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mod=moderator or mod-ern orthodox?
gavra. thats pointely not true. MO believes theres what to take out of mada that is chochma and not necessarily in accordance with tora. why learn shakespeare and quote it,(vihameivin yovin) aint no particular torah values there. and in regard to mixed schools as a kiruv/bidieved- how did that somegow grow to include regular MO totally observant ppl?? this ones really tough
Believe me, I am not the right person to add much to this discussion. However, I do know a few people in the MO ccommunity in Toronto. The women all cover their heads with either a teichel or a sheitel, and they never, ever wear pants. The children go to single gender schools and camps from kindergarten (or even earlier).They do allow their children to choose their own mates, usually without using a shadchan.
minyan gal i surmise ur from toronto. im not probing. if u kno the situation there then you kno that not all the MO women there cover there heads. i can think of names. alot of them.
why learn shakespeare and quote it,(vihameivin yovin) aint no particular torah values there
Chochma B’Goyim T’aamin? Besides, shaychus Shakespeare (or Rush & Shawn, for that matter, who are quoted often by the Yeshivish Olam).
You completely misunderstood what I said. Go back & read it again.
chochma bagoyim doesnt mean to apreciate the twisted musings of a rabid anti semite.it means scientific theory and fact.
How about Sir Issac Newton?
Discoverer of Basic Physics and Calculus (Also discovered by Leibitz)
How about Gallieo Gallei?
Discover of Modern Astronomy
MO believes theres what to take out of mada that is chochma and not necessarily in accordance with tora
Is it or not? If it is Toradig (or can be), what is the issue? If not, then why not bring in other Kofrim, as they are not “Orthodox”?
Or are you one of those who believes that to answer the lice question, you stick your fingers in your ears and scream very loud I Can’t hear you, You Kofer!
In a sense Guttenberg saved the talmud
Prior to the invetion of the printing press, Gemorahs and Tanach’s had to hand written. It was difficult to obtain an hand written Gemorahs.
Today everyone can have their own Gemorah for a cheap price (Imagine having to handwrite Baba Basra if you wanted your own copy)
it means scientific theory and fact.
Or wordplay.
do you really believe that CbGT means shakespeare. i happen to read shakespeare. how many of his witticisms and jokes have an inappropriate connotation and can put things in your head that Hashem frowns upon. and if you still argue thats chochma and should be read then CbGT must just mean the mitzius- not that you should learn it.
do you really believe that CbGT means shakespeare
It means the druggie on the street (and also anyone else). ANYONE who has a point you can learn from them. Anyone.
There’s something I’d like to add here. Yiddishkeit in America in the early 1900’s and in the 40’s,50’s,60’s,70’s was weak. Many mitzvos weren’t observed properly. As Yiddishkeit has come of age in America, with the growth of education and yeshivos, there has been much improvement. The “behavioral” modern orthodox are an outgrowth of a lack of knowlege and lack of Jewish education.
Many “behaviorially” modern orthodox people I know DO NOT KEEP a lot of the details of Halacha that their Rabbonim WANT THEM TO. It’s not really right to battle with them, as they are uneducated as to their heritage – the details of cooking on Shabbos, making Brachos on food, tznius, davening 3 times a day, etc. They are really tinokos shenisb’oo. Their descendents as well – unless they are inspired to LOOK FURTHER as I personally was.
Other than that, let each live his own. A person may disagree with the other’s haskafos towards the secular world and science, but each person has to work on improving him/herself, as he will one day meet his Maker. I personally feel the “isolationist” path is more correct, but I know I have my own avodas Hashem and own battles to fight as each person does. I no longer need to try to convince others to follow my way.
Gavra. how can anything detrimental to your spiritual well-being be something you are mitzuva to do. sounds kinda dumb. also i think that shakespeare is more spiritually threatening then the druggy on your street
Gavra. how can anything detrimental to your spiritual well-being be something you are mitzuva to do.
Shaychus?
I’m not saying be like him, I’m saying you can learn from him.
People dont read shakespeare for “innapropriateness” or innuendo.
Because Shakespeare is in an older form of English, those kinds of things go over most peoples heads anyway. One is not allowed to change Shakespeare (Its considered Heretical) .
Now when on PERFORMS Shakespeare some artistic license is permitted, but the script must remain the same, but again people arent watching Shakespeare being performed for those kinds of things.
One does not read or look at Classics in that way.
“It’s not really right to battle with them, as they are uneducated as to their heritage – the details of cooking on Shabbos, making Brachos on food, tznius, davening 3 times a day, etc. They are really tinokos shenisb’oo. Their descendents as well – unless they are inspired to LOOK FURTHER as I personally was.”
So why didn’t their educators educate them?
They try.
The Rabbonim of their shuls try. With adults it’s always very difficult to affect change.
In school the teachers and Rabbaim do try to have an influence on them. Many idealistic girls and Rabbeim teach in day schools. Many teenagers also become much frummer after their year in Eretz Yisroel.
Today, in addition to movies and TV, they are also combatting the outer society’s permissiveness and promiscuousness, computer games, the internet and texting. Not an easy battle.
kollel_wife…thanks for the sweeping generalization…
I don’t understand what you’re calling a sweeping generalization.
kollel_wife…your post is based on a few people you know and while you don’t say it directly, sounds like a generalization of the MO world….I’m sorry if I offended you, but that is the “vibe” I got from your post….
Agh!! what i mean is- even if your not reading it for the unappropriate things they are there and youre still reading them and theyre still making an impression on that little piece of Hashem inside you. do you think hashem gets nachas when you go out lokking for the “chochma” in shakespeare?! please!
There is no definition to MO. It means anything anyone wants it to. The common denominator is that they incorporate into their system of values – good/bad right/wrong worthwhile/worthless – those things that the goyim value, as opposed to regular Orthodox Jews who only value what the Torah says is valuable. We use the Torah’s value system as opposed to non-Jewish value systems.
Their valuing of non-Jewish ideals has led them to violate the Torah in frightful ways. They have incorporated into their normative behavior various strains of mingling of the genders – everything from plain friendships to mixed swimming or dancing – depending on how “modern” orthodox they are; heretical and idolatrous ideas such as zionism is endemic in their communities; recently, several modern orthodox rabbis have come out stating that they believe in evolution, and/or at the very least, that one may believe in it; the belief that certain statements of Chazal are false; and those movies, by the way, are prohibited as well per the law of moshav leitzim; and the whole secular-education-not-only-for-parnasah-but-as-a-means-unto-itself is against an open halachha as well. There is more.
In other words, they will, as a community, trample on the halochos that modern society doesn’t like: “fundamentalist” beliefs, separation of the genders, and discriminating (sic) against women (such as their teaching gemora to girls, another open violation of halachah).
In places where the Torah does not conflict with the values of modern society, such as how much moror to eat on pesach or how many times to daven each day, they will, as a rule, not bother to rebel.
And its not just kulos. They have made-up chumras as well, where being machmir is demanded by their goyishe value system. For example – those rabbis who will tell you everyone is obligated to move to Eretz Yisroel – which is a result of nationalistic ideals, not Torah ones – or when a “scientific” breakthrough supposedly enlightens us to new discoveries that our grandfathers were unaware of – there you will find the modern orthodox jumping at a chance to be machmir… as in techeiles.
Their religious behavior is driven by goyish values mixed with religion, and results in a grotesque hybrid of illegitimate leniencies and baseless chumras – and which extreme positions they will take on both ends of the spectrum are as predictable as the sun: where goyishe values of ideals enter, thats where youll find their halacha “opinions.”
They’ll cherry pick, out of context if need be, what they want from whom they want, once again, not based on Torah principles but on goyishe values. So they’ll say they Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch believed one should have secular knowledge (they distort his position terribly), but when you tell them the same Rav Hirsch considered zionism to be heresy they’ll point you to Rav Kook; yet when you tell them that Rav Kook believed women shouldnt have public position – and they shouldnt even be given the right to vote – theyll say they dont follow him on that.
There was no “modern orthodox” leaders that created their movement the way l’havdil the Baal Shem Tov started Chasidus or Rav Yisroel Salanter the Musser Movement. Instead, modern orthodoxy is just a bunch of people who like what the goyim think and do, and to one extent or another, morph Judaism to fit in, and then they spend their time putting major effort into figuring out what modern orthodox means.
Toi/LMA:
While I must admit I’ve never studied RSRH’s interpretation of Torah im Derech Eretz in any depth, I always thought that the MO hold he meant that Secular Studies have inherent value, while the Chareidim hold he was just showing that Torah can if necessary coexist with the secular world. Therefore, according to the MO their philosophy is very much based upon R’ Hirsch’s teachings.
simcha613:
“I’ve hear stories of people who suffer from substance abuse issues (and I imagine the same story exists for people suffering from psychological problems and family issues) whose families refuse to acknowledge the problem. I was told that one reason for this problem is because the families involved didn’t want to expose their families to secular society who would be able to provide the help necessary.”
I would imagine that a far greater contributing factor is good old-fashioned denial.
“I’m sure there are also people who refuse to get jobs and acquire a parnassah for their family because they don’t want to be involved in secular society.”
OK, that I agree to. However, I still think it is far better to run the risk of people not getting jobs than it is to run the risk of being too affected by the secular society around us.
kollel_wife:
“There’s something I’d like to add here. Yiddishkeit in America in the early 1900’s and in the 40’s,50’s,60’s,70’s was weak. Many mitzvos weren’t observed properly. As Yiddishkeit has come of age in America, with the growth of education and yeshivos, there has been much improvement. The “behavioral” modern orthodox are an outgrowth of a lack of knowlege and lack of Jewish education.”
That’s a nice theory, but according to that there would only be older people in the BMO fold, which is simply not the case. So what you write may indeed be the cause of the older generation of BMOs, today’s generation doesn’t have that excuse.
mikehall12382:
kollel_wife wasn’t making a “sweeping generalization” about all the MO – this was said exclusively about the Behaviorally Modern, those who are lax with the halacha. And I think she’s judging them very favorably.
Feif Un:
“Modern Orthodoxy advocates learning secular education for 2 purposes. First is for parnassah… Second is to better understand things. For example, learning trigonometry can better help someone to better understand parts of Maseches Sukkah.”
Really? I thought that MO attributed inherent value to secular knowledge.
“For example, most halachic medical experts come from MO circles, not from chareidi circles.”
True, but its only fair to point out that most halachic experts come from Chareidi society.
Toi:
“can any1 address my conundrum above? Why does the MO camp have co=ed camps and mingling; and its considered accepted and not dangerous. I’ve never heard of an MO rav coming out against it. please explain.”
Actually, I was just talking to somebody who grew up MO then “flipped out” and became a Rebbi about what exactly constitutes MO, and he told me that his MO 11th grade Rebbi said that there are three things the MO have “different views” on then the Chareidim – college, Zionism, and inter-gender relationships (as in a friendly relationship, not a romantic one). So not only are most MO Rabbonim not condemning the co-ed Mo institutions, some are (or at least were) actually condoning them.
(I apolgize for the longness of this post, but it is addressing about a page and half worth of comments.)
mw13- thank you. i think that aftewr your post no further arguements are ever necessary ad oilum. how can these relationships not be considered a spiritual sakonnoh to any honest thinking yid. and for that to be part of an idealogy is downright nuts. i think the debates r over.
mikehall12382-
Actually I grew up modern orthodox. I’m not sure what vibes you were getting. But most of the parents of my friends went to afternoon Talmud Torah or maybe the fathers went to Yeshiva for elementary school. Many daven without moving lips, eat without a bracha, on a regular weekday don’t bentch, etc., etc. They are really tinokos she’nisbeoo – not aware of Halacha and when made aware of it, don’t find it so binding. This is true for the older generation.
For the next generation, “why don’t their educators educate them? ” They did. The next generation is much more educated and keeps Halacha much better. The teachers are now teaching the next generation and are battling the computer/internet/ipod issues but are still educating them.
My point was to be tolerant and not judge others and realize eveyone IS COMING FROM A DIFFERENT PLACE.
If someone else follows his Daas Torah and is constantly trying to improve, I don’t need to try to convince to follow my way, (even though I don’t think his is the ideal.) And if he doesn’t follow any Dass Torah and doesn’t keep Halacha and mitzvos so well, it’s only because he grew up in a partial spiritual desert.
What’s the point of trying to convince the YU guy to become “Chareidi”? Let’s all just work on improving our mitzvah observance. That’s a goal we all share. If he then sees that in my lifestyle things to be admired, I’ll certainly be happy to welcome him.
MO people dont go to Talmud Torah’s , They go to Day Schools like Ramaz or Yeshiva of Flatbush
I’m talking in the 1930’s. My grandparent’s generation couldn’t afford yeshiva, certainly not for girls.
Don’t get me wrong. I disagree with the Zionist and feminists of some of todays MO. But what’s the point. They’re not going to be convinced. Let’s just all work on the goal of improving ourselves, share that as something in common. Trying to prove someone else wrong doesn’t work. Making them your friend and being someone they can respect will accomplish a lot more.
Joe/Stamper:
Interesting points. It takes the idea and narrows it to the view of “what can I get away with”. However, it also narrows the people who are MO (as per your definition). For example, Dr. Hall (who is not looking for to “cherry pick”) would not be MO according to your definition. I think you are defining MO the way MO would define “traditional”.
Toi:
Arrr!! back 🙂 The correct day for this is September 19 (TLAP day).
I don’t know of anyone who reads Shakespeare to get the “Chochma” involved, usually it is read for credit (and yes, I can quote him as well from my college days). Then again, I’m not “MO” (I don’t think) in the “standard” definition of the term.
Shiver me timbers!
Shiver me timbers! is not from Shakespeare
Shiver me timbers! is not from Shakespeare
Angels and Ministers of grace defend us!
That was for Pirate day. It goes with the Arrgh!! of Toi.
LOL
I agree one generally only reads Shakespeare because you are forced to.
I personally am more of a non-fiction historical reader
Stamper…nevermind, whats the point…You seem to know it all and have all the answers. No point in discussing it…
What i can’t stand is when people judge others by these meaningless labels. Not all “MO” people are the same nor are all “charedi” people. You have exteremely shtark people from the “MO” comunity and real jerks who create tremendous chillul hashem from the more yeshivish crowd and vice versa. The point is labels mean nothing and are things that only we people care about. They are absolute shtuss and politics don’t exist in shamayim. “
There is no one answer to this question, because “modern” is defined differently by different people. For example, I am considered “modern” by some of my previous Yeshiva classmates and probably some people here. I am also considered “not-modern” by some of my previous Yeshiva classmates and probably some posters here. Modernity is in the eyes of the beholder. And, as many said, quite unimportant, as long as we all strive to be worthy of being called G-d’s chosen people.
There are non co-Ed MO schools: shulamith, derech hatorah, for instance. Kids who go to mixed schools would not necessarily go to public school otherwise (that’s ridiculous to say). I know TONS of kids who’s parents sent them to Yeshiva of Flatbush, because it offers an amazing education (but if it didn’t exist, their parents would NEVER send their kids to public school). Kids grow up to be tops in their fields and very studious, many of them getting into Ivy league schools. What I find problematic is that sometimes torah can be perceived as more of an intellectual pursuit. I think a lot depends upon the family the kids come from. Those from families that encourage Torah as a way of life will choose to learn it that way. I personally know several AMAZING girls who learned in Yeshiva of Flatbush who went on to marry kollel guys (Lakewood included). One girl I know from Shulamith married a Belzer chasid and moved to kiryat Belz in Yerushalayim. Many girls who learned in Michlala in eretz Yisroel are so medakdek bemitzvos and marry men who learn, become rabbeim, teach, etc, and the girls are NO different in their frumkeit than any bais yaakov girl. MO doesn’t mean devoid of Torah. These girls are not baalos teshuva. They learned and continued learning, and internalized the lessons the way any bais yaakov girl must do.
MO is like a rainbow. You will find those from the very weak in shmiras hamitzvos to the very strong. The philosophy is something else to discuss. They don’t advocate not listening to rabbeim, SOME rely on kulos determined by rabbeim.
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