- This topic has 106 replies, 34 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
What can you talk about on a first bishow?
For a man or woman?
Good question.
Family, yeshiva/school
what’s a bishow? where does the word come from?
I imagine you would talk about anything you would talk about on any other first date. No one is sitting with you, you are basically on your own. So think about what you really want to know about the other person and what is important for you to hear for yourself.
Do you want to know what hobbies they have? What they like to do when they have a few minutes off from their normal routine? Do you want to know what their normal routine or seder hayom is like? Do you want to see if the two of you are alike in any way? Maybe you would want to know what their favorite color is, or if they like flowers, or if they like kids? Ask what age kid they think is most fun. Ask about their siblings, ask about their grandparents. Watch their responses. Are they happy and excited when they speak about their siblings and grandparents? Do they show respect and ahava for their family? These are important signs to watch for.
These are pretty much “warm” and safe things to talk about, but they are questions that should bring about good discussion and allow you to have a peek into the other’s personality. If they tell you a story about a member of their family it might give you a hint of their sense of humor.
You can ask questions like what values do you look for in your best friend. This will give you a peek into the other’s value system. Ask open ended questions to give the other person a chance to talk and not just say yes or no. So stay away from “do you like chocolate? Yes? Me too!
As a Litvak, I strongly believe there is a lot of merit to the Chasidisha dating system.
How can we go about implementing it? i.e. Bishows, etc.
aries – the thing with a bishow is it makes it all the more awkward than a regular date. When you go out with someone, somehow it breaks the tension and uncomfortable atmosphere to a degree, but when your just sitting across a table in a room talking… i guess you can say speak about what you would on any date, but on any date usually other conversation pieces and topics automatically come up.
Good post Aries –
While your ideas are good, the major obstacle I see with boys and girls on a beshow is that they lack basic social skills needed to communicate with genders other than their own. Girls have somewhat of an upperhand becuase they ususaly have a year or so of experience working among men. But the boy? Poor guy doesnt know what hit him. My friend’s son was “coached” on the 15 minute drive from his house to his beshow on what to say and what to ask.
Best is to let the girl do the talking and for the boy to just nod a lot. Keep the conversation light. They can (and do) make up for it during sheva brachos. I see it in BP all the time
As a Litvak, I strongly believe there is a lot of merit to the Chasidisha dating system.
How can we go about implementing it? i.e. Bishows, etc.
Simple. Just do it yourself. Don’t impose it on the rest of the Litvishe (or any other non-Chassidic) world.
The Wolf
BP Totty,
I don’t agree that the boy should only nod his head. There’s no reason that there cannot be a normal conversation flowing if the two click. Unless one of them has a social issues problem or is simply shy, which in that case he/she needs more time to open up.
My friend’s son was “coached” on the 15 minute drive from his house to his beshow on what to say and what to ask.
Nu, s’faylt iem epes?
generally by a bishow you speak nonesense… it doest really matter what you talk about. the point is the conversation should flow and you see you can enjoy each others company. we always joke that we have to do it all over again because we never finished one topic… we jumped from one to the next.
basically we discussed trips we’ve taken around the world, family, yeshiva etc. make sure you meet more than once because both parties are more relaxed after sleeping things over and you get to enjoy the conversation even more.
Truth is, with all the checking that supposedly goes on before anyone agrees to a meeting, what is there left to talk about? You already know everything about the parents, grandparents, cousins and extended family from both sides at least 4 generations back. The parents finances have been thoroughly vetted, double and triple checked and possibly audited by one of the big 4 firms and perhaps there is even an SEC filing. The schooling, back to kindergarten has been checked and triple checked already. Where the family shops, what they buy when they buy it how they cook it, has already been through the smallest filter on the market.
Why bother speaking at all. Just sit across the table from each other for 25 minutes and if you dont feel threatened by the persons presence, or you dont feel like strangling the other person, go on to step 2 (is that another bishow, announce an engagement?)
APY, very amusing. It is very nice that the parents approve of each other but it would be nice to know if the kids do. It would be nice to know if the girl is not eckeled by the boy’s voice or laugh and vice versa. It would be nice to see a smile and as I said see a twinkle or a sense of humor.
Since it is on the girls home base, maybe she should have a list of topics at the ready because she should be more at ease. She might even put out some conversation pieces to make it easier to have something to talk about. In addition just because the parents know all about the entire family that doesn’t mean that the kids memorized each other’s resumes.
Aries: I was being sarcastic. I felt it was nicer than saying, if you can’t figure out what to talk about on a bishow, perhaps your not mature enough to bishow.
APY- I don’t see the humor in your post.
The boy and girl have to be impressed with each others too. Don’t exaggerate please.
While APY may have been a bit over the top, there is a great deal of truth to what is stated. By the time the 2 sit face to face, there is little that is not known. So what is left to discuss? Truth is, prior to sheva brachos, NOTHING. Beacuse by the time you get to the beshow point, the shidduch is basicaly aggreed upon by the parents, and to the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a 3rd beshow. You either decide, or move on. And don’t try to be too choosy, as that may land you in serious hot water. Once the beshow is agreed to, its really a done deal, so in a way, what APY wrote is quite true; if you’re not repulsed, its a go.
As far as Philosopher’s points, the only thing the bochur can possibly do is say something foolish, so its best if he keeps quiet. He can speak his mind during sheva brachos, when short of being a serial killer, the kallah will be told, don’t worry; with time, you’ll grow to like him (udder yoh, udder nisht..translation, if it works fine, if not, that fine too. Mom / Dad don’t share many laughs either.. that’s the way it is in our cirlce)
As far as “vus failt eim” (translation: what’s he lacking),true, HE lacks nothing. After all, he’s getting a new apt, new furnature, a new friend, one that is more than likley quite a pleasant person. SHE on the other hand, may have gotten a real dud, who has never been given a chance to explore the world beyond the shul / yeshiva.. one that she is now saddled with for life. Still, I can’t be too critical of our chosson. After all, he’s been trained to avoid the opposite gender at all costs, and here you want him to make eye contact? Talk?
This system only works if the social system you’re in frowns on husband /wife interaction beyond the household essentials. Should Mrs. New Kallah want more than just a a domestic partnership, chances are she’s going to be flying solo.
IMHO, there is no substitute for going out on a real date. That way, you get to see how each party behaves over the course of an afternoon (dealing with traffic, driving manners, table manners, ect)
In my opinion, if the parents are both present, though in another room, which is how I was told a beshow is conducted, I would be very self-conscious. This is not for me or for my kids. Good luck to whoever is meeting their future spouses in this way (not being sarcastic, by the way).
Funny thing is that Chasidsha marriages, resulting from a beshow, tend to be the warmest most long-lasting comparitively.
I say so not even being a chosid, but with insight.
This system only works if the social system you’re in frowns on husband /wife interaction beyond the household essentials. Should Mrs. New Kallah want more than just a a domestic partnership, chances are she’s going to be flying solo.
BP Totty, those who had beshows never go on a couple only vacations, never out eat in resturaunts etc. They never ____fill in the blank with what you think non-exclusively domesticated couples do and see if there are couples who had beshows and never do these things.
You are painting these couples in one broad stroke. But we are ALL different. Yes there are even these couples who met at beshows who go to movies (not something I condone, but just proving a point).
I’m not saying that dating has no advantages. It definitely does. But looking at the overall dating v. beshows shidduch scene, I see overmelmingly that beshows are better. And not even only because of the shidduch scene but also beyond. I see people who dated for a long time find out stuff about there spouses AFTER marriage and they are not too happy.
Actually my first paragraph in my previous post were meant to be questions. I forgtot to use the question mark at the end of my sentences.
Isn’t there a saying that you should talk about friends, food and philosophy.
So one person asked the girl, well, what foods do you like? So she said, nothing really special.
What are your friends like? I don’t have too many.
Then he asked, well, if you would have friends, what foods would they like?
BP Totty- you are so wrong…times are changing.
We(myself plus about 100 friends), had beshows, are VERY THRILLED, go on vacation, you bet, go for nights out with our husbands, eat out in restaurants, and do everything you do!!
Stop being so critical of Chassidim. Start meeting each one individually. We are all different.
Pashuta yid- I heard it a bit different:
Do you like spaghetti?
Do you have a brother? No.
If you would have a brother, would he like spaghetti?
BS”D
You talk from politik, you know, like what is the latest fight by your Chassidis.
You talk from der ekonomy, you know, like what is the exchange rate from food stamps to kokosh cake at Tayve’s Hymishe Bakery and how is that comparing to the rate for EBT to cash by Balgayve Butcher Shop and TakeOut.
You talk from current events, like comparing what you hear in der mikve to what she hears in der ezros noshim…
From “A Shiddich Dating Guide far Federal Mesivta Boocherim in Byse Eysov Mydlach” (Ferdheim Press, Fort Dix, NJ).
BP Totty,
You have a wrong picture of the whole beshow proccess. A boy who keeps quiet will never make it. In today’s days it’s one of the worst things to do on a beshow. There is plenty of things to talk about. Ask anyone who went through it, including myself.
You said:
“IMHO, there is no substitute for going out on a real date. That way, you get to see how each party behaves over the course of an afternoon (dealing with traffic, driving manners, table manners, ect)”
Really now? As if people aren’t more formal on dates than by regular life, a few months after the wedding?
I went to Botanical Gardens the past Chol Hamoed Pesach. I saw there atleast 5 couples dating. Oh did I feel bad for them. Come on, you can not see what a person is from sitting on a bench and walking around while seeing lovely flowers……
A600kilobear, what a pity I didn’t read your advice before I had my beshows. I spoke about real trivial stuff at those meetings and really could’ve used your advice.
OK
ive waited long enough for someone else to ask this, so ill just have to go ahead and admit my ignorance.
what is a bishow?
Oh did I feel bad for them.
Why did you feel bad for them?
The Wolf
BS”D
A bishow is a very controlled meeting between a Chassidishe bochur and mydel which I believe takes place in the home of one or the other with parents around.
Mod LOL!
A beshow is a date without the car, without the food, and without going places.
If you haven’t gone through it, you won’t understand it anyway!!
Moderator-80, I don’t know what the exact definition of the word beshow is, but we use that word for meetings between a girl and boy in the Chassidishe world. It is like a date, but the girl and boy sit in, they don’t go out.
In some Chassidishe circles, the boy and girl know that this will be there intended and the beshow is just to fulfill the obligation, I think it was from Chazal or another source that the husband must have seen the wife before getting married. However nobody parent has the right to push a shidduch should the girl not like the boy or vice versa. In most of these cases, these teens are too naive to know anything better and everyone is happy. Yes, in most cases even after they are married.
In other Chassidishe circles, after the girl and boy had their beshow, they each decide for themselves if they want to see each other further. In some circles two times is considered effeicient to decide and some have 3-4 beshows until they are sure that they are intended for each other. But even in this situation with more decision options, there is still less of a question mark whether this is their intended, rather they go to a beshow with the idea that this is probably their intended zivug.
Mostly in chassidish circles-the boy goes to the girls house and has a “sit in”. They don’t actually go out on a date. Everything is done in her house.
smartcookie, I like your description.
thanks everyone
Cookie and says who –
I’m going on what I see in shul and the neighborhood. You have truly dynamic girls (GO presidents, camp counslors, ect) marry plain vanilla bochurim. Will the boys ramp up at some point? Maybe. But from the 30 or so couples we have produced in the shul / neighborhood so far the girls are still bubbly lively girls, and the husbands are completly at a loss on how to function out of shul / learning. (Going to the grocery / dropping off the kid at the babysitter does not count as getting out into the world)
The Beshow is a great tool, but only one of the players are really ready for what lies ahead. Know how many chassidishe girls / women go shopping in Manhattan? Or read library books Loads. No how many boys /men do the same? Very few. So once the glitter of “getting married” wears thin, its just dynamic her and plain vanilla him. Had he been expected to have a real date, he would have seen the need to develop a list of likes and dislikes so he can choose someone that melds with his personality. Since there is no such expectation, he simply stays static, and when she comes to that realization, she looks for something to hold her interest. Not a good recipe.
And yes, I am aware that there are chassidishe husbands / wifes that do the things us MOs do. That comes with a whole set of challenges on its own, because they need to hide this from their kids / parents, ect. Again, not a good thing.
As far as chossid bashing; hard to do that, when its my home turf, so yeah, I know this from the inside.. its where I grew up, and still operate. So, yes, I do speak from experience
what do you talk about on a first date?
BP Totty
I don’t inderstand your point. Are you trying to day that chassidishe bochurim are plain vanilla, don’t know much about the world and the yeshivish that go on dates are different?
BP Totty, as far as I know, no person stays static. The core characterisitcs of a person can stay the same however we our personalities are constantly evolving, depending on the stimuli around us. In addition, believe me there are plenty of leibedige Chassidishe bochurim (some of them take it to the extreme, unfortunately)
If a person is so unflexible and can’t change to the good or for Sholom Bayis, then there is indeed a problem. But most men change (hopefully in a better way) after being married for awhile.
And also BP Totty, most Chassidishe bochurim absolutely don’t just sit at a beshow nodding their heads. If a bochur does that then he has a big problem. At a beshow the girl AND the bochur TALK.
BP Totty’s outside view is completely out of perspective.
Help, I’m going on my first date tonight!!!!! Please help me, tell me what’s going to be. I’m the first from my friends, so I have no experience!!
Bullseye!
See, its not a problem if both chosson and kallah were raised under the same conditions. But by and large, the girls have a broader scope, and the boys do not. With her newfound freedom of movement and resourses (like the internet) the social gap between the two of them is only amplified.
So does the beshow work? Of course it does. But only because there is such little demanded from the boys.
Not that our circles are without our shortcomings. In our circles the girls are more accomplished from a career standpoint than the boys are in the same age range. To offset the imbalance, the 24 year old boy only feels comfortable with girls 4-5 years his junior. But thats a whole other thread.
What irks me is we have allowed a system that may have worked fine up until now, but is in need of some fine tuning. Not an overhaul, just a little tune-up.
RRYR –
That’s easy.. pick a few topics from the CR, and go with that!
Help, I’m going on my first date tonight!!!!! Please help me, tell me what’s going to be.
You’re going to meet someone. S/he will talk to you. You will form opinions of each other. You will then decide if the person interests you enough to go out on another date.
That aside, just relax and be yourself. There’s really no reason to be so nervous about a first date. The *absolute worst* that can happen is that you have a bad time, waste a few hours and move on to the next potential partner. OTOH, the upside potential is far greater.
The Wolf
BP totty. You are talking from some little resentment in your heart because what you say isn’t true.
Yes, most chassidishe men don’t have college degrees and the likes, but they all learn the ins and outs of life. Not going to the movies, but yes simpler things like vacationing and treating their wives.
Only some very narrowminded men don’t know how to open their eyes A BIT.
Or maybe your home was Very ULTRA frum.
Rryr- you’re going TONIGHT and you don’t know what to do? Hhmm…
Not a good idea.
rryr, relax;) what is it going to be like? IYH a good experience that will bring you one step closer to marrying your bashert(whoever he may be)…just let things go naturally, be polite, and smile kindly and really listen to what he has to share with you, b/c pp can tell when others pay attention.
you can take from this thread a few conversational ideas: hobbies, seminary experience, family, family trips etc
just remember: no need to spell out life goals and ambitions at
this point, keep it light and friendly.
and another thing….since you mentioned your first of your friends to date: its soo super important, i cannot STRESS this enough, that you SHOULD NOT share details of date with your friends.
yes, i know they will be waiting to hear, and i know they’ll wana know all details so that “it will help their dating experience”
but im telling you something very real: bracha metzuya bashtika!!”
bracha is found in silence! you want things to go well? don’t spread the details around town…
beside the potential loshen hara that can come out by s/o misunderstanding what you say…I have heard many cases of girls refusing certain boys( and vice versa) cuz their friend made a silly comment about what he did/ say on a date!
if your friends ask you how it went: you can tell them very generally where you went and that you spoke about “family, life, hobbies. period” don’t share more! even if you dont’ tell them the guy’s name( pp find out very quickly these things)
I know it may be hard to conceal these things…but only pp you shud talk about date is your parents and mentor, thats it!
Hatzlacha! and may it go well!
potsandpans, i can’t agree more. It is inappropriate and even a lack of sensitivity for tznius to start talking about dates to friends- Aside from all the problems it can cause.
Thanks for all your advice! It was great!!!! Actually gonna go on our third one tomorrow night!! I Can’t believe how quick things are going! I took your advice, potsandpans, thanks! I didn’t tell my friends a thing!!!!!!!!!!! Not even that things are continuing. It’s great to keep “him” to myself! Hope to have good news real soon!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.