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“You aren’t pattur from mitzvos just because you’re frum. It’s a common misconception, but even frum people are chayav to keep the Torah. “
EXACTLY! That’s what I was ranting about above. NOBODY said not to keep the Torah but you don’t have to be lax in some mitzvos to keep other mitzvos. When people ARE saying that, rant away, but NOBODY HERE DID!!!!!!!! (those exclamation points are to attract ubiqs attention)
i must add, popa, that i was laughing a bit too loud reading some of those – while sitting in a parent meeting
Actually, the OP sounds like the other option is to ignore it and hope he notices it before anyone else does.
Maybe he… will realize in a few minutes?
His apartment is the very first one up the stairs. Unless someone was going up the stairs though, I do not think that his keys would be visible to anyone except the people coming and going on our floor of maybe 7 apartments, and the mailperson if there were any packages to deliver today.
I just skimmed through the responses on this thread. I think DY chopped the issue the best here:
“There is no clear rule for these things. It depends on who is person is. If youโre not comfortable, thereโs probably a good reason for that. Even if you are, maybe you shouldnโt be.”
The issue,(as I understand it), isn’t about halacha. It’s about comfort levels. When it comes to tznius, a lot of things are not black and white issues but rather are about comfort levels. Girls need to trust their feelings when it comes to tznius and shouldn’t be made to feel bad when they are uncomfortable with a particular situation.
Personally, I would have knocked on the door, but I’m not LB. It’s also possible that I’m wrong.
Yes, you are in fact wrong. Because you can’t avoid doing mitzvos just because you don’t feel comfortable.
Popa, I hope when your single daughter has this issue, she follows her instinct and doesn’t knock on the door of that creepy guy who keeps giving her weird looks in the elevator.
Dy, I hope your single daughters apt isn’t broken into br said creepy guy after she leaves her keys in the door, and because some frum guy was too frum to knock on her door.
So I guess the question is, are we talking about the creepy guy or the frum guy.
So I guess the question is, are we talking about the creepy guy or the frum guy.
That’s what I said. It depends who we’re talking about.
PBA – I meant that maybe I’m wrong for not feeling uncomfortable knocking on his door, which is why I didn’t tell LB to follow my example. Maybe my tznius sensitivities aren’t what they should be.
“So I guess the question is, are we talking about the creepy guy or the frum guy.”
This is the type of thing that a girl might not be able to put into those type of terms. She might feel uncomfortable in a certain situation but not willing to label the guy as creepy even to herself (even if he is). That is why she has to rely on her instincts.
Also, the guy doesn’t have to be creepy in order for it to be a problem. She is a single girl living next to a single guy. That situation is awkward and very b’dieved to begin with and necessitates extra gedarim.
It once happened to me that a single guy moved across the (very narrow) hallway from me. I was very uncomfortable even though I had no reason to think he was creepy. When I heard he was moving in, I decided that I wasn’t going to talk to him. When he moved in, I was hanging laundry outside and he started talking to me as he passed by. I tried not to be too friendly (while still being polite) so he would get the point.
This also could be about LB and not about the guy. Remember she is baalas teshuva and maybe she is trying not to talk to guys and maybe she feels she needs the extra gedarim. These are the kinds of things people have to figure out for themselves.
It’s not about avoiding Mitzvos. Tznius is also a Mitzvah. There are ofen contradictions between different Mitzvos or middos and in each situation a person has to figure out the right thing to do.
Tznius and Chesed often contradict each other since they are opposites in some ways. In some situations a person has to go with chesed and in some situations it would be assur to do chesed at the expense of tznius.
If a guy sits next to me on a bus, it is a lack of chesed to stand up and it risks embarrassing him, but most of the time it is the right thing to do (and I know that for a fact from experience). On the other hand, it has happened at least once that I didn’t get up and I think it was the right thing to do in that particular situation.
popa you’re acting likeย a total bozo, blinded by prejudices. Nobody said not to return keys. Anyone who recommended not knocking on the door gave other ways to make sure the keys are returned. If you want to hock about people being overly cautious at least stick with the facts.
It is not a mitzvah if it comprises someoneโs emotional and physical safety.
I am not sure that is backed by halacha…..anyone?
Syag – thank you for sharing your story. I found that very enlightening. I would never have thought twice about such a thing, but it shows that you really do have to be careful.
(Which, btw, is why I said that I might be wrong and didn’t think that LB should necessarily follow my example).
“Suppose you donโt have tefillin and only your neighborโs wife is home? You have to knock on the door, ask for the tefillin, and put them on. And deal with your nisyonos. You canโt not do mitzvos because you have nisyonos.”
If he really feels that it would be a problem for him, it is assur for him to knock on the door, and a bigger Mitzvah to skip putting on Tefillin. In this case, putting on Tefillin would be a “Mitzvah haba al yidei aveira”.
In this case, putting on Tefillin would be a โMitzvah haba al yidei aveiraโ.
Enter Lomdus Patrol in 5….4….3….2…1….
This is so weird – it will take me time to get used to this system – it is so strange to see all these blank comments awaiting moderation. I think I actually like it, but it will take getting used to!
“It is not a mitzvah if it comprises someoneโs emotional and physical safety.”
“I am not sure that is backed by halachaโฆ..anyone?”
Of course it is. ืืืื ืงืืืืื You are never (or at least rarely) supposed to do something that compromises your safety. That is something that I have asked sheilas about numerous times.
A therapist I know told me that she asks all her sheilas regarding her patients to a certain Rav who is known to be very machmir in general, and she is always surprised about his answers (he is usually very meikel in his answers to her). When she expressed surprise, he said that emotional health is very important.
My question was about making such a blanket statement. Iย believe it is not a general rule and each and every situation needs to be brought up as a shaila when it occurs. ย Stating it as a blanket statement can be wrongly misleading and I asked for sources that would confirm or refute that.
Enter Lomdus Patrol in 5โฆ.4โฆ.3โฆ.2โฆ1โฆ.
Yeah, that’s a misuse of the term. If he knows he’ll be nichshal, maybe he shouldn’t, but then he’s in a bad place.
It is not a mitzvah if it compromises someoneโs emotional and physical safety.
That’s not true. Even where one is pattur, such as a legitimate safety concern, there’s still a mitzvah, and one needs to find a safe way to do it.
I find it hard to imagine that such a situation is “emotionally unsafe”. It’s very easy to use “emotional safety” as a copout to avoid doing something which is difficult.
I could much more easily see this as a physical safety issue. Okay, so call the guy on the phone and tell him he left his keys in the door, and hang up quickly (but politely).
Is this thread about tznius or about safety? Those aren’t the same.
Syag, I don’t think we’re reading the same thread.
If he really feels that it would be a problem for him, it is assur for him to knock on the door, and a bigger Mitzvah to skip putting on Tefillin. In this case, putting on Tefillin would be a โMitzvah haba al yidei aveiraโ.
No, that’s not correct.
“Enter Lomdus Patrol in 5โฆ.4โฆ.3โฆ.2โฆ1โฆ.”
“Yeah, thatโs a misuse of the term. If he knows heโll be nichshal, maybe he shouldnโt, but then heโs in a bad place.”
I was assuming that we were talking about a situation where he knows he’ll be nichshal. And yeah, I agree he’s in a bad place. But otherwise, there would be no question.
I realized afterward I posted that I should have been more clear and I would have logged back on and clarified, but I didn’t have access to a computer until now.
But then again, I do try not to be judgmental about these things. I have friends whose husbands have hakpados that seem unnecessary and annoying to me, but I realized I can’t judge because I’ve never been a guy.
“My question was about making such a blanket statement. I believe it is not a general rule and each and every situation needs to be brought up as a shaila when it occurs. Stating it as a blanket statement can be wrongly misleading and I asked for sources that would confirm or refute that.”
It is a general rule that if helping someone else will seriously compromise someone’s well-being, they should not do it.
How and when to apply this depends on the specifics of the situation, and a sheilah should be asked in each case if possible and practical, and when it’s not possible or practical, the person has to use his judgment.
I would have made that last point clear, but I was afraid of using up my word- count ๐ , so I am trying to keep my posts more concise. I had also thought that it was clear because I think it wasalready mentioned in previous posts that this depends on the specific situation.
But I apologize if it wasn’t clear, and I hope it is now!
I actually just had a discussion about this concept with someone one Shabbos, and she brought up the point that it might be different regarding mothers.
Basically, there are different factors that would have to be weighed in each situation. One of them would be how damaging to the person it would be. And another would be what their responsibility in the situation is. There is a big difference between someone who has a responsibility or an obligation to the other person (such as a parent), and someone who is going out of his way to help someone out whom he is not specifically responsible for.
For example, I was very annoyed when I had a landlord who was refusing to talk to me (because I’m a girl) when I had to tell him that I had no water or I had to pay him the rent, etc. I thought that was ridiculous! If you don’t want to talk to a girl, don’t rent your apartment to her, but if you do, you can’t then refuse to talk to her!!!
So I made him talk to me, but he then he would constantly tell me how uncomfortable he was talking to me (which I thought was very inappropriate!)
I responded to your claim that it is not a mitzvah if there is emotional or physical safety involved, not if it needs to be done. The claim has been said to be incorrect and that was what I was concerned about. This last post is discussing what should or shouldn’t be done, that was not the subject of the question, it was the statement that it is not a mitzvah.
It’s the same thing. If it shouldn’t be done, it’s not a Mitzvah. “The claim has been said to be incorrect” When, where, and by whom was it said to be incorrect??!!!
@Popa: “Who says you have a right to be frum on yenemโs cheshbon? Suppose you donโt have tefillin and only your neighborโs wife is home? You have to knock on the door, ask for the tefillin, and put them on. And deal with your nisyonos. You canโt not do mitzvos because you have nisyonos.”
Without careful application of the ืขืฉื ืืืื ืื ืชืขืฉื dictum, you are not allowed to be oiver issurim in order to be mekayem mitzvos. (Regardless of ืืื ืฉืืช ืืืช ืืื ืฉืืงืืื ืฉืืชืืช ืืจืื.) The ends certainly do not justify the means. In your specific case – putting yourself in a situation of nisayon – the Gemara (BB 57b) classifies ืื ืืืืื ืืจืื ืืืจืื ื ืจืฉืข ืืื, ืื ืืืืื ืืจืื ืืืจืื ื ืื ืืก ืืื. This would (probably) be ืืืื ืืจืื ืืืจืื ื. (I don’t understand that Gemara at all, so I’m not sure I can apply it to cases other than the Issur Histaklus. I have not seen the Gemara bought down anywhere in Shu”a or Ramba”m. I would appreciate it if somebody could point to a source which brings down a halachic distinction of Leka Darka Achrina)
But in any other case, to be oiver an issur is absolutely NOT permitted in order to be mekayem a mitzvah. And if you are aware that it isn’t a nissayon but is an issur, then you would not be permitted to do the mitzvah.
“I donโt understand that Gemara at all”
What don’t you understand about it?
You are correct for distinguishing between a nisayon and an issur. In all of our above cases, we were talking about nisyonos and not issurim.
However, I also don’t think the case in the Gemara (as I understand it) is similar to our cases. In the case of the Gemara, it is referring to the issur of histaklus which can bring someone to a nisayon, but is not necessarily a nisayon for the particular person.
I have heard of a teshuva from Rav Moshe Feinsten regarding a man who has to sit next to or near untzniusly dressed women on the way to work. He poskened that it was okay based on the above Gemara. I have not seen the teshuva inside so perhaps I am mistaken (maybe someone here who is familiar with it can provide the link), but my impression was that the reason he says it’s okay is because it’s not davka a nisayon for the person. And that is my impression of the Gemara as well.
But if I’m mistaken about either the Teshuva or the Gemara and someone has sources proving otherwise, please let me know.
In our cases, we seem to be talking about things that are nisyonos for the people involved. If something is a serious nisayon for someone and they are seriously concerned about it, I am not sure that “leica darka achrina” would apply. I would imagine that this would depend on the extent to which they are concerned vs. the necessity of doing the action.
In LB’s case, one factor seemed to be the fact that she didn’t seem to think it was so necessary to do anything. If she had, I think she could have found another solution so I’m not sure that “leika darka achrina” applies.
I would have taken the keys out of the door and hung up a sign in the lobby, found set of keys, please call….. that would give plenty of time to arrange with a married couple in the building to be the pick up spot.
apushatayid – I think it was late at night, so that’s not so practical. I think that would cause more harm than good.
It was late at night? All the more reason not to leave someones keys hanging in the lock.
I agree with you and I would have knocked on the door or found another solution. But for some reason, LB didn’t think that it was such a problem leaving the keys there and she did think that knocking on the door was a major problem. Since I’m not her and I’m not in the situation, I wasn’t sure that I had enough information to tell her what she should have done. I felt like there were too many unknowns here. Why did she not think it was a big deal? Is the door to the building kept locked at all times and they live in a very safe neighborhood? Did she have reason to believe that he would notice soon? Why was she so uncomfortable?
The main issue is that if she felt so uncomfortable, I felt uncomfortable telling her to knock on the door. Especially since I don’t know her so it’s hard for me to know where that discomfort is coming from and how justified it is.
Personally, if I had felt uncomfortable knocking on the door, I probably would have tried to keep an eye out to make sure that he eventually brought the keys in (and not someone else). Which is why I asked her if the keys were still there.
Lilmod: I don’t understand the Gemara. Let me try explain why.
The Gemara praises a person who averts his eyes from gazing at women while they are washing. The Gemara proceeds to ask on this statement: If he has an alternative route to take and doesn’t, then he is a Rasha [Putting yourself into a matzav of nisayon makes you a Rasha even if you correctly assess your ability NOT to be nichshal, and even though you are ืขืืื ืขื ื ืกืืื]. If there was no alternative route to take, then ืื ืืก ืืื.
If the Gemara would be talking about the issue of exposing onesself to nisayon, then I would understand. There is no concrete issur to enter a nisayon, and in a case of LD”A (Leka Darka Achrina) that would be premitted. But the gemara doesn’t say that.
Rashba”m explains – ืื ืืก ืืื. ืืก ืืกืชืื ืืจื ืืืืืชื ืืืื ืก ืจืืื ื ืคืืจืื ืืืื ืืืงืืงื ืืืชืื ืืืขืฆืื ืขืื ืื
ืืืืืฉืชืื ืืื ืงืจื ืฉืืขืื ื ืืฆืจืื ืืขืฆืื ืขืื ืื. He is an Oines, even if he gazes en route, and therefore why is he obligated to avert his eyes, and we know he must because the Torah praises him for doing so.What sort of ืืื ืก are we talking about here? Why does the fact that he was “Oines” in entering the situation allow him to go ahead and look – enough that the gemara doesn’t even understand why he should be praised for averting his gaze?
And the entire way through the sugya, it is clear that there is no real chiyuv to avert his gaze; even in the maskanah we praise him for “forcing himself to look away”.
Histaklus is a real Issur. ืฆืจืื ืืื ืืืืฆืื ืื ืืืื ื rather than to be oiver an issur. One is only allowed to transgress a Torah prohibition at life threatening risk (or perhaps prolonged torture). (To make things worse, the issur of Histaklus R’ Moshe is mesupak whether it constitutes Abizrayhu De’Arayos as is the pashtus hagemara in other places, in which case the law is ืืืจื ืืื ืืขืืืจ, getting rid of any heter oines.) Why is one who gazes and isn’t ืขืืฆื ืขืื ืื not a Rasha? I can hear why he is allowed to enter the situation, but why are we allowing him to be ื ืืฉื??
ืืื ืื ืืกืชืืจ ืื ืื ืืืืื ืฉืืงืจื ืืกืจ ืืืจืืจ ืืฆื ืกืคืง ืื ืืจื ื ืืฆื ืฉืืจืืืจ ืืื ืืืจ ืืืกืืจ ืืขืฆื ืืืืืื ืืืื ืฉืืืืข ืฉื”ื ืื ืืื ืืจืืืจ ืืื ืืืื ืืืชืจ ืื ืืขืืืจ ืขื ืืืกืืจ ืฉืืชืืจื ืืฉืืื ืคืจื ืกืชื ืืฆืืจืื ืืื ืคืืงืื ื ืคืฉ, ืื ืืืื ืืืื ืฉืืงืจื ื ืืืจ ืืืขื ืืฉืืืจื ืืฉืื ืฉืืืื ืืื ืืืืจ ืจืข ืืื ืื ืืืจ ืฉืืื ื ืืืกืืจ ืืจืืจ ืืืื ืฆ”ืข ืืืื ื ืืื ืฉืื ืืืื ืฉืื ืืื ืืืจืืจ.
— ืืืจืืช ืืฉื, ืื”ืข ื”ื ืกื’ ื ”ื
He does seem to say that the ืืืชืจ is only in a case where it will not involve ืืืกืืจืื ืืืืื. I am not sure why he asks only about ืืจืืืจ but doesn’t ask about the ืืืกืืจ ืืกืชืงืืืช (which is ืืกืืจ even without ืืจืืืจ, at least to an ืขืจืื)
In the past, I have thought to compare this with ืื ืืคืฉืจ ืืื ืงื ืืืืื, as we see by other ืืืกืืจื ืื ืื. I do not know the ins and outs of Avoida Zora, so I can’t be sure I am right with this, but the way the ืืืจืื ืื explain the ืืืชืจ of ืื ืืคืฉืจ ืืื ืงื ืืืืื, I don’t know if you can apply it to Histaklus; it would only be by ืืืกืืจื ืื ืื. See ืื’ ืจ’ ืฉืืขืื ืฉืงืืค ื ืืจืื ืกื’ ื”ื ืื”ื. (Yes, I know not to pasken halachah from a Chiddushei R’ Shimon!)
A friend of mine recently showed me that the ืืคืฅ ืืืื does apply ืื ืืคืฉืจ ืืื ืงื ืืืืื to the case in ืืื ืืชืจื; (http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=14233), although he explains that Arayos is worse.
Perhaps that’s why there is a ืืืชืจ ืืื ืก here; it’s anyways technically ืืืชืจ because of ืคืกืืง ืจืืฉื; it’s only the ืืืืจื ืืขืจืืืช. Dunno.
lightbrite,
Most respondents to your OP are assuming that the reason you were uncomfortable knocking on his door was because of tznius. In a later post, however, you wrote that you would just ask him what he would have wanted you to do, which suggests that you are fine with having conversations with him (i.e., it doesn’t violate your sense of tznius or safety). Therefore, I am confused about your OP, because I do not understand why you wouldn’t feel comfortable knocking on his door.
Also, what did you mean by,
I donโt want to be the nice older neighbor next door
Avram – I would assume that she feels that speaking to someone when they happen to pass by in the hallway is different than knocking on his door late at night.
She does mention that if the situation were reversed, she wouldn’t want him to knock on her door. So she was acting towards him the way she would want him to act to her.
I actually just noticed now that she wrote that. I think that is an important point for anyone who may have judged LB unfavorably to keep in mind. She was not “being Frum at someone else’s expense” but rather, it seems that she was considering what she thought he would prefer her to do (and even if she was wrong, it was just a mistake and she had no way of knowing what he would want – she could only go by what she would want in a similar situation.)
Where is lightbrite- she has not responded to this thead, or any others that I have looked at in the last few days. Very unlike her. CR has gotten very dark lately…
LB, if you are there, are you ok? Busy cleaning for Pesach?Hey WTP – it’s so cool that when I’m bored during US night time and I’m waiting for the site to be updated, I get to see updates from you. Even if I can’t actually read them, it’s cool that I can see that you’re online! I feel like I have some company!
Have a great Shabbos!
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