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This story was on the main page yesterday
When growing up oot in the 70s i experienced a smattering of anti-semitic attacks most verbal but a rare physical attack too with an apparent rise in outward anti-semitism what is the best way to respond?
If it’s physical call the police.
If it’s verbal keep your head low, ignore and move on. Remember you’re in galus.
Joseph,
If it’s physical call the police.
If it’s verbal keep your head low, ignore and move on. Remember you’re in galus.
Agreed, but if the verbal attack felt threatening, for example, if someone were following me or demanding I answer, I’d call the police then too.
Actually this happend to me a few weeks ago, verbal not physical
I let the person know in no uncertain terms, that some jews are not wimps and will not back down.
ZD: Eeks. Are you okay? Hope you’re okay.
Some people are violent dangerous though and it’s unpredictable. Like someone who gets in a road rage verbal altercation and then pulls out a weapon chas v’shalom.
ZD, what did you do?
I think walking away was smart in this case for the judge. I guess it depends on the case but doing something may not always work and vice versa
I am fine, I was not afraid. I doubt this individual will mess with anyone again.
If we dont stand up for our rights, they will trample on us
Meir Kahane also thought being a big mouth and having a JDL would keep himself safe in galus. He famously said he felt safer in America than in Eretz Yisroel. We saw where that got him.
And a good number of JDL leaders ended up in prison and got themselves on the State Department’s domestic terror list.
ZD – that is scary! Glad you’re okay. What happened?
Joseph do you support the Shomrim or the Shimra?
They have been known to engage in people without calling the police
Ignoring someone who is so outside of societal norms that s/he would verbally attack a random person is not necessarily a sign of weakness.
As I was walking home from Shul on Shabbos about a month ago, Someone decided to park their car in the middle of the cross walk blocking the ability to walk normally.
As I had to really walk around this car , this woman in the car started yelling at me how hitler did not complete the job. So I yelled back. I will not stand for someone telling that to me
zahavasdad,
As I was walking home from Shul on Shabbos about a month ago, Someone decided to park their car in the middle of the cross walk blocking the ability to walk normally.
Just curious, did you say something to the woman about how her car was blocking the walkway before she yelled the anti-Semitic slur? Or was it completely random?
As I had to really walk around this car , this woman in the car started yelling at me how hitler did not complete the job. So I yelled back. I will not stand for someone telling that to me
I think that behavior would constitute harassment. If I were in that situation and thinking clearly (but most likely I would not be), I’d either say nothing or simply, “that was a very unkind thing to say”. And then try to memorize the license plate number and call the police after Shabbos. Especially if there were witnesses (e.g., someone walking with you or nearby who you know).
The police would do nothing. The police have better than to do than deal with an Anti-Semetic verbal incident
I did not say anything, but I did look at the car and why they decided to block the crosswalk. They did not like that I was looking at why they were blocking the crosswalk
zahavasdad,
The police would do nothing. The police have better than to do than deal with an Anti-Semetic verbal incident
Perhaps not if you make their job easier, with a license plate number and witness(es).
The current mayor is Anti-police and he has tied their hands down.
You should be thankful more being reminded that you are in galus.
Is it safer to talk back to a woman or a man?
What if the woman calls her husband/guy-friend/etc to defend her?
For instance: What if there is an unpleasant verbal exchange, and she texts or calls him really quickly and within seconds this angry guy who thinks you’re picking on his “wife-woman/girl-friend/etc” shows up to the scene and becomes an even greater threat, AND/OR he follows you ~ G-d forbid on all of that.
LB – in my opinion, it’s best to walk away and say nothing in all or most situations. One exception might be in certain situations if you can come up with a sharp response. By sharp I mean intelligent (possibly humorous) and not confrontational. Try to avoid confrontation.
LU: Thank you. Def good to know.
I learned this lesson the hard way (Baruch Hashem could have been worse) last year when a customer made fun of another customer in a store and he was going on and on about her after she walked away.
Needless to say, the whole thing turned on me and it got intense and I literally was shaking because I was so afraid. I went home crying. My therapist told me that while it was the “right” thing to do, ideally, it was also not safe.
My therapist said that had she been in my shoes, she would have not said anything, in order to protect herself. Esp, since she has no clue who this person is and assumes that he could be capable of anything, including G-d forbid waiting outside the store when I’m walking back to my car and etc (which I did not even think of at the time).
Furthermore, someone who is that angry/deranged/skewed generally is not going to consider what I am saying or any logic for the matter. Instead the person will get defensive.
You brought up using humor which is very smart. And yes the response has to be intelligent. At the same time, some people will not hear even intelligence from someone based on some prejudice, such as “if a woman says it”, or “a Jewish person says it”, etc.
The person is judgmental and says something because he/she may believe that someone who is Jewish/other is less than.
Also, she told me that I should think about what I want out of saying something.
I wanted the person to know that speaking that way was unacceptable, inappropriate, and it was also inappropriate to get the employees agreeing with him (dunno if they meant it or were humoring him, but it was really gross to see the whole thing happening and not doing anything about it). Honestly, I wanted it to stop and make sure that this person did not do this again.
She said, if I remember correctly, that saying something was not going to change him and might get the employees in trouble. So what was the point here, esp since it put me in danger (even emotionally).
So by saying something to an anti-semitic anti-Jewish person, what would be the result?
I would want to report it to the police because they keep track of numbers and trends, or at least someone does, ideally.
Even if not, at least there is record of it. Proof. That one can go back to, especially if it becomes a pattern and one needs to take further legal action (yes even if it is in a parking lot or street, who knows if that person does this regularly and gets a kick out of it?).
It’s hard because there is no saying how things will turn out. Sometimes? barking back puts the offender in place (does it?). Sometimes it just escalates the hate. We aren’t in control of the yetzar hara here, since it’s someone else’s on full-force against us (even though of course it’s all Hashgacha Pratis), and that can make it ever more frightening.
Good thing for flight or fight. Moral of the story: Flight?
“You brought up using humor which is very smart. And yes the response has to be intelligent. At the same time, some people will not hear even intelligence from someone based on some prejudice, such as “if a woman says it”, or “a Jewish person says it”, etc.”
True. I don’t know if that would always be the response either. But it is possible that it could be in certain types of circumstance. You have to use your judgment about these things. In general, the best thing usually is to hold yourself upright, maintain your dignity, act as though you are unaffected by what they are saying, and walk away (if possible).
Then again about “Fight” ~ What was the camp of Jews during the Holocaust who fought back? They ended up dying, but did so after at least killing some Nazis.
Today people look at them like heroes.
Today people also look at the Jews who died with the Shema like heroes too.
“In general, the best thing usually is to hold yourself upright, maintain your dignity, act as though you are unaffected by what they are saying, and walk away (if possible). ” (LU)
I like that a lot. LOVE it actually.
Thank you!!! A++++++++++++++++++++
Makes me think of it like a nisayon. Hashem put me right there at that moment, not to do what comes naturally (which is to say something in defense), but to hold my tongue because He knows how much it means to do so and my energy would be better reserved for a mitzvah (which is hard to do when I’m crying and just want to sleep away the rest of the night to forget it).
It’s basically the secular Jews who consider the Jews who fought back physically to be the main heroes of the holocaust.
While the Torah world may possibly also consider them heroes, they have much more admiration for those Jews who fought by holding on to their Emunah and being moser nefesh (risking their lives) in order to keep the Mitzvos.
The Gedolim considered the establishment of 27 Nissan as Yom HaShoah to be very problematic for several reasons. One of those reasons, I believe, was that the date was chosen since it’s the date of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
The secular and zionist Jews wanted to commemorate that date as they were embarrassed about the fact that we “went like sheep to the slaughter”. They consider the Jews who fought back physically to be the main heroes of the holocaust, and those are the ones they want to remember since they are embarrassed about the others.
That is not the Torah approach. To us, the main heroes are the ones who gave up their lives in order to keep the Mitzvos – the ones who found a way to light the Chanuka Menora in the concentration camp even though it meant risking their lives, the ones who went to their deaths singing Ani Maamin and saying the Shema, knowing that this was Hashem’s Will and that they were dying Al Kiddush Hashem.
For us, those are the true heroes. We are not embarrassed about how we died and do not need to prove to the world that we are just like them and we can have an army just like them (I’m not against our having an army to defend ourselves- I am talking about the attitude that sometimes go with it, and the lack of awareness that our main defense is Torah and Mitzvos).
There is a story told that happened before/during the holocaust. There was a certain Jew (I think a Rav)in Germany who was careful to greet everyone he met. There was a certain goy whom he used to pass every morning, and he would always make sure to greet him, “gut morgen, Herr ____.”
World War II started, and the Rav was taken for selection, waiting to see if the nazi in charge would point him towards the gas chambers or towards life. When his turn came, he looked up and recognized the nazi as his former neighbor. “Gut Morgen, Herr___.” The nazi looked up, recongnized him, and pointed him towards life.
This story is always told to give over the message of the importance of greeting others.
But I always felt there was an incredible lesson in this story that I’m not sure if everyone gets.
We are not just talking about greeting others here. This man was a nazi, a rasha, a murderer, a horrible person!! We think it’s a Mitzvah to greet others because we should assume that everyone is a good person even if they are goyim,etc. But in this case, we know (now) that the guy was a horrible person. And yet the story is told over to show the importance of being nice to and greeting everyone.
The lesson I learned from the story is that it is always important to make a Kiddush Hashem and try to be nice to everyone no matter how awful they are (and I’m not saying it’s easy). You never know what harm you may be causing when you don’t act nicely to a goy (even if they deserve it), and you don’t know what good you can be causing when you do act nicely to a goy (even when they don’t seem to deserve it).
We really didn’t go like sheep to a slaughter (that in itself was a misconception).
Thank you for reminding me of the name of the event, Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
Makes sense that the secular Jews cared about looking tough to the outside world.
Personally, I have mixed feelings about the Jews who smuggled in Torahs and Jewish ritual holy objects because it put others lives in dangers. At the same time, without Torah and such, they would be living dead. Plus, we have stories about past greats who kept Judaism and teaching Torah in the atrocious conditions.
Another thing was the state of mind. They would/could die anyway for anything, but if they did not try to bring in Torahs, Channukiahs, etc, then surely there would be none.
So in summary from my first thought, I think that I resolved my mixed feelings to ones of gratitude and admiration… the Jews who fought to keep Torah alive during the Shoah were very heroic. Agreed <3
Yeah Lightbrite! You’re the best!
Were the Tags always in alphabetical order, or did they just rearrange themselves before my eyes?
Lilmod, you missed the strongest argument about Yom Hashoa- it’s official full name is Yom Hashoa V’hagvura, meaning they are commemorating the bravery and might of the victims, hence the choice of the Warsaw uprising as the date.
Lb, one thing about your story – perhaps your therapist was right in this particular circumstance. And I agree that is someone starts up with you, best to walk away so that it does not escalate. But if someone is starting up with someone else, the rules change- how can anyone stand by while another person is being hurt? It sounds like this guy was behaving an awful like a bully. On the playground, we would encourage kids to not let the bully get away with his actions, and that keeping silent is really supporting him. How can we expect our kids to do the right thing if we are afraid as adults to stand up to the bully?
Rav Menchem Ziemba who was one of the last Gedolim in the Warsaw Ghetto, Personally gave his blessing to the uprsing
LU
You story comes from the Yaffa Eliach (Who just passed away a few months ago) book, Chassidic tales from the Holocaust
The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising started on April 19, 1943 which was chosen because it was Hitlers birthday, which the Nazis considered a special holiday and in fact a jew was not allowed to even have this birthday and those who did were forced to change it.
Of course the Hebrew date changes every year, but its very appropirate to commemorate the Holocaust on the day which Hitler YM was born and was a special holiday in Nazi Germany
lightbrite,
Furthermore, someone who is that angry/deranged/skewed generally is not going to consider what I am saying or any logic for the matter. Instead the person will get defensive.
Yes, exactly. If someone is so outside the bounds of normal human decency that s/he would hurl abuse at someone, or say horrible things about someone to others as if that’s a normal thing to do, then there’s no way that person is safe to interact with.
In my mind, social disengagement is the most powerful response. Stony silence after “jokes” sends a pretty clear and strong message to most people that they have stepped outside of proper societal bounds. What seems more problematic in your case to me was that the store employees were “playing along” with the deranged customer. Rather than being treated like the loon he was, his destructive behavior was reinforced. Given that, the best response would probably still be coldness and silence towards the offending employees, but lodging a complaint with management might be appropriate too. The store managers should know if a customer had a bad experience in the store.
Thanks Avram in MD
The weird thing is that our president can speak so degradingly and gets support for it.
WTP: “Lilmod, you missed the strongest argument about Yom Hashoa- it’s official full name is Yom Hashoa V’hagvura, meaning they are commemorating the bravery and might of the victims, hence the choice of the Warsaw uprising as the date.”
WTP – thank you for that clarification. I know of a few other reasons, but I forgot (or didn’t know) that reason.
One big reason was the fact that all major tragedies since the Churban are connected to the Churban and supposed to be commemorated on Tisha B’Av in order to emphasize the connection. The Gedolim felt that the secularists were deliberately trying to place the holocaust in its own category and disconnect it from the Churban.
I hadn’t mentioned that in my previous post because it wasn’t directly connected to the topic at hand. Your comment is, however.
There was an article in the Jewish Observer in 1977 (and no, I didn’t read it in 1977 in case anyone is trying to figure out how old I am) with a translation of a speech by Rav Hutner, zatsal explaining the problems with Yom HaShoah. If anyone is interested, you can find it online derech Google.
ZD: “You story comes from the Yaffa Eliach (Who just passed away a few months ago) book, Chassidic tales from the Holocaust”
ZD, thanks for the info.I didn’t know the source. I did not actually read it there, but it is possible that it was reprinted elsewhere or that I heard the story orally. It’s also possible that more than one person knows the story and published it.
Either way, thank you. It is important to say over things in the name of the one being quoted – and this is THE time to be makpid on that since we learn from Megilas Esther.
ZD: “Rav Menchem Ziemba who was one of the last Gedolim in the Warsaw Ghetto, Personally gave his blessing to the uprsing”
ZD – thank you very much for that information! I wasn’t sure what the Gedolim felt about it; all I knew was that they consider those that fought spiritually to be greater heroes. That does not in any way take away from the greatness of those who were moiser nefesh to fight physically (when it was warranted), and I did not mean to imply that it did.
I was not sure how the Gedolim felt about it so on the one hand I didn’t want to imply that they approved in case they didn’t, but at the same time, I didn’t want to imply that they were not heroes as well in case the Gedolim did feel so.
That is why I very carefully wrote “While the Torah world may possibly also consider them heroes,” in order to avoid erring in either direction.
I very much appreciate your post since I would not want anyone to come away thinking they were not heroes if in fact they were. And that was certainly not the point of my post at all.
Thank you!
Lilmod: Here’s an excerpt from Rav Hutnet ztl’s Jewish Observer article:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/modern-orthodox-judaism/page/4#post-106892
ZD – One of the problems the Gedolim have with the date is the fact that it’s in Nissan when we are not allowed to mourn. That is much more important than the fact that it is yemach shemo’s birthday.
Also, as I stated above, it is important to connect it to the Churban and to view it as a continuation of Jewish History, the Churban and our Galus.
I dont know if this will go through the mods, Its from the OU website, but they can edit it out if they want
Its a Responsa from Rav Efraim Oshay who was the Posek of the Kovono Ghetto and wrote a sefer after the war about the questions he got
This one was about if it was permitted to escape the Ghetto and join the Partisans, He ruled it was permissible
removed
Joseph – thank you.
Sometimes if you quote from a torah website the mods let it though. You can always quote from Hebrew Books. I am just not sure if they consider the OU to be a torah website or not
” One of the problems the Gedolim have with the date is the fact that it’s in Nissan when we are not allowed to mourn”
thats a pretend reason
If you think long and hard you will come up with a mourning period that takes place during Nissan commemorated by many members of Klal yisroel that lasts 33 day…
The real reason is WTP’s reason above. furthermore it is meant to lead in to yom ha’atzmaout which occurs a week later as a sort of Galus/geula contrast whcih of course the charedi world opposes.
You cannot celebrate during the sefira.
Lilmod, he did more than give his blessing. He financed it.
Joseph, are you saying that if a berit mila occurs during the sefira the baalei berit may not celebrate? The Torah obligation to thank Hashem for the state certainly pushes off the aveilut of the sefira, which is only a minhag.
Physical attack? Jew Jitsu.
“The Torah obligation to thank Hashem for the state certainly pushes off the aveilut of the sefira, which is only a minhag.”
The word “certainly” is out of place in this sentence. It sounds like you are referring to listening to live music during sefira. While there are Rabbanim who posken that way, they are a minority. You can choose to follow that opinon if you like (and if that’s how your Rabbanim hold), but you can’t use the term “certainly” when referring to something that most of Gedolei Yisrael say is assur.
And the aveilus of sefira is halacha and not something to be taken lightly by saying “it’s just a minhag” which implies that it’s not halacha and doesn’t have to be kept.
“You cannot celebrate during the sefira.”
I have actually never heard that given as a reason for not celebrating Yom HaAtzmaut. Do you know anyone who says that?
Even though I do not believe in the celebration of Yom HaAtzmaut, I would agree with Avi that the fact that it’s in Nissan is not a reason not to celebrate it (unless you have sources stating that this is a reason).
My argument with Avi is that he referrred to the “aveilut” of Yom HaAtzmaut which sounds like he meant the live music aspect (is that what you meant, Avi? If not, your post should have been phrased more carefully, I think), and the fact that he used the term “certainly”.
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