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What would it take for you to pack up your family and move OOT to Norfolk, Rochester or any of the other out of town locations that regularly advertise here on YWN extolling the virtues of leaving the NY/NJ metro area and reinventing your life in a community with a considerably smaller frum tzibur but much lower costs, congestion and slower lifestyle? Some towns are even offering modest dollar grants and stipends to attract new residents. I’ve always wondered what would be the determining factor for most long-term NY area residents to travel to the ends of the earth (metaphorically). Its a totally different decision that Aliyah but still potentially as disruptive and ultimately rewarding.
Job offer in that community.
Virtually nothing could entice moving away from a large community of frum ehrliche Bnei Torah Yidden to a place with so much less of such.
Norfolk is actually extremely crime-ridden. It’s a shame they couldn’t have picked a nicer area for a southern Jewish community in a state with vouchers.
Right now I live within walking distance of my parents’ home, and to me that is priceless. I can’t think of anything that might tempt me to move.
If my parents were to move out of town, I would consider following, assuming their destination is one that I could live with and like.The implied premise is that living IT (in town) is somehow better than OOT (out of town). I doubt that anyone would deny that there are benefits to living IT, but it has grown to be treated as if that is somehow a requirement to living a decent, frum life. That I question. Why not recreate most of the benefits of living IT in an OOT location, where one can reap the benefits of both?
Why would anybody live in Norfolk or Rochester? Boring towns.
TLIK: That could only happen by transporting an equal quantity of Torah, chesed, poshute Yidden, Bnei Torah, Gedolei Yisroel, yeshivos, butei medrashim where you could walk and breath in as close as possible to an all-Jewish all-Torah all-Yidden environment.
In short, virtually impossible.
I figure when I am old I am moving to Florida with all the other old jews
Joseph:
הוי גולה למקום תורה does not mean Boro Park, Williamsburg, or Flatbush. It means a place where there is established batei medrash to learn, obviously not a desolate mountainside. There is no reference to quantity of Torah. Chesed abounds everywhere, and when it is not panhandlig in the streets in front of you, don’t worry, there is a mailbox and a phone. My phone rings on tzedokos a dozen or more times a day. Poshute Yidden abound OOT, where they are recognized to be as holy as those who wear “levush”. The insular all-Yidden environment has its conveniences, but it is not by definition holier. If fact, the OOT mentality tends to ignore the chitzoniyus as just that, and does not use it as the yardstick to measure someone’s neshomoh.
In short, IT has its perks, but there are some maalos to the OOT life. What is good for me or my preferences may not be so for someone else.
OOT is very often a spiritual danger zone. IT you are far more likely to remain in a frum environment and bring up your family frum.
“OOT is very often a spiritual danger zone. IT you are far more likely to remain in a frum environment and bring up your family frum.”
hands down one of the dumbest things you’ve posted all week
And Chicago and Rochester are just too cold in the wintertime for many to want to move to.
I find this conversation a bit puzzling. Many Brooklynites are already moving “Out of Town” albeit staying in the tri-State area. Housing is a lot cheaper, and for the most part they can retain their jobs and have a nice choice of schools for their kids or (in the cases of Staten Island & Linden from BP) bus or drive them to their original schools. And all Jewish amenities are still a jump, skip, or hop away…
I’m aware that most here arbitrarily decided that Lakewood, Monroe, or Staten Island is considered “in town” either due its high heimish population density or close proximity to Brooklyn, but each community has its quality of life perks with much more affordable housing. Which begs the question, why move out of NY & NJ if you can have your cake and eat it too “locally”?
Syag:
You wrote: ““OOT is very often a spiritual danger zone. IT you are far more likely to remain in a frum environment and bring up your family frum.”
hands down one of the dumbest things you’ve posted all week”
I agree with you. But let’s explain this so that we can continue a discussion with the correct terms.
Spirituality and religion are not the same thing. Perhaps in the ideal world, religion should be spiritual, but the reality is simply not so. Let’s give some examples.
Do we daven all 3 tefilos every day with complete emotional intensity? The flip side – Are we just getting through this routine chore to move on to the rest of our schedule?
Are we doing our jobs, learning, and other activities with a self-interest or to benefit the others around us? In the learning situation, are we approaching Torah with a steadily growing degree of lishmoh?
Are we engaged in satisfying our primary drives, including feeding our egos, for the self-pleasures we get?
I know these questions are pushing an envelope that many may feel belongs in previous generations. Or maybe we delude ourselves and believe we are actually paragons of gadlus (which presses the question about gaavah).
Having drawn a distinction here, the IT experience is bound to involve higher levels of environmental religiosity, as Joseph noted with the easy access to many resources. But does that translate to the ultimate internal experience of having a bond and connection to Hashem? Perhaps this can be achieved OOT, without the masquerade of the external trappings.
When people from OOT talk about quality of life, they need to understand that that is a subjective measurement. Personally I feel the quality of life IT is far superior. We have minyonim for shachris starting before 6 oclock and running till as late as you want to daven, mincha from half hour after chatzos till the latest chasidishe zman continuosly, maariv till 2 in the morning. There are choices you can make like which of the 5 to 10 kosher supermarkets competing for your business you will shop, or which school to send your kid, or which hechsher you want to eat, or which shul you want to daven in, and the list goes on. Then there is the convenience. Take my situation, a 10 minute walk from my house is the country’s largest seforim and judaica store. On my way there I pass 7 banks, 3 dry cleaners, 5 pharmacies (including a walgreens), 3 bakeries, 2 bagel stores, 3 barber shops, a kosher grocery, a kosher butcher, kosher fish store, 5 fleishig restaurants, 3 kosher pizza stores, an ice cream store, 7 tznius womens clothing stores, kosher wine, and Jewish owned hardware, electronics, housewares, and discount stores. Quality of life can mean many things, it doesn’t only have to be defined as large houses, yards and less traffic. These are personal preferences.
Geshmak:
That is the point I was making. These are conveniences, and many of us enjoy them. The OOT of experience is quite different, and there are other maalos that some find desirable. Does anyone here recall being unable to purchase Cholov Yisroel at a local store, and needing to exert effort to maintain that halacha? How about the congenial attitude toward other Yidden that is blind to someone’s levush? The ability to daven Shacharis without being interrupted countless times by tzedokoh collectors (not minimizing the mitzvah involved, just noting the disruption)? How about the role of the local yeshiva being a community institution, not one of a bunch of competitors that could reject or expel a child on impulse?
Different folks have different preferences. You are on the mark noting that the judgment is very subjective.
OOT if the school rejects (or expels) a child, the child is pot out of luck since that might be the only game in town. So he’s gotta be shipped to another town, perhaps *gasp* NY, to dorm or travel excessively each day.
Joseph:
The attitude of disposing of children is non-existent OOT. There are no competitors, and no one is busy vying for the image of exclusivity. Never say never, but these expulsions and rejections are rare. IT is very different, and yeshivos often view their ability to reject and expel as badges of honor. Sad.
Dorming is not that bad, so i wouldn’t give it a bad rap. It was the norm back in the day.
There are places OOT where homeschooling is actually a viable option.
TLIK: Your last comment is highly inaccurate. IT expulsions are far rarer than OOT. You may be confusing expulsions with initial rejections. Regarding the latter, IT that isn’t a big deal since there are another dozen plus mosdos to choose from. OOT you don’t have that option and you’re stuck out of luck if that happens.
⬆️ That post was less about dumb, and more about total ignorance.
Josephine,
Your silly, made-up “knowledge” regarding OOT communities demonstrates your woeful ignorance and that you’ve probably never stepped out of Brooklyn. For the sake of the rest of the world, please keep it that way.
Syag, I’m sorry to see that you still haven’t been able to overcome your jealousy of those zoche to life IT. A solution to your dillema would be to move to the city that never sleeps. Because the Kol HaTorah is fired up 24/7.
If you are looking for a place in Virginia other than Norfolk that has the state supported tuition scholarships you might want to consider Richmond.
As for us, we moved out of Brooklyn when we reached the point that we just plain couldn’t afford to stay. When we reached the point where rent and food took more than my whole paycheck with nothing left for luxuries like electricity or tuition then there was really no point in staying. And before some fool comments, we don’t have smartphones, new cars, coffee from Starbucks or bungalows, and the closest we get to a vacation is to go and stay with my in-laws on a visit.
There are a lot of people who get pushed OOT because they just can’t afford to stay.
Having grown up “OOT’ (a most offensive term) and having seen how NYers, NJers and Philadelphians ruined the community, there is nothing in the world that could entice me to move to the Tri-State area.
Anyone not in E”Y IS OOT!
There is also a very wide range in the OOT world. Cities like LA, Chicago, Cleveland, Toronto, Detroit, Baltimore etc. have all the amenities that you have in NY, smaller volume, without a lot of the negativity described above. Other smaller communities, like perhaps South Bend, Omaha, Memphis, have some nisyonos when it comes to shopping, chalav Yisroel, etc. Then there are places in the middle, eg. Minneapolis, St. Louis, Denver, that have some things and are lacking others. There is no monolithic OOT.
midwesterner: There are many negativities there that you won’t find in NY.
@ Joseph
“…move to the city that never sleeps. Because the Kol HaTorah is fired up 24/7”
Only a New Yorker is capable of the delusion that someone in actually jealous of their lifestyle. Also, You are, grossly overstating the benefits of living in NY and understating the nisyonos. As for your contention that the Kol Torah is fired up 24/7. Maybe, you could compare the number of married full time learners in NY vs Lakewood?
Lest you think I just don’t know what I’m missing you should know that I visit NY quite regularly (my mother lives there).
NP: Then you missed the boat. Giving up the humongous ruchniyos benefits of living IT to gain some ostensible gashmiyus benefits of OOT, is terribly foolish.
Lakewood and Monsey, btw, are full all intents and purposes a chelek of IT.
“Giving up the humongous ruchniyos benefits of living IT to gain some ostensible gashmiyus benefits of OOT”
Must be Opposite Day in Joseph’s house…
“Giving up the humongous ruchniyos benefits of living IT to gain some ostensible gashmiyus benefits of OOT”
Josephine,
How ironic that you associate IT with “ruchniyos” and OOT with “gashmiyus”. While living IT does have certain advantages, the level of hedonism, materialism and “keeping-up” too often drives people away from spiritual pursuits and even OTD. Most OOT communities have a much simpler and less ostentatious standard of living than IT, allowing people to truly focus on serving Hashem. Unfortunately, Lakewood and Monsey can be considered IT in this regard.
The glaring issue here is your sick need to judge and denigrate those who are different in any way from you. Of course, we can’t even be sure that you actually live in Brooklyn, have 3 wives, 27 children and work for the public school system. You could really be someone named Irene living in a nursing home in Topeka. Oh well; troll on.
Chicago isnt for me, I hate the cold. I can barely stand NYC cold, Chicago cold is unbearable
Look, living IT costs much more in housing. And you get less space, no yard, cramped on top of your neighbors house literally a few feet away. OOT you have much more gashmiyus, etc.
Yet, nevertheless, despite the lesser gashmiyus plus the higher cost of housing, so so many Yidden choose to nevertheless live IT, give up the gashmiyus of nicer housing with more space etc. And even former OOTers, so very many of them, have chosen to give up the OOT gashmiyus and uproot their entire families to move IT for the great ruchniyos benefits in living in a full time Yiddishe environment surrounded by tens of thousands of ehrliche Yidden, Gedolei Yisroel, Bnei Torah, multitudes of yeshivos and butei medrashim, etc.
All over IT you can find many many former OOTers. Whereas the yeshivos are growing IT, unfortunately OOT the yeshivos are either stagnating or shrinking in most OOT communities. Because so many of their young families have moved out at marriage or later. Other than newish OOT communities that grow a bit in their initial years, it is rare to find a long established OOT community that is adding yeshivos year after year.
You forgot to start with, “once upon a time…”
You think housing costs IT are lower than OOT? Ah nechtinge tug.
Joseph:
Cut it out. Your comments are all focused on degrading others. OOT and IT both have their maalos. It is a lie to claim that OOT is a choice for gashmiyus and IT is a choice for ruchniyus. That is simply untrue. All that is correct is that there are the more external trappings of each, IT having greater access to religiosity and OOT less so. But if you would focus on absolute emes, you would recognize that these externals do NOT determine at all whether someone is living a truly spiritual life. Way back before the Holocaust, the majority of frum Yidden lived in the shtetl, where they maintained their insular communities, without a beis hamedrash on every block, without kosher ice cream stores, where there was zero competition who makes a bigger and fancier chumash seuda, has the huge, obscenely expensive weddings, where hechsherim are as competitive as peddlers. No big cities, but tzaddikim, pashute Yidden. Even the few yeshivos were not competitive. People learned by Rebbeim, not names of cities. No shidduch resumes, no making shidduchim based on common practices of using the eiruv versus not using it, no one-upping in chumros, etc. These are actually spiritual things that matter more than the external religiosity. I think I have said enough to make the point understandable.
Yes, IT, with its current easy access to many resources has its maalos, as many here have noted. But none of these guarantee that someone is a better Yid. One can utilize these things and indeed accomplish much. But the same can be said for OOT.
Stop writing things to irritate. Recognize a bit of truth, and that your opinion is just that, a personal preference. Other choose differently, and כולם אהובים כולם ברורים.
IT meaning Lakewood or Brooklyn? Lakewood has a whole bunch of yeshivos that can’t support themselves and has 5-10 buchrim. I don’t know much about Brooklyn, but I thought only yeshivos like chaim berlin were growing.
TLIK: Halevi, halevi we could return to the state of shtetl life.
Can you explain why so so many frum Yidden, Bnei Torah (a vast majority of Chareidi Yidden), choose to live IT rather than OOT despite housing costs IT being much higher than OOT and despite getting much less and much tighter and cramped space than OOT?
Clearly not for gashmiyus reasons.
Jews started moving away from the Shtels around the time of Napoleon when they became emacipated in many countries. Vienna went from a city of about 10,000 jews in 1800 to about 150,000 jews in 1939
Joseph:
People make choices that fit more with the agenda of their goals. It is not rare that young couples marry and choose to live near parents. That is not about ruchniyus. Others simply prefer to remain where they have been, again not necessarily ruchniyus. The dichotomy of IT=ruchniyus and OOT=gashmiyus is simply untrue. There are realities that there are gashmiyus amenities that are hard to find IT, and religious ones that are not as plentiful OOT. But I draw attention to the huge distinction between “religiosity” and “spirituality”. It is not about return to the shtetl. It is that the spiritual heights were not determined by the outside factors you seem to worship. Torah was given in a midbor, not the streets of BP or Willi.
I happen to live IT, and I do enjoy the conveniences here. But the OOT life, of which I have tasted much, is different, not worse. And people should make their choices based on what they prioritize, not your pronouncement that IT = Yiddishkeit, and only baalei taavah who are addicted to their comforts gravitate and lower themselves to live OOT. And I am acquainted with many who live OOT and are truly impressive spiritual Yidden, and with the “frummest” in appearance and other aspects of chitzoniyus who are true low lifes and an embarrassment to Klal Yisroel. No OOT is not always better, but neither is IT.
What would it take for me to move OOT? Not much Brooklyn is the pits and cesspool of NYS.
My question is how much would it take to get me to pack up my family and move IT?
More than anyone could offer.
My parents left NYC for New Haven in 1950. Dozens of shuls, bakeries, butchers, Yeshivas, day school, Mikveh, affordable single family homes with land and business opportunities.
I left for Fairfield County decades ago. Not as many choices, but I can be in NYC in 90 minutes. That’s close enough for me.
With on line and phone shopping, I seldom come into the city, just for simchas, special occasions or to visit the family cemeteryI almost cried reading these responses. Yiddin, open your eyes! What more proof do you need? Can’t you see that Hashem is calling you to come home to Eretz Yisrael? You want quality of Jewish life? There is no place like Eretz Yisrael! Who can honestly argue that Hashem wants you to live in town or out of town. Hashem wants Klal Yisrael to live in Eretz Yisrael. It’s in almost every Parsha in the Torah and every perek of Tanach. What are you waiting for? For Hashem to chase you out of America?
I hear what you are saying but I do not know if it is accurate.
Chassidishe seform speak of neitzozos kedusha that need to be gathered up before the Moshiach age.
If so, there is a reason why yidden are living in Europe, Africe, SOuth America and North America. Yidden in these countries need to drain, so to speak, the netzoitzis that are there. Once that occurs, we can all go to E”Y. This concept of netzozos is a very interesting, unique and powerful inspiration that explains galus as we see it. It is a chassidishe concept so you need to consult with chassidishe rabbonim to fully understand what it means.tcanter:
No one is prescribing choosing where to live based on the gathering of neitzosos. One would need to be steeped in Kabbalah to have access to that knowledge, aside from other spiritual achievements. The discussion of this we are capable of understanding is that we can recognize on hindsight that there were reasons we needed to be where we were at that given time. No, we are likely to not truly understand this, but our belief system and the understanding that Hashem makes the world exist every moment in time with divine and infinite cheshbonos provides us a language to use to explain it. Without the Kabbalistic vocabulary, it is frequent that hindsight enables us to recognize our experiences as having been beneficial even when we could not have predicted it beforehand.
Our responsibility is to make the best choices we can with what Hashem gave us. This hardly includes those matters that reside in domains beyond our grasp. But the hindsight can afford us a better focus.
What are you waiting for? For Hashem to chase you out of America?
Some people have responsibilities here, like family members who cannot move (ie Elderly parents, divorced parents with shared custody) parnasah issues etc
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