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If you saw your neighbor’s car and house keys stuck to the keyhole outside his front door?
The front door was closed. You just came home and walked by his apartment to get to yours. He is younger than you. Just moved in two months ago. The most that you’ve spoken is a “Hi” a few times and a “Nice to meet you,” right before he moved in.
If it was me, I wouldn’t want him to knock on my door to tell me. I would be okay if it was one of my other neighbors.
I may have even done that myself before. Maybe he ran in quickly to use the bathroom or something and forgot? And will realize in a few minutes?
His apartment is the very first one up the stairs. Unless someone was going up the stairs though, I do not think that his keys would be visible to anyone except the people coming and going on our floor of maybe 7 apartments, and the mailperson if there were any packages to deliver today.
What would you have done? I did not do anything and hoped that he would figure it out himself. I did not feel comfortable knocking on his door, and the car and house keys did not seem like a huge risk.
Thank you
edited
Can you ask someone else in the building to tell him?
I would ask the CR what to do and follow the sage advice given online.
how long have the keys been in the door now? Are they still there?
“Does that mean that I am LU too?”
Cool! That would explain the posters who don’t like it when we talk to ourselves (I mean each other :))
Sichah for tachlis perfectly OK. Just keep it short and to the point.
you were wise to be cautious. the picture redleg described is extremely superficial. between a man and a woman the slightest raise of an eyebrow or a hint of a smile can cause an earthquake of emotion in the other person. the next time you saw this boy you would already have begun a relationship. we may not be cognizant of this, but our Chochomim know.
Slip a note under his door, knock on the door, and walk away
” but our Chochomim know”
Our chochamim told us not to return items lost by members of the opposite gender?
Sorry, being sarcastic about something prescribed in Torah is not an option. Feel free to comment on your own thoughts but not in that format
C’mon ubiquitin. You know that isn’t what he said. Whether or not you see it the same way, there is no question he didn’t say that.
“You know that isn’t what he said”
Unless he was being sarcastic I dont see how else to understand the comment. Im sorry Feivel if I misunderstood.
Someone clearly left keys you return it. Period. I dont understand why this is a question. you dont need to discuss anything but the keys you found. dont go in for coffee, dont discuss the weather
Redleg outlined it pretty well.
At the very least ring the bell and leave
You definitely should have rang the bell.
I work in a public school and keep my distance from the males as able. There are some men in the school who i have nothing at all to do with and we pass each other several times in a day without even a nod. one day I had to deliver a message to this teacher that his car was parked illegally (sent by the office since I was heading in his direction). Ever since that day he has always nodded or smiled when he passes, says hi or comments on the day.
Do I expect this to start a relationship, ch”v? No, I don’t. But the halachos are not built around me and that particular teacher. What if he was sharing my office and we sat near each other for hours a day and now the silence was broken? This is how people work and denying it is just silly.
yesterday I noticed my male single parent neighbor left his lights on in his car. I did not feel comfortable knocking on his door so I asked my son to call him and let him know. if i didn’t have a son, and i was still sensitive about knocking, i have no doubt i would have found another option.
“Do I expect this to start a relationship, ch”v? No, I don’t.”
exactly!
what you are doing is adding a geder on top of a geder on top of a geder. Which is not wrong, but it is important to understand.
chazal knew what they were doing they assered yichud, they cautioned “aL TARBEH sicha im isha” They did not say DONT return lost items. The gemara brings the story of Bruriah who was asked “ezeh derech L’Lod” she scolded for not asking more directly “eizeh L’Lod (apologies if I missed a detail but that is the gist) a MINIMAL amount of interaction with members of other gender (directions, returning key, informing regarding lights) is wholly approriate. Arguably treating such benign exchanges as taboos that have know been violated is more dangerous than simply saying “Hi you left your lights on,”
The Shulchan Aruch paskens l’halacha “????? ?? ????? ????”.
Joseph +1
note: “????” not completely.
“I did not feel comfortable knocking on his door…”
I wouldnt either. And as you say “i have no doubt i would have found another option.” Exactly! but you wouldnt (i hope) just leave his car with headlights on.
All feivel said was “you were wise to be cautious”
He didn’t say she should grab the keys and run
There is no clear rule for these things. It depends on who is person is. If you’re not comfortable, there’s probably a good reason for that. Even if you are, maybe you shouldn’t be.
“All feivel said was “you were wise to be cautious””
thats not all he said. He also said
“the picture redleg described is extremely superficial. between a man and a woman the slightest raise of an eyebrow or a hint of a smile can cause an earthquake of emotion in the other person. the next time you saw this boy you would already have begun a relationship. we may not be cognizant of this, but our Chochomim know.”
I admit I’m not sure which chazal he is referring to.
I’, also not sure what he meant by “the picture redleg described is extremely superficial” that seems like a good thing. Keep it superficial.
Again, Apologies if I misunderstood and as a result hijacked this thread
Some of the previous posters are demonstrating my points about
misunderstanding, miss-information and obsession. PS Joey, you are just repeating my advice. The SA is not advising not to speak to women in gantzen. There is no question that sichah letachlis is permitted. So many people simply don’t understand the concepts of what is to be avoided.
Hey, Mods. How’s that for a circumlocution (Am I allowed to say that?)
🙂
Redleg, you are right, but with one crucial prerequisite:
The person needs to be able to handle the exchange with the maturity and sensibility that, for better or for worse, many of our brothers and sisters simply don’t have. For some people (feivel), even a hint of a smile is enough to cause “an earthquake of emotion”. So know who you’re dealing with. That’s all.
Wow, and you don’t even know him.
There is no clear rule for these things. It depends on who is person is. If you’re not comfortable, there’s probably a good reason for that. Even if you are, maybe you shouldn’t be.
Who says you have a right to be frum on yenem’s cheshbon?
Suppose you don’t have tefillin and only your neighbor’s wife is home? You have to knock on the door, ask for the tefillin, and put them on. And deal with your nisyonos. You can’t not do mitzvos because you have nisyonos.
see this is the part that gets really annoying. NOBODY said not to return the keys, NOBODY said to leave someone at a loss.
SOME people are pretty nasty toward others who try to do what is right (because they need to believe it isn’t what’s right? Then just say so like a mensch. Or maybe some people can’t handle the exchange with maturity and sensibility so they just go for nasty)
sorry, i digress –
I said i didn’t feel comfortable so i found another way. Now i’m being accused of being misguided and over chumradik. and even tho i wrote another post explaining that small exchanges DO make changes, you prefer to consider it a chumra. Fine, go ask your rav and follow accordingly. But you may not be right about it being machmir to find other ways instead.
I grew up in coed settings. we mocked all those people who said you have to stay separate. we rolled our eyes at all of these same issues, “ha ha, let his car battery die he may want to marry you if you approach him”. But do you want to be really honest? We mocked and commented on how each of us and our friends had tons of platonic relationships. We laughed at all these ‘chumras’ knowing that we each could fill a page with names of boys or girls we didn’t touch. But the HONEST truth is that very very few had a list that ONLY contained people they didn’t touch. Everyone with all these platonic relationships had at least one that wasn’t.
And as the decades have passed, many being raised in this same environment and school system are involved in much worse than we ever were. So yes, you can have a million platonic relationships with men or women throughout your lives, but when you are not thoughtful (and you can review the definition of that with your rav) about these exchanges, you will always run the risk of that one relationship that isn’t.
what i started off saying before tangeting was that when a poster says “don’t do X by doing Y” we get people clamoring all over the “You are telling people not to do X?” bandwagon.
READ THE POST! Just cuz you have pet peeves about people being overchumradik (which i do as well WHEN IT APPLIES), doesn’t mean you read what you think you read!!!
Syag
“But the HONEST truth is that very very few had a list that ONLY contained people they didn’t touch. Everyone with all these platonic relationships had at least one that wasn’t”
so that is two issurim: the touching, and the friendship see (Igeros Moshe) this thread is not about issurim. IT is about returning lost keys.
“Now i’m being accused of being misguided and over chumradik.”
I didnt mean to accuse you of anything. In fact I pointed out that you did not leave the lights on.
“NOBODY said not to return the keys,”
Feivel sounded that way, though again perhaps I misunderstood
Wait so this wasn’t about tznius at all?
I am so confused
so that is two issurim: the touching, and the friendship see (Igeros Moshe) this thread is not about issurim. IT is about returning lost keys
No, it’s not about returning lost keys. It’s about keeping appropriate distance to avoid issurim.
DY
This isnt appropriate distance?
what do you suggest?
I suggested ringing the bell and leaving anote. I dont understand leaving them there
Meno + 1
Or, or, knock on the door of a different female neighbor, and tell her to knock on his door and tell him.
Why me?
I don’t talk to men.
And I do?
Yes, you wear full length skirts and don’t braid your hair.
Or, or,
Run back out, buy a megaphone, stand in your apt and start broadcasting “apartment 2b, your keys are in the door.” And do the screechy sound so it masks your voice and he doesn’t know it’s you.
Wear a facemask when you knock on door, so even if he likes you, he won’t know who you are.
Wear a sheitel so he thinks you’re married.
Call hatzala to his house, they’ll notice the keys and tell him.
Call his rav.
Call your brother, knock on door and hand him phone.
Knock on door and run away. If he doesn’t notice keys, do it again and again until he notices.
Call a shadchan, ask them to set you up with him, on the date, tell him there are keys in his door.
Take the keys, go outside, tape them to a rock with duct tape, throw the rock through his window.
Pull the fire alarm. He’ll notice on way back in.
That enough ideas? You aren’t pattur from mitzvos just because you’re frum. It’s a common misconception, but even frum people are chayav to keep the Torah.
Ubiquitin, I don’t know. It depends on the people.
Yes, popa, that’s why the Torah calls arayos chessed.
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