What’s Our Response to Environmentalists.

Here’s what you do: use as much plastic as you possibly can. Get as much plastic residue and microplastics into your body and your young children. I mean you don’t want your kids having healthy brains because they might start to think and possibly be concerned about the air they breathe and the food and water they consume. No, it’s much safer to just fill them up with plastic while you still can and so they won’t have healthy minds capable of rational thought. What could possibly be wrong with plastic? I mean, it just goes to a landfill and stays there right? It definitely doesn’t reenter our water and food supplies, and certainly doesn’t break into microplastics and fill the air. That would be insane!

Go show those libs!

My response is that I have one garbage can that everything goes into. I’ve never recycled.

Our response is: ledidi, the passuk tells us in bereishis 8:22 that Hashem will control the climate for eternity but ledidaichu, at least be moideh to the fact that science tells us that the world is billions of years old and has always had hot streaks and cold streaks, hot climates and ice ages, many of which happened long before humans were even present so what makes you think that all of those climate changes over the millions and millions of years were natural and humans had no power to cause it or prevent it but THIS one is different?

Our response in galus is to shut up. If a Jew (religious or not) asks what Judaism says about it then bring Torah sources to the best of your ability. If you don’t know any go to Aish.com or any reputable website that gives sources.

Rocky, unfortunately many online forums, particularly of the kiruv variety, traffic in misinformation, to use a modern term.

Aish is extremely zionistic, moreso than mainstream israeli news outlets. It’s actually very embarrassing for us, because a jewish student who is disillusioned with zionism when they learn about der yassin and the other atrocities of the secular zionists, then they see “Orthodox judaism” whitewashing it… it’s doing us no favors.

Kiruv places like to quote the same ridiculous “proof” of environmental activism that the RCA used years ago. Chazal say that Hashem took Adam all around gan eden and said “look how beautiful my creations are, take heed not to ruin my world”

Do you know who has ever taken that medrash to mean physical destruction or pollution?

You guessed it – zero.

The seforim, including the ramchal and maharal, say it means that we shouldn’t destroy the world through sin.

All throughout chazal and tanach, the one destructive force is sin. Not pollution. Not aerosols. Not greenhouse gasses.

To say that these non-sinul entities destroy the world is like saying that the Holocaust happened because of mikrah, just nature.

It’s apikorsus and denial of Hashem’s hashgocha, and denying that it is sin and mitzvos which benefit and destroy the world. Not what kind of car you drive.

I wonder why Jewish people have such a strong bias against environmentalism?

Shimon Nodel,

Just curious why you assume that concern about microplastics and other toxins is a liberal issue?

Shimon, the liberals often create new environmental issues when they try to restrict the use of one material by replacing it with others. They can’t do anything right. Ok don’t use fuel so use more batteries instead. It’s narish.

Quay,

For the same reason so many Jews are “biased” against the animal rights movement. From its outset, many in the environmentalist leadership have pursued the “rights of mother earth” (a Greek Goddess) with a dogma crosses the line into religious extremism. It’s one thing to feel a sense of responsibility towards Hashem’s creations but another to believe they have rights superseding those of humanity.

We should of course care about the state of the olam haze that Hashem created for us. There are a lot of non-controversial things that we do: do not things away, fruit trees, city layout, not damaging property.

The problem start with philosophies that make hard-to-prove claims that require, somehow, for money to flow from us to them. So, it then becomes entirely possible to pursue these goals at the expense of simple things we are required to do. Say, decrease population or at least have less kids to save the planet; close down nuclear and coal powerplants to increase dependency on Arabs and Russians.

Bottom line, we are for environment – goodm healthy Jewish environment.

So instead of plastic straws let’s destroy all the trees to make paper straws which last maybe one drink before falling apart and then we all have less oxygen and food. Do you liberals think these ideas through before blindly following? Liberals don’t do anything right.

aaq, the apikorsus, unadulterated anathema of yiddishkeit that you so nonchalantly throw around, about decreasing the population in order to help the environment, made me make a double-take. You start out with mitzvos of bal tashchis…and you end up with denying the mitzvah of lesheves yatzarta and le’erev al tanach yadecha?!!?!?!?

it is a mitzvah to have as many children as possible after fulfilling the minimum, chazal say this explicitly. the torah is NOT concerned with limited resources, because “hayad Hashem tiktzar?”

And to prove it in physical terms that you might be more agreeable with in your heresy, scientists predicted mass famine if the population continued to increase in the 1960s.

Well, the population more than doubled in the worldf since then…and guess what? There’s less world hunger now than ever before in recorded history!!! That’s Hashem’s way of showing how twisted, evil and anti-life the people are who subscribe to your heresy.

Avira > that we have the ability to destroy or help it without it being Hashem’s will.

this is nothing new and applies to everything. We go into business and deal with people whose only goal is money, into medicine where everyone feels they are in charge of health. So, you first make sure that your motivation is correct, protect yourself from bad influence, and then try to make them see the better side.

> the people are who subscribe to your heresy.

cool down. As I said I am for environment, for good Jewish environment.

It’s not proven?? That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard recently. The evidence is all around and literally in front of you. Take your head out of your artscroll gemara for one moment

Shimon, if there’s something in the world that requires me to get ky head out of a gemara, the dvar Hashem, and enter into the words of goyim reshoim, then I’d rather have my head in the gemara for as long as I’m able to, and I don’t have to worry about the tzar ham’nabayach, barking screaming evil doers who want there to be less life and who think that they control the world, for better or worse.

As for evidence, when i was a kid, the scientists were saying that in 10 years, coastal cities would be submerged, there would never be any snow, and in 20 years life would all be destroyed. They made so many predictions that at least some of them happened, so they can point to them, ignore their false claims, and say “look, we were right!” And the masses gobble up their nonsense.

I find this whole conversation funny as frankly many of the ideas “environmentalists” want to enact are beneficial regardless of whether climate change is or is not an issue.

What type of lunatic do you have to be to not want us to move off fossil fuels? The streets of our cities will be quieter and the air cleaner. The amount of respiratory related issues will decline. Many in the frum community have lost their marbles and are terrified over a vaccine, but breathing in partially combusted hydrocarbons that were buried at least since the ‘mabul’ is fine with them.

As to garbage… Where does all that garbage we produce go? It is not an easy job transporting it. If we can figure out a better way to handle garbage, such as better recycling and the like, it would save places like NYC lots of money. And for those who think you can just throw garbage in massive heaps with no consequence, clearly you have no idea what type of gasses this dumps exhaust and how they can impact groundwater. So as much as you think “environmentalists” are what is driving these things, you are clearly ignorant of the practical needs here as well.

As to plastics, etc… Have you considered the impact on water and fish populations? Perhaps environmentalists raised these issues first, but it is the practical reality that these resources need to be better managed to avoid shortages in the long-run that drives lots of the actual legislation.

FYI, you should all research some history about access to clean water in NYC. There were bodies of water used for drinking that were also used for various waste products with the end result is you had people getting sick. Issues like this led to development of water resources and served as a warning that you can’t simply ignore problems and hope they will go away themselves.

Emes the reality is like any other ideas that liberals push sound good at the surface but in reality they end up doing more harm than good for humanity.

Quayboardwarrior,

“I wonder why Jewish people have such a strong bias against environmentalism?”

It’s not environmentalism that engenders frum opposition per se, but rather the anti-humanism expressed by many so-called environmentalists under the guise of environmentalism. Separate the two successfully and you’ll find that the hostility drops considerably.

Huju. There are conservatives who might acknowledge that there’s data. If they support action they’re probably RINOs if anything or some other corporate hackery.

emes nisht sheker,

“I find this whole conversation funny as frankly many of the ideas “environmentalists” want to enact are beneficial regardless of whether climate change is or is not an issue.”

You perceive the notion that environmental policies are objectively beneficial to humanity as poshut, but actually this is one of the cruxes of the disagreement, so if you actually want to convince people instead of just insulting them to demonstrate your intellectual superiority, maybe tone down the laughter and hostility.

“What type of lunatic do you have to be to not want us to move off fossil fuels? The streets of our cities will be quieter and the air cleaner.”

The streets would be quieter and cleaner, and electric vehicles are certainly a better prospect than diesel, which Europe adopted en masse to reduce emissions, and are now dealing with the far more toxic exhaust in urban areas than gasoline emissions as a reward for their short-sightedness. However, electric cars are currently more expensive to produce and buy than conventional combustion based vehicles. Their reliability is perceived to be poorer. The distance they can travel before requiring recharging is shorter than the distance between each refueling of a conventional vehicle. Charging an electric vehicle takes longer than refueling a gasoline vehicle. So I’m not surprised that consumers who are already stressed by increasing costs and demands with decreasing time in the day for family, learning, and personal needs would feel resentful towards shaming, “nudging” or outright regulating (i.e., California) the purchase of vehicles that would increase the stress. For this to change, electric cars must become superior to conventional combustion cars. Then people will buy them!

Now move beyond the consumer perspective. Electric cars must be charged. This requires them to be plugged into power grids that are already decrepit, functionally obsolete, and overtaxed. When Californians hear that electric vehicles will be mandated, but the state cannot even provide sufficient electricity to its citizens over the summers right now, and we hear nothing of big plans to improve the power-supply infrastructure, why shouldn’t there be opposition?

Also, what impact on places such as Africa where the materials originate would the dramatic expansion of demand for large lithium based batteries have? When mandating electric vehicles, is California being a good global citizen by ensuring other places are not negatively impacted?

“breathing in partially combusted hydrocarbons that were buried at least since the ‘mabul’ is fine with them.”

Just curious – why did you put mabul in quotation marks?

“As to garbage… Where does all that garbage we produce go? It is not an easy job transporting it. If we can figure out a better way to handle garbage, such as better recycling and the like, it would save places like NYC lots of money.”

So demonstrate this benefit clearly and calmly to people. The current perception is that recycling has little overall benefit, as the material has to be transported long distances, much of it is ultimately landfilled anyway, and there are companies who are make a lot of money from recycling operations while those who are actively separating the materials see little benefit, e.g., reduced taxes or increased services from the supposed savings.

Avram, bechira allows a person to decide to do something, but does not allow it to happen unless it’s min hashomayim. There’s no other power besides Hashem in the world.

Avram – i hear you. Direct cause and effect, like dumping the garbage, is a good example, which begs a question..why does it natter what my decision is if it’s going to happen anyway? The answer is that it depends on whether or not the decision to do something falls in line with Torah. If the Torah says you’re not supposed to waste food by throwing it out the window, or that you’re not supposed to throw garbage out of a window indiscriminately, because there might be someone there, then a decision to do so would be a bechira decision against the Torah.

But are we commanded not to do actions which harm the environment? If we make smog and hurt people’s breathing, which is a visible, dirext consequence, like throwing garbage out of the window, then such a decision would be a bechira decision against the Torah. But as you said, the damage done would have happened anyway, and the only difference is in the judgement of those responsible.

This is like paroh’s claim to Hashem, that He decreed the jews would be slaves, so why is He mad at paroh? Hashem answered, who asked you to be the rasha to do it?

But for environmentalism as a movement, which believes that humans can hurt the environment or save it, we’d ask ourselves; does the Torah say anywhere to investigate things like the greenhouse effect and other things that climatologists say will ruin or damage the planet? The Torah places us as responsible for the well-being of ourselves and others, but does it ever say that we are to be tasked with protecting the world? Or is that something that we leave up to Hashem as we go about our lives living chayei tevel?

It would be similar to a scientific prediction that a meteor is about to hit earth in 25 years. Countries will start a space race to make colonies on the moon; does that mean a Torah jew should join the movement? No, because without a world, there can be no proper kiyum hamitzvos. We either accept that the world is ending, and do teshuva and daven, knowing that it is only in the hands of Hashem, or we deny it and say that the scientists are wrong.

Same thing here. My main problem is that frum jews who believe in the climate cult do not respond with calls to do teshuva and daven. Instead they think they can fix it on their own. I personally side wirh rav avigdor miller, who called the whole thing a left wing conspiracy. But i can definitely see room for a believing jew to accep their predictions – as long as the response is that of a jew dacing a gezerah min hashomayim.

The “only” problem with E-sts is that they mix up priorities making Earth into an idol, and in misusing lofty far-away goals in order to extract money frmo us today. Nothing new here. Christians, Communists, etc did the same

This is the age of the Moshiach and many hold the world will only exist 6,000 years. Thus, there is only 216 and a half years until the latest time for Moshiach to come and the end of the world as we know it.
There is nothing we can do, it is totally in the hands of G-d. Anything they do only creates more problems.