating new national heroes, allies and enemies, politics, aspirations, culture, even a new language, and re-educating the masses, especially the youth who they tried very hard to separate, culturally and psychologically, from their parents. They would leverage thousands of years of Jewish history and religion, and exploit them to give an illusion of historical momentum to their newly created nationality. And, of course, they would also use plain force of arms to make sure that the New Hebrew replaced the old religious Jew (as in the case of the children of Tehran). They learned these tried-and-true methods from other people who used them or variations thereof, including the Bolsheviks /Communists.
Torah Yid you need to read Josh’s post straight. He clearly says leaders of the Chashmonoim AFTER the Chanukah story. Of course the later Chashmonai kings were anti-Perushim, especially Alexander Yannai. Does anyone actually learn Jewish history anymore, or do we just wing it and modify it to suit our ideological needs?
Torah Yid, It’s you who need to get your story straight The Hasmoneans violated Torah from the get-go by usurping Malchus Beis David. Bear in mind that Torah observance in 150 BCE was a little different (okay, a lot different) than today. The Hasmoneans by and large were publicly observant but were either indifferent or actually hostile to Rabbinic Judaism. Note that the most successful Hasmonean king, Alexander Yanai, killed 50,000 talmidei chachamim.
Chazal criticized the Chashmonoim for assuming soveirgnty as they were Kohanim and not from Shevet Yehuda. The fact that later the family included anti-Torah leaders is a bad thing, not a good thing.
Does anyone actually learn Jewish history anymore, or do we just wing it and modify it to suit our ideological needs?
The second option.
The sole purpose of history is to show the proper derech. It is similar to Gedolim “stories” in the Artscroll Seforim. They exist for Mussar and to show the Derech HaYashar, not to actually tell the story of the Gedolim. That would be more for a biography, which Artscroll does not print.
Hakatan makes quite the statement about the world before zionism. For the record, wishing does not make it so.
“Before Zionism, Teimanim had their mesorah and yahadus since bayis rishon and tens of thousands of sefardim were also still observant Jews, as would have been their descendants today and beyond.”
Even at the outset of Islamic rule in Yemen, Jews had to pay the Jizya tax, could not build any beis knesses above a certain height, had the social status of dhimmi, and sometimes had to wear distinctive clothing. But when the Shia muslim Zaidi clan came to power about 1100 years ago, they began to persecute teimani Jews in horrible ways, much as the Zaydi descended Houthi clan of the northwest of Yemen is doing now, calling for the murder of all Jews, and recently murdering one of the few Rabonim left there. They were not allowed to raise a hand to defend themselves if beaten; they were forced to walk barefoot in non Jewish parts of towns; they were not allowed to touch food or other items belonging to muslims; they were regarded as impure in muslim law. And contrary to your perception of their ditinctive purity, there were at least three false moshiach movements among teimanim, making them no less susceptible than Europeans and mizrachim to such movements. And as for the vicious lies spread by some about the “disappearance” of Teimani children, when an actual investigation was done, 96% of them were found to be exactly where expected, with about 50 who couldn’t be tracked down, including those who r’l had died young.
“Before Zionism, the Arabs did not virulently hate the Jews, and were generally cordial and even friendly.”
Not all arabs hated Jews all the time. Not all of them followed the laws of persecution all the time. But many, if not most, were guided by their Hadith (a muslim oral tradition of great importance to them) to treat Jews negatively. There is the famous hadith describing the “garkhad tree” calling out to the faithful muslim to come catch the Jew hiding behind it and kill him. One of the most famous hadith, and you can find many instances of it being repeated in mosques today. It was written 1200 years ago and more by Rasul Sultan. Do not talk about that with which you are wholly ignorant.
“Even post-Zionism, some Arabs still recognize the fraud that is Zionism and correctly do not equate Zionism with, lihavdil, Judaism.”
Yes, such statements are often made by some arabs. The same arabs who then accuse the Jews of controlling the media, or of controlling the banks, or of conspiracies like 9-11 being an inside Zionist job.
“Before Zionism, Jews and Arabs lived peacefully in Eretz Yisrael (Just to head off the uninformed question, the Chevron Massacre was a direct result of *religious* Zionism – please excuse the paradox – according to Rabbi Baruch Kaplan who was there.)”
How dare you. My great uncle was also there. By lucky chance he was at home in Yerushalayim that shabbes…His classmates were all murdered. He wasn’t from a Zionist family, and neither were the other victims. and the man responsible for fomenting the riots was Haj Amin al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. A man who took Jew hatred to a new level, who spent the war in Berlin with Hitler, and raised a muslim SS division in Bosnia. Do some research, his smiling face shaking hand with the Fuhrer is easy to find.
“Before Zionism, Jews were not seduced into becoming “post-Jewish” and culturally manipulated by (Zionist) Jews into giving up their faith in favor of Zionism.”
Before Zionism there was something called the Haskala, perhaps you heard of it? Secular Zionists had their deep foundations in the Haskala movement. And, on another tack entirely, you may not care about those pesky numbers called statistics, but if you were to look at those on secular Jews coming back from zionist birthright trips, you would find that those “manipulated” souls were much more likely to go to a shul, participate in a Jewish program, date Jewish, and MARRY Jewish after their Zionist Birthright experience. But of course, those are just statistics.
“Before Zionism, there was no need to send every young man and woman of 18 years old into the anti-Torah army that is the IDF nor was there the need for them to risk their life and limb by doing so.”
Yes, you are right on this one, there was no need, because before Zionism the only armed men most Jews would see was the Cossack coming to disembowel him and steal his children, or the Priest inciting a demented mob to burn his house down on his and his family’s head. No need to risk life and limb. none at all.
May Hashem redeem us all, completing the true Geulah, BB”A.
yichsdik: The Zionists kidnapped Teimani children in order to shmad them. And while you are correct that Arabs persecuted Jews sporadically through history (after all we were still in golus anywhere), compared to their European Jewish brethren they were relatively unmolested by comparison through the centuries.
The Zionists kidnapped Teimani children in order to shmad them.
Yes, this brings up an interesting point I have thought.
Most jews like having a state of Israel, because we feel safe that we have somewhere to go that will not kill as.
However, I personally feel safer in America than in Israel, because I think that Israel will not protect me from religious persecution as well as America will.
I feel like Israel is out to destroy Judaism, which America is not. So frankly, I think I’ll stay right here.
(Of course, I’m still glad to have Israel in case America ever decides to kill us. But I can always go Israel—->America, while you can’t always do the reverse.)
However, I personally feel safer in America than in Israel, because I think that Israel will not protect me from religious persecution as well as America will.
Agreed, from both the left and the right.
+2
Tora Yid, Rambam in the beginning of Hilchot Chanuka praises the postive accomplishments of the Chashmonaim and the fact that they restored Jewish sovereignty. Moreover, most of the holidays mentioned in Megillat Taanit as no-fasting days were celebrations of their victories. Chazal even have good words for Omri because he built EY (Sanhedrin 102b). The worst things that the secular Zionists did, including the Teimani children (if it actually happened) pale in comparison to what Yannai and Omri did but they are praised for the good things.
Agreed, from both the left and the right.
lol. Agreed as well, from both right and left.
Avi: Jews were entitled to soveirgnty in EY while the Beis Hamikdash stood. Hence what the original Chashmonoim did to the Greeks was correct. That entitlement to soveirgnty ended with the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash.
What the later Chashmonoim did was incorrect and has no bearing on the original Chashmonoim (their forefathers) from the Chanukah story.
TY,the entitlement has been restored.
Three judicial commissions of inquiry, the last one lasting 7 years and concluding in late 2001, found that of the 1,033 supposedly “disappeared” Teimani children, 972 were tracked down and – the documents were shown to the commission to prove they were not kidnapped by anyone. 5 were found to have died of illness, and 56 were unaccounted for, though an additional 22 were thought to have died of illness. That accounts for 979 to 999 of 1033, or 95% to 97% of the children accounted for. 34 to 56 children unaccounted for is a tragedy, and if there is any substantial evidence found of an organized plan to steal them away it is an outrage, but it is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a shmad. There are 300,000 Teimani Jews living in Israel today. the unaccounted for are 0.01% of those.
Zionists aren’t the only ones capable of producing, or being susceptible to propaganda.
yichusdik, you ignored 50% of what I wrote and “missed the boat” regarding the rest. I did not claim the Jews lived as Americans when they lived in Arab countries. But they were far better off physically than their brethren in lands run by the religion of brotherly love.
And they were not subject to anything like that which the “Israel Tinea Capitis Compensation Law” covers them for. The Zionists admit to this, though they compound that particular rishus, kidarkam bakodesh, by doing all they can to NOT compensate. But that’s really par for the course for the evil Zionists.
Again, regarding Chevron, Rabbi Kaplan stated that it happened because of “religious zionists”, NOT that the Yeshiva boys were Zionists.
And on and on.
Tora Yid: First of all, what’s the Makor that a right to Jewish sovereignty ends with Churban Habayis? Ad’raba, we fast Tzom Gedalia to mourn the end of even a slight Jewish sovereignty, which occurred after the Churban. And second, the Rambam points out that one of the things we celebrate on Channukah is the continues Jewish sovereignty for another 100+ years, even though the rulers and governments there were sometimes far from pro-Torah.
Avi: It most certainly has not been.
TY,the entitlement has been restored.
Avi: It most certainly has not been.
Yes it has, no it has not. Yes it has, no it has not.
Rav Kook is a Gadol, Satmer Rov is misguided. Rav Kook is misguided, Satmer Rov is a Gadol. Rav Kook is a Gadol, Satmer Rov is misguided. Rav Kook is misguided, Satmer Rov is a Gadol.
I got there first and its mine, no I got there first!
Mommy, he hit me second! No he hit me second!
Did I leave anything out? If I did, the great Bear (welcome back!) will finish it off, just like the Locusts in Arbeh finished off what remained from the great hail.
yichusdik – E/o knows that the Zionists took scores and scores of Yemenites and their kids and Shmaded them up, whether they kidnapped them or not. Do you deny this?
yichusdik – E/o knows that the Zionists took scores and scores of Yemenites and their kids and Shmaded them up, whether they kidnapped them or not. Do you deny this?
Prove it. Saying “The Gedolim said so” is unacceptable, and will disqualify you from further debate. 🙂
how about you prove they did not, I would believe anything possible with the zionists,
It’s a historical fact. How do you prove there was once a man George Washington? Or it that untrue without proof?
It’s a historical fact. How do you prove there was once a man George Washington? Or it that untrue without proof?
So is Evolution :-), dinosaurs, lice growing from Eggs, or many other “unacceptable” Hashkafas.
I can prove there was a George Washington (for example, he signed the constitution, which is still available for viewing today). Can you prove anything?
Saying “It is a fact” is equal to saying “I have no proof”.
Prove there was a Persian Empire.
If *you* can’t prove it, they never existed I suppose?
Health, and your fellow travelers, it’s time you learned that saying “everyone knows” or assuming that “everyone” thinks along the same lines and has the same blinkered and narrow perspective and sources that you do may be comforting, or self assuring, but it is simply a poor substitute for reporting facts or actually looking at sources. And it is further something that you should be aware of that everybody, whether pro or anti zionist, religious or secular, has an agenda.
I know that the Teimanim came from a pre modern subsistence existence in a hostile environment to a challenging economic and social situation in post 1948 Israel where everyone’s priority was having enough to eat and defending themselves from bloodthirsty neighbors bent on revenge for their defeat. It was a shock to the system for them and they did not have the communal infrastructure in place that European refugees had when they came from the DP camps.
Undoubtedly some of them turned away from observance. And, possibly, some of those in the secular majority were pleased to see it. But you are deluding yourself if you think that the tziyonim had more interest in or resources to devote to purposely erasing the religiosity of the Teimanim than they had in feeding and clothing them, putting a roof over their head, defending them, (and everyone else) and slowly building the country, a process that took more than 20 years. It is a false narrative built on smug self importance (if it is the way WE perceive it, then it must be true, and the way everyone else perceives it). SO please, demonstrate to me in legislative or regulatory policy from the period of 1949 through 1967, in FACTS, that you are right. IF you don’t have the evidence, don’t waste everyone’s time. If you do, and can show that it was aimed specifically at the Teimanim with the specific and singular intent to destroy their observance, I will concede the point.
The truth is that the chareidi population in Israel in the first twenty to thirty years of its existence was almost a complete political and social irrelevancy, an afterthought, and generally left to its own devices, for better or worse. It was only during the ascendancy of Begin and the Likud in the seventies that politics and policy started to pay attention.
By the way, you should find out about the the sad story of Yahia Jaradi and his family from Yemen, and what happened to them, if you want to talk about shmad.
Why did the Zionists forcibly cut off the peyos of the Teimani children against their parents will, and threaten to take away and institutionalize their children if they refused to cooperate and send their children to chiloni schools?
Prove there was a Persian Empire.
No problem. Herodotus (one of the first historians, and accepted by his peers) documented (in The Histories) many of the Greek-Persian wars, as well as much of the Persian Empire Kings (similar to our “Melachim”). If you want a Jewish source, how about Daniel?
Later Persian Empires (such as the Sassanids) are even easier. Procopius documented the fights of the Romans against the Persian Empire, as well as the Babylonian Talmud (there’s a source that even you would accept!)
How about coins of the Persian Empire that still exist?
zionists are bad.
zionists are bad.
🙂
An assumption. If it is a true assumption, then it’s a good reason.
Why did the Zionists forcibly cut off the peyos of the Teimani children against their parents will, and threaten to take away and institutionalize their children if they refused to cooperate and send their children to chiloni schools?
Prove it. Saying “The Gedolim said so” or anything printed by Neturi Karta/Satmer (I assume your “source”) is unacceptable, and will disqualify you from further debate. 🙂
Greatest. Assuming this happened, was it one or two or five people who insisted on doing such a terrible thing to advance their personal agenda, or was it articulated, legislated, and implemented policy of the state? That is the difference between individual wrongdoing and what you and your supporters call a “shmad”.
If you are making a blanket accusation about the state of Israel or the Zionist movement, at the time you are discussing they had institutions, including the Jewish agency and the knesset, and those institutions have ample documentary evidence of everything they did during that period. There are records of pretty much everything that was decided and done by the government and its institutions. Even secret things, and many authors have taken advantage of the access they have to records of policies, actions, courtcases, guidelines and laws to criticize the State for any number of things. I’m not asking you to reinvent the wheel. I’m telling you that if it happened, and it was policy, the evidence is in documentary form, so back up your assertions with facts.
GAW -“Prove it.”
yichusdik -Your posts are long-winded, but as long as they are -there isn’t a shred of truth in them.
You think you can rewrite history to defend Kofrim?
Anybody involved with Kiruv during the ’50’s will tell you that Tzionim did whatever they could to Shmad up Frum Jews!
Just one example of many:
From Mishpacha mag -J. Rosenblum writes -“No one would wish a return to the circumstances of the rescue work of the 1940s or to the situaton of the 1950s in Israel, when young Peylim activists spirited children from Arab lands out of Jewish Agency absorption camps, where they were being stripped of their Jewish identity.”
Unfortunately you & others aren’t interested in the truth!
Health, you obviously DO think you can rewrite history to support your agenda.
R’ Rosenblum is an ehrlicher yid, but did he demonstrate that he was discussing policy, legislation, or law? You have made the simple, understandable error of conflating a columnist, whose job it is to convey opinions, with a reporter, whose job it is to convey facts. I have no problem with R’ Rosenblum’s opinions, he is entitled to them, but he is not a reporter. So you are using an opinion, an unsubstantiated, non-footnoted tertiary source, as evidence.
I’m not trying to convince you of anything on this point. It’s the other way around. I said I would concede the point if you could show me that it was articulated, legislated policy for the government and its institutions to do what you claim, and that such law or regulation or legislation specifically targeted Teimanim, as you claimed. I am prepared to be corrected by facts, not by your overblown and frankly tiresome rhetoric. I may be longwinded, but at least I don’t say the same thing over and over and over again.
From Mishpacha mag
You call that an unbiased source?! You may as well have quoted Neturei Karta.
but at least I don’t say the same thing over and over and over again.
I do. Prove it!
Gavra: what, exactly, is an example of an “unbiased” source that discusses this issue?
Yichus, unlegislated grave sins against humanity and the Torah are no less severe than if they had been officially instituted.
GAW & yichusdik –
That’s your mistake -I wasn’t using him to prove anything. This wasn’t the point of his article. I was using him to prove that e/o knows what he posted. The reason you two don’t is because either you don’t want to know the truth or you’re too lazy to do the research. I’m related to a former Kiruv worker at that time and he said the same thing many times, as above, and that’s why they started these Kiruv orgs.!
I’m just not going to actually do the research for you because you two never concede -you two are too Noigeah B’dovor, so why should I waste my time proving it to you?
Denial isn’t just the name of a river in Egypt! People who want to know the truth can easily find out that the Israeli Jewish Agency Shmaded up many Jews; esp. the ones that came from arab lands during that time!
Gavra: what, exactly, is an example of an “unbiased” source that discusses this issue?
I don’t know (since I don’t have a source).
Evidence: Records of conversations held regarding the matter. (such as L’Havdil the the Wannsee Conference). Documentation that something actually happened from a first hand source, and published in a respected journal (not in a “magazine” that can’t print anything that doesn’t toe the party line). A picture. Even a number of first hand biographies would be circumstantial evidence that there was some sort of official policy. Physical evidence.
Conjecture: Third hand sources (like R’ Rosenblum saying so in the Jerusalem Post instead of Mishpacha). Saying “everyone knows” or “The Gedolim said so”.
Biased: Health saying “it is the truth!” (or anything, due to his personality). Neturei Karta. Joseph. Ahmadinejad.
I think that sums it up, if I missed anything, I apologize.
Look, I’ve also been taught that it happened, and I THINK it may have. But Health saying so B’derech Pashut and his “proofs” just irk me (and I’m sure many others as well). It’s just not Yashrus.
Do you have proof the Turks attempted genocide against the Armenians and the Crusaders against the Jews, or do you doubt their occurance?
GAW -“Look, I’ve also been taught that it happened, and I THINK it may have. But Health saying so B’derech Pashut and his “proofs” just irk me (and I’m sure many others as well). It’s just not Yashrus.”
It irks you because it is the TRUTH!
What’s not Yashrus is to lie, just to defend Tzionim/Kofrim!
Health: I’m very sorry that it is personal, but it is Pashut a Gemorah:
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And there is a reason why you are divorced. It comes out in the coffee room, I could only imagine how it came out in your home. 🙁
On that note, I feel that I can no longer discuss the topic with you, as I am “biased”, and you will be “biased” against me. If sushe or anyone else wishes to discuss, I would be more than happy to do so.
Do you have proof the Turks attempted genocide against the Armenians and the Crusaders against the Jews, or do you doubt their occurance?
The Turks? Yes. Google “armenian genocide”. I’ve also quoted here to that effect from others.
The Crusaders? Not offhand, but I’m sure I could find if I looked. Why?
Got it (for the crusaders) from Wikipedia (assuming that it says what it claims to): Article: “Persecution of Jews in the First Crusade”.
Salo Wittmayer Baron (1957). Social and Religious History of the Jews, Volume 4. Columbia University Press.
Kinos, if you need that, but I wouldn’t consider it “proof” in the standard sense.
Therefore, the very learning and teaching about how the State of Israel is a Gzeriah Raah is itself Hashtadlus to disabuse ourselves of that Gezeirah Raah.
The Chazon Ish was referring to secularism. In fact, he told Ben-Gurion that the religious would eventually take over democratically due to their much higher birthrate. Other talmidei chachamim who saw the Return to Zion as the beginning of the Geula include Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Yehoshua Landau (Rabbi of Bnei Brak), Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank , Rav Y.M Tikochinski, Rav Zalman Sorotzkin (famed head of Va’ad Hayeshivot), Rav Yechezkel Sarna (Rosh Yeshiva of Chevron), Rav Shlomo Yosef Zevin, Rav Hillel Posek, Rav Unterman, R. Ovadia Hadaya (author of Resp. Yaskil Avdi) , the Husiaton Rebbe, and Rav Y. S. Kahanaman (Rosh Yeshivat Ponevitz – who flew the Israeli flag on Yom HaAtzmaut) .
Hah, Health, you made me laugh. You aren’t going to do the research for me! you don’t need to, I already have, and guess what? I haven’t found any regulation, legislation, or policy from the Israeli govt and the Jewish agency to do what you claim (shmad) BECAUSE THERE NEVER WAS SUCH A POLICY! Your circular logic is mind boggling. That’s why I said, show me evidence, (perhaps I missed something) and I will concede the point.
Oh, and by the way, If I am nogeyah b’dovor, what are you? objective?
Sushe, I responded to the accusation that a specific community (the Teimanim) were targeted and in an organised way, official bodies of the state and the Jewish agency determined policy and implemented it to “shmad” them. I asked for proof. It has not been forthcoming. I said I would not be surprised if on a small scale it did happen, on the twisted agenda of an individual or a few individuals, but I reiterated that if it was policy, as was claimed, there would be evidence. There has been none shown.
Again, the tzioni establishment in the 50’s had priorities that were way more pressing, needed much attention and most of the precious few resources available in Israel at the time. Instituting an agenda such as has been suggested here magnifies the relevance to and interest in the frumkeit of the population to a level it never achieved until the late 70’s. To put it bluntly, few tzionim cared very much if frum yidden stayed frum, got more frum, or less frum. Compared to their concerns about the economic crisis, the food shortages, the fedayeen, the border incursions, the labor unrest, the massive influx of people who needed food, clothing, and shelter, it simply wasn’t important to them. Perhaps this is what bothered the people Health spoke with so much – being rejected as an irrelevancy rather than a necessity. And it is a shame, truly, because I believe Israel would be a better place, in every way, if it had made imbuing that generation with our heritage a priority.
And I notice none of the apologists for those who arrogated the “right” to “import” Jews from Teiman to keep them from the tziyonim has touched the issue of the tragic story of the Jaradi family. Figures.
gavra_at_work -“Health: I’m very sorry that it is personal,”
I didn’t take anything personal, even though you did!
“but it is Pashut a Gemorah:
?”? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????
And there is a reason why you are divorced. It comes out in the coffee room, I could only imagine how it came out in your home.”
You resort to rank outs because you can’t defend your beloved Tzionim. I got news for you – maybe people who aren’t married are unhappy, but there are plenty of married people who are Reshayim!
“On that note, I feel that I can no longer discuss the topic with you, as I am “biased”, and you will be “biased” against me. If sushe or anyone else wishes to discuss, I would be more than happy to do so.”
Exactly since you are biased -why should I bother proving anything to you? You most certainly won’t accept it!
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