What makes someone Modern Orthodox?

See: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-is-mo

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I think it means they are both modern and orthodox

first step is to visit Yeshivat Har Etzion, they have a web site…

enough already of different groups here dissecting the other groups.

we are all yidden , we are all brothers and sisters.

lets try harder as of today and every day to care more about our fellow yid instead of mocking them for doing something different than yu do or i do or someone else does.

ahavas yisroel, that includes all of us…..TOGETHER

Excellent post, shlishi.

if you think i discussed the reality, i didn’t discuss the full reality, because there are factions of modern orthodoxy that are actually much more yeshivish.

Every rule has exceptions and every group has fringe members on both sides of the spectrum. This does not mean that there are no rules, or no groups.

Well, the Chareidish ideal is for everyone to be a tzadik gamur.

IMHO, in the theoretical sense, MO and Chareidim are not that different. They both believe in the 13 ikkarim of the Rambam, and are shomrei Halachah kedas ukedin. They value Torah and believe Jews should be different than the Goyim. The main difference is how you view secular society. Chareidim view secular society as dangerous and one should only interact with secular society when necessary. MO believes that while secular society is dangerous, it also has a lot to offer, so we should use secular society for its advantages, and stay away from the negatives.

Unfortunately, significant members of both movements took these values too far. Many Chareidim are insular to the extreme, even to the extent where they are being hurt. Many MO’s use secular society when they shouldn’t, and are exposed and influenced in negative ways.

This is why people think MO is about being excessively meikil and being like the Goyim, but it’s not true. MO is about being Jewish, and distinct from the Goyim while using secular society for its positives. Unfortunately, too many people went too far into secular society, and are giving true MO’s a bad name.

As others have pointed out, there are two different types of MO: the Ideologically Modern and the Behaviorally Modern.

The Ideologically MO have several main hashkafic differences with the Charaedim:

1) The MO believe in trying to fit the Torah together with the modern world and its culture, while the Chareadim believe in keeping away from any foreign culture as much as possible. This debate is the root cause of differences in how secular education, movies and TV, etc. are looked upon in the Modern and Chareadi worlds.

2) The MO usually hold a positive view of Zionism, while the Chareadim look at it as foreign and dangerous.

3) The MO have a much narrower view of the Mesorah than the Chareadim do. This gives the MO much more flexibility in deciding how to approach any situation. Also, this can arguably be called the root cause of all the other hashkafic differences that exist between the Chareadim and the MO.

4) The MO advocate giving women a larger and more public role in Judaism, while the Chareadim advocate a more traditional role for women.

5) The Chareidim often try to make sure that they follow every possible halachic opinion (chumros), which is not as common in the MO world.

The Behaviorally MO do not necessarily share any of these hashkafos. They are simply “modern” in the sense that they are not traditional. The Behaviorally MO are often far more lax with the Halacha than either the Chareidim or the Ideologically MO. They will often rely on the most lenient halachic opinion, and sometimes even (CH”V) ignore the Halacha altogether.

(The above was my comment on the “What is MO” thread.)

mewho:

“enough already of different groups here dissecting the other groups. we are all yidden , we are all brothers and sisters. lets try harder as of today and every day to care more about our fellow yid instead of mocking them for doing something different than yu do or i do or someone else does.”

I don’t see anybody “mocking” anybody else here at all. Actually, I think this is a pretty cool-headed spate of discussions on the MO vs Chareidi outlook on life.

If I am not mistaken, in a word, the Modern Orthodox ideal is integration, while the Chareidi ideal is segregation.

Another major differentiation – secular knowledge in and of itself can be part of a person’s growth as a Jew according to the MO, while the Chareidi view is that although it may be acceptable in order to learn a trade or to learn to be able to help others, college would never be acceptable in a world where food came down from heaven and no one ever got sick.

Both groups believe in the Torah one hundred percent, and the fact that there are extremists and fringe elements and people who don’t uphold what they officially believe in both factions does not change this fact.

mw13 R’ hirschs hashkafa of tora im derech eretz and MOs hashkafa of torah umaada are not only not alike- they are diametrically opposed. see artscrols biography of r hirsch. r hirsch held that torah reigns supreme and with it secular subjects can be understood better whereas r norman lamm (quoted in the biography -not me-) says that both torah and secular subjects have what to glean from each other. look there. if i keep writing il;l get modded. also worthy to note that r hirsch was emphatically opposed to the state of israel and for some reason MO decided that r hirsch had their agenda. again this i believe to be factual- see his biography by artscroll. he actually mazintained a position closer to satmar then the rest of the jewish community. i know everyone will say i’m crazy and ignorant but this is historically accurate. kol tuv

mw13-

As I said before, (I think) Chareidim believe that secular society is dangerous and should only be used when necessary. Insular to the extreme means not using it even when it’s necessary.

I’ve hear stories of people who suffer from substance abuse issues (and I imagine the same story exists for people suffering from psychological problems and family issues) whose families refuse to acknowledge the problem. I was told that one reason for this problem is because the families involved didn’t want to expose their families to secular society who would be able to provide the help necessary. I’m sure there are also people who refuse to get jobs and acquire a parnassah for their family because they don’t want to be involved in secular society. Also, imho, being too insular also goes hand in hand with a lack of respect for the government and its laws (in both the USA and Israel, though I imagine this problem in Israel has far deeper philosophical roots than the problem in the USA).

“i know everyone will say i’m crazy and ignorant…”

Not me. RSRH is greatly respected and admired in Satmar.

Perhaps. Let it be clear though that I specifically wrote secular knowledge in and of itself can be part of a person’s growth as a Jew according to the MO. There is no true MO philosophy that says Torah and halacha are not also necessary components in a Jew’s personal growth.

Lomed, from my understanding this thread is not about debating the truth or falsehood of the tenets of Modern Orthodoxy. It is about identifying the beliefs and perspectives of either group. If you want to discuss whether certain concepts are true or not, why not start a new thread? I may even be on your side… (I never identified myself as MO)

Oy vey kids: So you are honestly saying that you go attend college and dedicate your life for your degree and career in order to reach a higher level of Ahavas Hashem?

Metrodriver: The Yekkish community and Rav Breuer Zt”l were vehemently against Modern Orthodoxy. RSRH held one should get a secular education in order to make a parnassah for the purpose of serving Hashem. He never held that secular education in a goal for itself. Anyone who is a true Orthodox Jew believes that there is only one goal for a Jew in this world, and that is to serve Hashem, and that’s all.

Modern Orthodoxy advocates learning secular education for 2 purposes.

First is for parnassah – MO does not push the kollel lifestyle, and believes a person should provide for his family.

Second is to better understand things. For example, learning trigonometry can better help someone to better understand parts of Maseches Sukkah. We all believe that everything is contained within the Torah, so we learn secular knowledge while recognizing that it all comes from Hashem, and will help us better understand things in a religious context. For example, most halachic medical experts come from MO circles, not from chareidi circles.

can any1 address my conundrum above? Why does the MO camp have co=ed camps and mingling; and its considered accepted and not dangerous. I’ve never heard of an MO rav coming out against it. please explain. and if that really is accepted it doesn’t sound like the type of people who have real sh’eefos in avodas hashem

Toi said: “can any1 address my conundrum above? Why does the MO camp have co=ed camps and mingling; and its considered accepted and not dangerous. I’ve never heard of an MO rav coming out against it.”

Against it:

Rav Mayer Twersky – http://www.torahweb.org/audioFrameset.html#audio=rtwe_091006

Rav Mordechai Willig –

http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/711749/Rabbi_Mordechai_I._Willig/Tzniut

All real Modern Orthodox rabbonim are against the breaches in tznius which are all to prevalent in some Modern Orthodox communities. Unfortunately, however, there is nothing they can do about it.

As i understand the difference between MO an R’ Hirsch. MO beliueves there is what to glean from secular study that cannot be gleaned from the torah, and, by studying both, a person can come to realize a bigger fuller picture. tora im derech eretz does not.

Modern Orthodoxy advocates learning secular education for 2 purposes.

First is for parnassah – MO does not push the kollel lifestyle, and believes a person should provide for his family.

Second is to better understand things. For example, learning trigonometry can better help someone to better understand parts of Maseches Sukkah. We all believe that everything is contained within the Torah, so we learn secular knowledge while recognizing that it all comes from Hashem, and will help us better understand things in a religious context. For example, most halachic medical experts come from MO circles, not from chareidi circles.

I’m going to have to make a distinction (that others have made as well, such as Harry M.).

There is the concept of “Torah U’Mada”, which can mean:

1: Mada is worth studying independently of Torah, being an alternative (or personal) means to certain Mitzva ends.

2: Mada is useful as a support to Torah.

3: Torah can be learned fully only with the Mada needed to understand it.

4: Mada is worth knowing without any other motive.

There is also “Torah Im Parnassah”, which is generally defined as learning but studying enough to support one’s family, including paying the Rabbaim that teach your children.

Then there is “Just Torah”, as Rabbi Dr. Lander ZTL put it when asked. He believed only Torah can be important in one’s life. Parnassah is a side point due to the Klallah of Adam HaRishon, that people have to do Hishtadlus. But there is no “Im” that can put anything with Torah.

Point being, any of these can be discribed (besides for perhaps the last Torah U’Mada point) as either “Yeshivish” or “MO”.

Charadi (as per the “standard definition”), on the other hand, views work (and Parnassah) as a b’Dieved for everyone, no matter what level they are up to in Bitachon.

Shlishi, great post.

As i understand the difference between MO an R’ Hirsch. MO beliueves there is what to glean from secular study that cannot be gleaned from the torah, and, by studying both, a person can come to realize a bigger fuller picture.

I don’t believe that is the case. I would have put it (for at least one “strand” of MO):

MO beliueves (sic) there is what to glean from secular study that is easier to understand from that source than being gleaned from the torah,