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Whoa, what’s with all this ganging up against (the bearer of) an inconvenient truth (or truths)?
First, it is important to distinguish between what, on the one hand, is/was halachicly correct and, on the other, what can be done given the present reality.
Regarding the latter, there is no question that the State of Israel exists and that since they have (foolishly) assumed responsibility (sad as that has been) for so many of our brethren, they cannot simply pack their bags. As well, the State of Israel is the only country who cannot (and does not) claim “to the victor go the spoils”, and this is a black mark on the nations of the world. This is clear.
However, it is just as, if not even more, important to know the truth and what is right and what is wrong, EVEN IF PRESENT REALITY DICTATES A DIFFERENT APPROACH. Zionism was, is, and likely always will be, a major disaster for OUR people. This is indisputable, regardless of the ability to visit the kosel and whatever other chasdei Hashem we are blessed with that are “benefits” of having a State of Israel. The war miracles and other tired arguments are all irrelevant in asserting Zionism was a priori correct. It was not and only proves that more and more as time goes on.
The Zionists have inflamed the Arabs (and others in the world, EXACERBATING Esav Sonei LiYaakov) to hate us FAR, far more than they ever did. They were always Pereh Adam, and never loved us (though they did revere the Baba Sali and stood reverently for him when he passed in the streets). This doesn’t excuse their behavior at all, and the Arabs are still 100% at fault for every drop of blood they savagely spilled. But the Zionists are still far from blameless.
Trying to justify Zionism with “Esav Sonei LiYaakov” is absurd as breaking down a fence to fight a pit bull based on a rationale that the pit bull is violent anyways…so might as well seek to fight it?
Which is precisely why the smart thing to do was to do what we’ve always done in galus, and which has B”H, sustained us through today and will continue to do so, BE”H, until Beas Goel Tzedek BB”A, which is to lay low and NOT fight neither Eisav nor Yishmael, unless CH”V compelled to do so. The Zionists did not and do not care what the cost was as long as it furthered their agenda of gaining a State and keeping that State, and post-Jewish, CH”V, as well.
Most gedolim, including the Chofetz Chaim who died well before the State of Israel was established, knew and publicly made known that Zionism was and is a disaster.
Next, this is not a “Satmar shita”. It is reality, and it is also what most every gadol held prior to the State’s founding. Once the State was founded, some gedolim said to deal with the egel hazahav that has been hatched. But the position did not change, just the method of dealing with the reality at hand. Zionism was and is just as anti-halacha now as it was before the State’s founding.
It is painfully obvious that Jews would have been far better off without Zionism. That is, it is obvious if you are objective and read up on the history of the matter and open your eyes to the events of recent history.
I hope that clarifies matters, though it seems some have the wool of Zionist fallacy and fantasy pulled way too tightly over them.
HaKatan +1
If ????? ??? and ?? ?????? ??? ?????? are too difficult, you can get ?????? ????? ????? ???. If you don’t read Hebrew, “The Rebbe” (a biography of Satmar Rav Zt”l) has a fine chapter on this issue.
On the contrary, although the Chafetz Chaim obviously opposed secularism he supported the essence of Zionism in his time: buying land in EY and making aliya (Letters to his son Reb Ayeh Leb HaCohen pg. 43-44). The Gra, Chatam Sofer, Netziv, Avnei Nezer, Sefat Emmet and Ohr Sameach (who contributed to the JNF) also supported the essentials of Zionism.
It is a postive mitzva to establish a state as has already been proven here. This is a milchemet mitzva (obligatory war) as set forth explicitly by Ramban (Rambam apparently includes it in the mitzva of living here). The rest is up to succeeding generations.
Avi K. — I am not at all disagreeing that we must give tremendous thanks to Hashem for Nissim that saved Jewish lives and enabled us access to Mekomos Kedoshim. Throughout history individual communities have commemorated yeshuos that came when various dangers have faced them. I am just questioning if a yeshua (or any miraculous success) indicated someone is doing the right thing. Do you have a source for your statement that a Chazaka of yeshuos indicates that ones behavior is correct? I know for certain that in individual life this is definitely NOT the case!!! (I once heard from a Rosh Yeshiva with regard to a completely different topic that if things are going remarkably smoothly on a project that is usually a reason to take a closer look that everything is Yosher, as when real Avodas Hashem is occurring the Satan tries very hard to make it difficult!)
Mod 72 — Although I agree with the bulk of what you are saying, I don’t believe that “aisav sonai as Yaakov” means we don’t need to look at our own behaviors. Chazal have very clear instructions as to how we should behave in galus. They don’t say “well, they hate us anyway, so just do what you want.” We are specifically told to take a low profile in galus, not to antogonize the goyim, etc. Again, I am not addressing whether or not the creation of the medina falls into this — I am not an expert on the topic.
Additionally, it is interesting to note that historically Jews have gotten along much better with the Arabs (who technically are not benei aisav) than the Christians. Obviously there were plenty of rough times, but many of the communities in the Middle East (such as those in Iran and Iraq) were actually there in relative stability since Churban Bayis Rishon! This is in stark contrast to the constant expulsions and worse the Jews throughout most of Europe faced. It was only really post WWII that things became so bad in these countries and the communities began to leave.
This happens to be one of the strong arguments against the whole concept of the “Palestinian refugee” issue — since the creation of Medinat Yisroel, as many Jewish “refugees” were forced out of their homes in Arab countries as the number of Arabs who left their homes in Israel. The difference is that Israel absorbed these Jews into their country, while the Arab countries made sure to keep these “Palestinians” separate to perpetuate the complaint.
Finally, my personal feeling is (no source for this, just my thoughts) that whatever the proper Hashkafa is with regard to the Zionists and the state of Israel, I have tremendous Hakaras Hatov to the rank and file soldiers who are putting their lives on the line to protect other Jewish lives — including my family. When we lived in Chutz L’Aretz I had appreciation for the U.S. military, how much more so I daven that Hashem should protect the young Jewish soldiers who are doing their hishtadlus for our security.
@writersoul: Please stop twisting my words.
@HaKatan: I stand behind what you wrote by 100%.
HaKatan, 1) Yishmael is not Eisav (vis-a-vis “Halochah hi be’yadua…”);
2) How was Zionism a major disaster?
3) Where did Chafets Chaim harshly condemn them? In fact, his son wrote in his father’s name that Zionism ” metaher es ha’tmeim ve’ metame es ha’thorim”.
Please, clarify.
And do not tell me about taking Yidden off the derech — most of them would have been there anyway.
“The Zionists have inflamed the Arabs (and others in the world, EXACERBATING Esav Sonei LiYaakov) to hate us FAR, far more than they ever did”.
So how do you explain the countless mass murders, terrorist acts and slaying of innocents before the State existed…
BS”D
Zionism is not diiferent than any other “Ism” (Communism, Evolutionism, Capitalism, Charadism, MOism, etc.) that takes one away from the goal of Avodas Hashem and Kiddush Shem Shomayim. It is when the system becomes more important than the results.
The issue with the Medina is “Having a Medina at all costs”, which is Zionism. One has to remember that the goal is not the system.
That all being said, Avi K., M in Israel, & HaKatan are all correct. The Gedolim before the war were (mostly) against Zionism as the system took away from Avodas Hashem and made “The State of Israel” into the goal. That does not mean they were not “Loving EY” and settling the land, but they did not make it the end all.
That also has nothing to do with the current Satmer Shitta, that “the state” is Assur. One can be part of the state while not fully suscribing to “the system” (as most Israelis do at this time as well).
to HaKatan and others: please tell me where it says that we should “lay low and not fight esav or yishmael ” ‘at bias goel zedek”.
The rambam clearly disagreed with this (see hilchos melichim”…the tannaim clearly disagreed with this (see rabbi akiva and bar kochva”) , and going back to ezra and nechemia clearly disagreed with this….
Hakatan- I agree with everything you say , but this:
“Regarding the latter, there is no question that the State of Israel exists and that since they have (foolishly) assumed responsibility (sad as that has been) for so many of our brethren, they cannot simply pack their bags.”
Who says? Maybe the Turks will take it, if offered?
They never hated Jews and until recently they even liked the State of Israel.
Avi K -“On the contrary, although the Chafetz Chaim obviously opposed secularism he supported the essence of Zionism in his time: buying land in EY and making aliya (Letters to his son Reb Ayeh Leb HaCohen pg. 43-44). The Gra, Chatam Sofer, Netziv, Avnei Nezer, Sefat Emmet and Ohr Sameach (who contributed to the JNF) also supported the essentials of Zionism.
It is a postive mitzva to establish a state as has already been proven here. This is a milchemet mitzva (obligatory war) as set forth explicitly by Ramban (Rambam apparently includes it in the mitzva of living here). The rest is up to succeeding generations.”
These Mitzvos are just that – Mitzvos. This is not what these Rabbonon supported -namely secular Zionism. Can’t you see the difference? The Gedolim from the previous generation did. They – like the Chofetz Chaim said you have to keep away from secular Zionism. Stop defending these Kofrim with what Dinim apply to the land of EY!
rabbiofberlin -“to HaKatan and others: please tell me where it says that we should “lay low and not fight esav or yishmael ” ‘at bias goel zedek”.
The rambam clearly disagreed with this (see hilchos melichim”…the tannaim clearly disagreed with this (see rabbi akiva and bar kochva”) , and going back to ezra and nechemia clearly disagreed with this..”
Your post is just a red herring. You have learned Chumash. And Rashi says that the reason why Yaakov did the three things (to Esav) in that order -ya know first presents, etc., is because this is how Klal Yisroel has to deal with the Goyim in Golus. But you knew this, but you just are trying to use the Torah to defend secular Zionism. Bad idea!
Who says? Maybe the Turks will take it, if offered?
They never hated Jews and until recently they even liked the State of Israel.
Hahaha. Until recently!
And maybe the next step is hatred? Didn’t think of that, did u?
Or maybe after it’s given to Turkey they will give it to the “Palestinians” who will be able to make Israel Judenrein, in whatever manner they choose.
What brilliance!
Abelleh -“Oh, and that was not my idea. The whole idea that the Balfour Declaration exempts us from the Shvuah that we took (assuming that you do in fact think that shvuah is halchickly binding, even though the Rambam, Tur, and Shulchan Aruch don’t assume that way) is no longer applicable, wasn’t even my idea. It was the Ohr Sameach’s idea. You want to insult me for not knowing my history, well I can’t condone that. But you want to insult the Ohr Sameach?! No… that doesn’t fly.”
Whoa -Calm down. Did you mention anywhere in your post about the 3 Shavous? Did you mention anything about the Ohr Someach? (Yea you mentioned something about a letter -which I don’t even know what it says in this letter!)
If you look at my post to you I quote on top what part of your post I’m responding to.
From me explaining you the history you jumped to I’m insulting the Ohr Someach! Sorry – you accusing me of all these things -won’t FLY!
HaKatan: How do you explain the large number of Gedolim that said Hallel for the State’s founding in 1949?
Abelleh’s point is even stronger. Chazal praised Herod’s renovations of the Beish Hamikdash, even though they only came about after Herod felt bad for killing all of the Talmidei Chachamim that he could.
Gavra-
Zionism is not diiferent than any other “Ism” (Communism, Evolutionism, Capitalism, Charadism, MOism, etc.) that takes one away from the goal of Avodas Hashem and Kiddush Shem Shomayim.
You left out Juda-ism.
Abelleh -“Health: It’s a machlokas whether establishing a Madina is a mitzva Di’Oraisah. The Ramban says yes; the Rambam says no. HOWEVER, KOLEI ALMA LO PLIGEA THAT ONCE WE HAVE A MADINA YOU CAN’T GIVE IT UP!”
Of course you can give it up! The only reason the Gedolim were against giving it up was because they were so scared that if given to the arabs -that they would take revenge. If you find a country that Jews blood won’t be spilt -why can’t you give it up?
Turkey likes Jews, not Zionists though!
Abelleh -“Health: When Herod made the Beis Hamikdash,”
What are you talking about? When did Herod make a Bais Hamikdash?
Sam2 -“Abelleh’s point is even stronger. Chazal praised Herod’s renovations of the Beish Hamikdash, even though they only came about after Herod felt bad for killing all of the Talmidei Chachamim that he could.”
So you’re saying they liked him because he renovated the BH?
I don’t think so!!!
Did you ever hear of Teshuva? When have the Tzionim done Teshuva?
“So how do you explain the countless mass murders, terrorist acts and slaying of innocents before the State existed…”
The State has existed since 1948;
but Zionism has existed since approximately 1897.
Gavra-
Zionism is not diiferent than any other “Ism” (Communism, Evolutionism, Capitalism, Charadism, MOism, etc.) that takes one away from the goal of Avodas Hashem and Kiddush Shem Shomayim.
You left out Juda-ism.
You’re right. Add it to the list. If Judaism gets in the way of your Avodas Hashem and becomes the end instead of a means, that is also a problem.
computer777 -“Hahaha. Until recently!
And maybe the next step is hatred? Didn’t think of that, did u?”
No, you are wrong. They only hate Zionists, not Jews, and I for one am not a zionist!
“Or maybe after it’s given to Turkey they will give it to the “Palestinians” who will be able to make Israel Judenrein, in whatever manner they choose.”
This will obviously have to be arranged with guarantees from Nations of the world!
“What brilliance!”
MODS -another double standard. You deleted my response, but you let through his insult.
JaneDoe18…”but Zionism has existed since approximately 1897.”
I didn’t know Anti Semitism began in 1897 with the birth of Zionism…I guess my history books that talk about the inquisition and expulsion from just about every European country were wrong…my bad!
Chassidishe Gatesheader: I only meant in the sense that you agreed with Health on that post. Sorry.
Health: I have a whole megillah of stuff I want to say, but I’ll keep it short.
First of all, I’m not trying to push a Zionist agenda. I don’t have a Zionist agenda, and I’d appreciate if you’d stop twisting my words to that effect.
Second of all, I apologize if I misunderstood you. I understand now that you meant that you blamed the past Zionists, not the current ones.
However, what do you want to do now? Give Israel to Turkey? (not Iran— I stand corrected.) Why would that be a good idea? Perhaps they USED TO like Israel but who says that will hold?
And why Turkey anyway? Just curious. Why not some other (at least relatively) more reliable country?
Whether we like the status quo or not, is there any other PRACTICAL thing we can do to help the situation besides davening for the well-being of our brothers and sisters of ALL different backgrounds?
That was my point in the first place. Nothing more. I’m sorry that it escalated like it did.
if two people are eating matzoh, one because it tastes yummy and one cuz its the night of the year when its an asseh, which one is praiseworthy? not the guy whos movement placed values outside of judaism before it. The torah is what allows us to be called a nation;a mechalel shabbos has a din of a goy. one who eats latkes on chanukah and cheesecake on shavuos and drives on shabbos isnt considered jewish. treif love of land, and placing personal values cloaked in frum disguises, and presenting them as torah-true hashkafos, as much as you wish it would, doesnt make the idea right. granted, we are at a point in history (or past it) where the chazon ish said that maybe the Chasam Sofer could come up with the eitzah to get out of it, but the idea is kochi bi’otzem yodi;its treif.
mikehall12382 “So how do you explain the countless mass murders, terrorist acts and slaying of innocents before the State existed…”
“I didn’t know Anti Semitism began in 1897 with the birth of Zionism…I guess my history books that talk about the inquisition and expulsion from just about every European country were wrong…my bad!”
I was speaking about the terrorism in Eretz Yisroel,
not in the rest of the world.
MODS -another double standard. You deleted my response, but you let through his insult.
I really don’t mean to insult you. but what you are suggesting is beyond the pale of logic.
No, you are wrong. They only hate Zionists, not Jews, and I for one am not a zionist!
Pure nonsense. Prove it. You can’t.
Even if they were lovers of Jews (which they are certainly not) one can NEVER trust other nations.
Remember this story:
Happened too many times! I can tell you of individuals who married goyim and were turned in by their loving spouses in germany. I can tell you tons of stories of beloved Jewish advisers who were thrown into prison for love turning to hate.
This will obviously have to be arranged with guarantees from Nations of the world!
Oh sure. Perhaps the United Nations will handle it. They love Israel and the Jews.
writersoul -“However, what do you want to do now? Give Israel to Turkey? (not Iran— I stand corrected.)”
Yes.
“Why would that be a good idea?”
Why not?
“Perhaps they USED TO like Israel but who says that will hold?”
Read my post to computer 777.
“And why Turkey anyway? Just curious. Why not some other (at least relatively) more reliable country?”
Turkey treated the Jews quite nicely in Palestine before WW 1.
A lot better than the British did.
computer777 -“I really don’t mean to insult you. but what you are suggesting is beyond the pale of logic.”
Hey I agree with you and insult people. So I understand why you insulted me. But recently the Mods don’t let me post even a small insult. So they can’t treat me one way & others a different way -this is a double standard.
“Pure nonsense. Prove it. You can’t.”
Prove what? That Hashem will never let any Goy touch us again? Sorry, can’t do that -I’m not a Navi!
“Even if they were lovers of Jews (which they are certainly not) one can NEVER trust other nations.”
Really? So how do Jews right now survive in many countries around the world? How many Jews were killed on purpose in the US the last 50 years? And how many Jews were killed on purpose in Israel in the last 50 years?
“Happened too many times! I can tell you of individuals who married goyim and were turned in by their loving spouses in germany. I can tell you tons of stories of beloved Jewish advisers who were thrown into prison for love turning to hate.”
So what do you think the moral of these stories are? Ok -let me guess. That we should arm ourselves to the hilt and fight the 70 nations with our “Koach V’ozem Yodi”, right?
How about this? We should keep the Torah & the Mitzvos and do Teshuva and Hashem will bring the Geulah? And even if he doesn’t want to right now, at least it will most likely protect us against their violence towards us. Simple concept, no?
M, I heard the opposite. The Satan tries to confuse us as to what we should do (hint, hint) but if we are doing what Hashem wants He helps us. My source in the menatime is a logical mind (sevara). Bli neder I will look for a prior source but I think that it is fairly obvious. Hashem controls the world – including the Satan. The Satan is only there to give us free choice. In any case there is a mitzva to conquer and settle EY according to all of the Rishonim (Pitchei Teshuva 75:6). See “Kol haTor” of Rabbi Hillel Shklover (one of the talmidei haGra who made aliya) that this and the physical building of EY is the job of Mahiach ben Yosef.
Health: don’t worry. There are likely many posts addressed to you that are deleted.
you: No, you are wrong. They only hate Zionists, not Jews, and I for one am not a zionist!
me: Pure nonsense. Prove it. You can’t.
you: Prove what? That Hashem will never let any Goy touch us again? Sorry, can’t do that -I’m not a Navi!
Why do you answer questions with answers that have nothing to do with the question? Obviously I wanted you to prove that turks hate zionists and not jews.
1)Living in Eretz Yisrael is a big mitzva. 2)Supporting an anti-God, anti-Torah government is a big aveira. 3)Living in Eretz Yisrael today supports an anti-God, anti-Torah government(directly or indirectly). Conclusion: Living in Eretz Yisrael today is a mitzva haba’ah b’aveira. If someone already lives there he might be allowed to stay since it is very difficult to uproot oneself from one’s country. All the Gedolim that Avi K. mentions supported the Yishuv of Shomrei Torah in Eretz Yisrael and they all lived prior to the founding of the state. The state of israel is Churban Eretz Yisrael not Yishuv Eretz Yisrael. Mods, please allow this through. This is a Torah disscussion and this view should be considered. Thank you very much.
Longarkel, hevel verik.
1. The government has faults but is not anti-Tora and/or anti-Gd.
2. Living in EY oppposes the forces of secularism by denying them a free hand. Becoming a citizen and voting helps to improve things.
Abelleh -“Health: You don’t know the reasons that the Gedolim (whoever these Gedolim that you speak of are) are against living in Eretz Yisrael.”
I never talked about living there -I talked about being a Tzioni that supports a Frei gov.! I do know the reasons and there are many. A big one is the Tzionim based their Medina on Kefira!!!
“Yes, Herod made the Second Beis Hamikdash.”
So what? Was he building it for Hashem or for himself?
The Tzionim made this Medina for themselves, not for Hashem whom they don’t believe in.
Abelleh: No, Herod rebuilt Bayit Sheni.
9th Grade Historia 101: Ezra and Nechemia built it. Later on, Herod was horrible to the Jews, and killed many chachamim. Then he went to Bava ben Buta, who was blind, and tried to trick him into telling Lashon Hara about him (Herod). Bava ben Buta refused, and Herod decided that if talmidei chachamim are this honest he shouldn’t have killed them. He asked what he could do to atone, and Bava ben Buta told him to rebuild Bayit Sheni so it would be more elegant.
This didn’t make Herod good. He was still horrible to the Jews after that.
Health: I quote: when asked why we should give Israel to Turkey, you said, “Why not?”
Why not go swimming in the Arctic Ocean? Why not drink spoiled milk? Why not go into Times Square (or Thirteenth Avenue) and play the tuba while balancing on a unicycle? A) because it’s ridiculous and B) because it’s dangerous. Just because Turkey was good to Israel in 1918 doesn’t mean they will be now. In 1918 Turkey was under the Ottoman Empire— in 1923 Mustafa Kemal Ataturk launched a full-scale secular revolution in Turkey. That was still 90 years ago. The country has been getting more religious in recent years, and it’s been targeted as a potential trouble spot as far as Israeli relations go.
Things change in different countries.
Bear in mind, too, that Israel was a totally different thing then. There had never been a state, the Ottoman Empire had owned it for centuries, etc.
In short, I repeat, why Turkey?
Computer777 -“you to prove that turks hate zionists and not jews.”
Do you read the News? Until a few months ago they even liked Israelis, until the incident with their ship. They were allies. They treated the Jews quite well when they controlled Palestine. So the hatred to even Zionists is quite recent. There is no reason to carry this over to all Jews. Zionism IS NOT Judaism!
Avi K -“1. The government has faults but is not anti-Tora and/or anti-Gd.”
Maybe they aren’t Anti, but they have no regards for Frum people and accommodating them to keep the Torah. The most recent example is not letting soldiers leave when women are singing. You just are Naive & believe everything that Zionists say. It’s not discrimination on women to have men walk out during singing. Discrimination would be Not letting them sing at all. The only ones whom the Zionists are discriminating against are the Frum soldiers!
“2. Living in EY oppposes the forces of secularism by denying them a free hand. Becoming a citizen and voting helps to improve things.”
You don’t know this for a fact -they are still the majority. I can tell you one thing -if they force all Frum males to go to the army -a lot of Frum Jews will move out of EY. This will make the Tzionis lose the only real protection that they have -namely Men sitting and learning Torah all day!
abe- i dont understand you. Why cant i fulfill all the mitzvos that you say the rishonim list about living in and building EY and still be a strong opponent of zionism? why do you NEED to identify with the movement? the cultural, torah free, secular movement. let me not hold of the zionists and still hold of mitzvos! So why do you feel the utter need to identify?!
“The government has faults, but is not anti-Torah and/or anti-Gd.”
What about not letting soldiers leave when women are singing?
What about allowing a gay pride parade and allowing cremation of dead bodies?
What about the over 8,000 body parts currently being held in the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute, taken in illegal autopsies, where body parts and tissue samples were taken from bodies after families prohibited a post-mortem?
JaneDoe: The only thing I will say is that not following Halachah isn’t necessarily anti-Torah. I don’t think that even the staunchest Religious Zionist would claim that the Medinah follows Halachah. At least, they couldn’t reasonably claim that.
writersoul -“Health: I quote: when asked why we should give Israel to Turkey, you said, “Why not?”
In short, I repeat, why Turkey?”
Read my post to computer 777. This answers your question.
Abelleh -“No matter what the reason for the Tzionim being pro-Israel are, you still need to support it.”
Why? Give me a reason acc. to Torah.
“With that said, they are not kofrim.”
Most Tzionim are Kofrim.
“Rav Schachter is the biggest zionist in the western hemisphere. Is he a kofer?”
There are exceptions to every rule!
“There are many people who are zionist. If some are kofrim (I, not having met any kofer-tzioni people, have no right to suggest that some exist.”
And almost all of them (zionists) are Kofrim. Zionists make up a good portion of the Israeli population. As far as I know the demographics of Israel has Not yet changed and most of the pop. are Frei & Kofrim!
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