What makes someone a Charadi?

Lomed Mkol Adam-

You have either never read the book or you are ignorant in the hashkafos of litvishe yeshivos. The book is nothing other than an elegant and eloquent interpretation of Sha’ar Daled of Nefesh Hachayim, and that is clear to anyone that has gone through the yeshiva system and heard the classic shmuessin on the value and the purpose of limud hatorah.

And please, “traditional litvishe haskafa” does not talk about “hergesh” and what not. Case in point, learning lishma means l’sheim torah, not l’shem shamayim, as unfeeling as that sounds. There’s a reason for the term “kalte litvak.”

Yitayningwut: Yes, Lishma means learning ‘sheim Torah’, but only after internalizing what the concept of Torah means. See my earlier posts on this thread where I clearly explain the Chareidi-MO split regarding understanding the concept of what Torah and Limud Hatorah means, and how this dramatically effects the self identification of a Chareidi vs. an MO Jew.

I am just curious, If it is a translated nefesh hachaim how is it the basis of the Modern-Orthodox hashkafos. The MO are not known for their dikduk in halachah

Yitayningwut: I’m not splitting hairs. There is a root difference in Hashkafa between Chareidi Jewry and MO Jewry. I was just identifying what the root difference is. All the behavioral differences between the two communities are just a natural outcome of this root Hashkafic difference. Rav Yosha Ber made changes to the traditional way of thought of the Orthodox Jewish community; this is why his followers gave their philosophy a new name called “Modern Orthodoxy”.

I think the divisions and lack of understanding and animosity I see in the CR between yeshivish and MO is a new york thing…in other parts, like Montreal although there are two distinct communities, there is alot of cross over…there is no hatred, but mutual respect and love…we shop and eat at the same places, and support one another’s institutions…seeing some people’s negative view of the MO world has been eye opening…I am surprised by the hatred, sorry but that is exactly what it is…thank HAshem I live in Montreal and don’t have be surrounded by such Jew on Jew hatred. This place has been an eye opener for me….we are our own worst enemmies. I read the posts here and just shake my head.

Mikehall: I don’t hate human beings, never mind Jews. It’s just hard for me to tolerate MO philosophy. Maybe in out of town communities people aren’t so philosophical, so they don’t care enough to argue about their philosophy.

lomed: You really think people are less “philosophical” in that other world you call “out of town?” Do you believe it’s something in the water here that makes Brooklyn people (only the charedim though) much more hashkafically inclined? 🙂 If anything I would say the opposite, but this thread is for MO/charedi prejudice. We have other threads for the Brooklyn/OOT kind.

Yitayningwut: I didn’t say they have no meaning at all in what they do; of course that would be a ridiculous statement, given that all religions in the world carry at least some meaning to their adherents. I wrote that they don’t recognize the uniqueness of Judaism, and that Judaism is the only religion that carries with it the concept of “Deveikus”, meaning that every Jew is literally connected with God. This ‘Deveikus’ concept opens up a deep dimension in a person’s feelings, which only grows with each Torah learning and mitzvah which he subsequently does. This is the value which I claimed as central and exclusive to Chareidi philosophy.

If the reality is so far removed from the ideal, something must be wrong with the ideal.

msseeker:You mean like the ben-Torah in the Mashgiach’s shmuessen vs the one in the room with him?

We’ve been through this already. Now to take it in order for the very last time. We know what goes on in your yeshivos too. Lies you tell about us make no difference. One guy not being ashamed of something he should be ashamed of vs. an organized coverup of something far worse. I normally don’t go “us vs. them” in MO/charedi debates but your hatred made me lose control slightly. Not mochel.

Itchsrulik, Mseeker: Let’s cut out this tit for tat, we’re supposed to be discussing philosophies not people.

Itchsrulik: You don’t need to become a Chareidi; but I wouldn’t recommend identifying yourself as MO either. How about being a true Jew, not Chareidi and not MO?

The Chareidi community doesn’t have a drop in the bucket — less than 1% — of teens being mechallel Shabbos like texting that the OU website quotes a figure of 50% in the MO community.

they don’t recognize the uniqueness of Judaism,

Of course they do. Don’t be motzi la’az like that. They just believe that there is what so be gained from the outside world as well.

and that Judaism is the only religion that carries with it the concept of “Deveikus”

That isn’t really true. Other religions also have a similar idea. We just believe that their way of getting there is, obviously, mistaken. But that’s neither here nor there.

This ‘Deveikus’ concept opens up a deep dimension in a person’s feelings, which only grows with each Torah learning and mitzvah which he subsequently does. This is the value which I claimed as central and exclusive to Chareidi philosophy.

“D’veikus” per se, as you refer to it, is a mystical concept, wihch your typical yeshiva bachur does not meet up with except in a couple of paragraphs of Mesilas Yesharim. In the yeshivas I’ve been to they didn’t talk about d’veikus that much, more about shleimus, and if anything, about “being davuk to the Torah,” I think that to say that “d’veikus” is the central chareidi philosophy is wholly incorrect. The truth is I think it’s a joke to say that there is a real “central philosophy” in the litvishe velt. Machshava isn’t central at all. As I once heard a litvishe Rosh Yeshiva say when there was a well known Machshava speaker in town and guys went to hear him – “You enjoyed it, yeh? Nu, but Teireh is the fleish and potatos!”

Yitayningwut: You got it all wrong. Deveikus is a unique concept exclusive to Judaism. No other religion believes that man can actually be connected with God.

I don’t think you are familiar at all with Litvish Hashkafa; the Deveikus concept is absolutely the foundation of Litvish Hashkafa. According to Litvish Hashkafa, being ‘Daveik’ to Torah is in essence being Daveik with Hashem, because the Torah is an impartion from God Himself as GAW quoted from the Gemara/Midrash [see previous page].

Lomed Mkol Adam-

Yitayningwut: You got it all wrong. Deveikus is a unique concept exclusive to Judaism. No other religion believes that man can actually be connected with God.

I don’t believe the mods would let me quote sefarim hachitzonim here, nor should they. However, you are wrong, do some research if you are really interested and you’ll see you are mistaken about this. Just a simple proof that I don’t think crosses a line is the Webster’s Dictionary definition of mysticism – “1: the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality reported by mystics.”

I don’t think you are familiar at all with Litvish Hashkafa; the Deveikus concept is absolutely the foundation of Litvish Hashkafa. According to Litvish Hashkafa, being ‘Daveik’ to Torah is in essence being Daveik with Hashem, because the Torah is an impartion from God Himself as GAW quoted from the Gemara/Midrash [see previous page].

You are missing my point. I did not say that the Litvishe Hashkafa does not believe in d’veikus, I said that your typical yeshiva bachur rarely if ever hears a shmuess on this concept and it is certainly not “central.” True, R’ Chaim Volozhiner, the primary source of the Litvishe Hashkafa, emphasizes that by being davuk to the Torah one is davuk to Hashem, but as I heard it from all of my Litvishe rabbeim his point is punkt fakert, to take away the focus from d’veikus baShem, as our mesorah is that the Nefesh Hachayim was meant as a polemic against the Chasidic ideology of d’veikus in general being central in a person’s life. The hashkafa of my rabbeim has always been clear, that d’veikus is a peripheral concept that’s true but isn’t our concern right now. And as I said, I really don’t believe that there is such a thing as a Litvishe Hashkafa in truth. A Mehalech, certainly. But not a Hashkafa. The only true Litvishe Hashkafa is that we don’t focus on Hashkafa because it isn’t “the fleish and potatos.”

Lomed Mkol Adam-

I don’t know if you mean to imply what you are implying, but it is pure kefirah. What you are describing is some form of pantheism* (also a word to look up) and I don’t think anyone of sound hashkafos would say pshat in the Zohar that way. Perhaps you are caught up in proving me wrong that you have to say extreme things, but you are wrong. I say this with all due respect, I am not trying to mock you.

I am not evading anything. My points are in short.

1) Litvaks may have things they “believe in” but these beliefs aren’t the central focus, limud hatorah is.

2) The MO attach centrality to limud hatorah, but believe that secular knowledge is important for one’s shleimus in life as well.

3) Your thesis that the MO doesn’t belief in this concept of d’veikus that the Litvishe do, and that they somehow detach halacha from all meaning, is unfounded, unsubstantiated, and is motzi la’az on a segment of klal yisroel.

*You may have meant something similar to what is known as Panentheism (check it up too), but that is also an idea found in mystical sects of many religions.

In addition, the unity with God only happens through our actions. When we make ourselves spiritual and connect with Him, then unity happens and we actually become connected with God. However, without our ‘Avoda’ of connecting ourselves with Him, we will not become connected with Him. This is your answer regarding comparing the diveikus concept with l’havdil eleph havdolos Panentheism.

gavra_at_work-

Thank you. I think that accurately sums it up.

Lomed Mkol Adam-

You keep saying that MO doesn’t believe this or that. What exactly is your source? Is it just your own pshat?!

As for the whole d’veikus argument, forget about it. Many ideas the Jewish mystics profess are professed in one way or another by other mystics as well, and how arrogant do you have to be assume otherwise in any case if you are admittedly not well educated in the subject? In know way does that make those concepts any less true, but you should know that, calling yourself Lomed Mkol Adam.

As for your summation of Chareidi Hashkafa, I reiterate that in the regular, litvishe yeshivos I’ve been to, they never taught us to focus on d’veikus in any way shape or form. They taught us to “lig in lernen”. Now you may be correct that that is a form of d’veikus, but that doesn’t mean it was our primary objective. If I were to eat an orange because I like the taste, you don’t say that I am eating the orange because I want to generate some chemical in my brain that gives me pleasure, for why that may be true, I am much more simple than that. And for you to say that what I am saying is not true both in regard to the Litvishe system and in regard to the MO one, is two arguments you have yet to bring a shred of historical evidence to support.

What historical evidence has yitayningwut offered other than his personal anecdotal recollection of the Lithuanian style schools he attended?

yitayningwut: The first time I experienced antisemitism was going to a “Yeshivisha” yeshiva. i was judged because my father was not on welfare and learning. I was judged and ridiculed because my family was haimesh and not yeshivish. This was the first time I understood why the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed and what sinas chenam means. All I can say was B’h, the gehenom I experienced being in yeshiva is over and honestly cannot understand why charadim think they are greater than thou!

“Anonimous: I’m sorry you had a bad experience in Chareidi Yeshivos. Any Chareidi who acts bad bain adam l’chaveiro is not a real Chareidi/Frum Jew.”

Have you read your posts recently?

Mikehall: If you attended a Chareidi Yeshiva with me, I would never insult you about your different background. Let’s be honest, do you really believe an open philosophical debate on a public forum is considered insulting and hurtful?

yitayningwut: What I have seen is that tolerance is often preached but never implemented. When you have people on YWN talk about MO versus Charadim, this in itself is showing intolerance by thinking your derech is better. Last time I checked, it was supposed to be “Alu Valu divrai Alokim Chaim”. Does it matter if one is MO or not? Or Charadim or not?

Why would one care if someone wears a Kippah Surgah versus velvet.

What one can gather from posts and topics of YWN is the intolerance the Yeshiva/Charadia world has towards other frum jews who do not fit into their mold.