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“I was actually gonna start my own post (I still might) but here goes nothing.
The belief that “Antisemitism is NEVER our fault.” is not true.
Sometimes knowingly or not we bring it upon ourselves due to our actions or behavior.”Unfortunately, there is much truth to that. This is not to say that antisemitism is justified – it is obviously not- nor to deny that there are way too many biggoted people who will always hate us. But at the same time, there are many antisemites who have ended up that way because of terrible expereinces they had with jews. I think that some Frum people just work with the mindset that Goyim hate us anyway, and are oblivious to things they do that can cause or fuel antismeitsm. Candace Owens is a good example of this phenonium. The comments she has been making about jews and Israel in recent months have been totally repulsive. But many people do not know the history of what led her to embrace these disgusting views. Much earlier this year, she made an ignorant tweet about the war in Israel implying that it was a genocide. And shortly after, she said that she was told that Muslims in Israel are forced to live in the Muslim Quarter. These comments came out of ignorance, not malice, and i really believe that had Jews had respectful dialogue with her about the issue, she would have been open to changing her mind, and certainly she would not have developed the fanatical hatred for Jews and Israel that she has now. But instead, some Jews, including a very controversial Rabbi, made it their life mission to harras her, have smear campaigns against her, and even to send her death threats. I have listened to her shows from that time period, and she was clearly very emotionally scarred from these expereinces. And this has led her to accept every vile antisemitic theory out there (Frankist Jews putting Christan blood in their Matzahs, israel being behind 9/11, and Jews basically being behind every bad thing in the world, etc.)
I think this is an important point for us to keep in mind.@AAQ
The premise of a government provided basic education is not something in examined that crept into my mind.
In a non-Agrarian, post Industrial Revolution society which has long outlawed child labor a mandatory basic education is necessary to provide functional and employable citizens.Your premier of controls and testing has been shown to be unworkable by the yeshiva general education scandals in NY during the past decade.
As a taxpayer I oppose my tax dollars being spent in private institutions. Already in CT the municipalities have to pay the cost of the school nurse, special education and provide in town busing (under same mileage requirements) for private schools as public. I was in a commission that investigated and shut down a private school (not religion affiliated) that misclassified 80 students as SPEd over 6 years. All 80 were admitted to top universities upon graduation. No medical diagnoses could be produced for the. SPEd classifications just a school’s social workers notes.
$26 million was stolen from local taxpayers. The school has been put on probation by the accrediting agency and a lien placed. In another 16 months the town will likely foreclose and sell the property to satisfy the debt.Decades ago I was on the board of a Jewish day school. The students never received a fleishige lunch. This infuriated me because the freezers were loaded with cases of kosher chicken provided by the USDA (along with things like peanut butter, pasta, canned vegetables). I asked the school cook why she never served chicken to the students and was told the menahel sent chicken to his home and that of his assorted relatives teaching in the school each month while the students lived on pasta and fried matzo for lunch .
Unfortunately, life experience has taught me that private institutions cannot be trusted with public money. An administration that mishandles public funds can be voted out of office
@Kuvult Last year, I read a short biography of the Rav in Louisiana in the mid-1800s. I found some of his writing online and realized that he got the position because his predecessor was thrown out of the shul for being an abolitionist and he was willing to talk about slavery as a good thing.
Kuvult,
FDR was an anti-Semite, period, who could have allowed Jews into this country since his party controlled Congress for most of his presidency. He wouldn’t even meet with the 400 Rabbonim who came to D.C. begging him to save their brothers and sisters.
Yserbius,
You’re exactly right though there’s an additional factor at play.
With Civil War looming the President called for January 4, 1861 to be a day of prayer, fasting & humiliation when all should go to their houses of worship to cry out to G-d that a solution is reached instead of war. The Rav gave a strongly Pro-Confederate speech (it’s available online).
New Orleans Jews being strongly Pro-Confederate wanted him as their Rabbi & made an offer.
At the same time Lincoln tired of all the headaches coming out of Baltimore when 1,000 Union soldiers marched in, declared Baltimore to be under Union occupation & Martial Law. They immediately started rounded up influential secessionists & Confederate supporters. The Rabbi fearing being thrown in jail for however long the Union felt, fled Baltimore for New Orleans.xctl > a mandatory basic education is necessary to provide functional and employable citizens.
I think we agree here, and maybe even more than basic
> private institutions cannot be trusted with public money.
This is what I think is “unexamined”. USSR had indeed such economy, but in this country, government routinely spends money on private businesses – from buying munitions to doing medical research to providing medicaid services and foodstamps. I agree that education is not a simple good as potatoes are, but medicine and defense are also complex industries. So, your premise needs more nuance.
the love American Jews have for America reminds me of the love German Jews had for Germany until the holocaust
“As a taxpayer I oppose my tax dollars being spent in private institutions.”
The complication is that we’re compelled to pay taxes that are used for activities that go far beyond basic education.
School vouchers enable us to reclaim some of our tax dollars and spend the money in a way that aligns with our values.
yuda the maccabi: the love Zionists have for the Zionist Entity reminds me of the love Spanish Jews had for Spain, King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella until the Inquisition, mass conversion of 50% of the Jewish population in Spain and expulsion of the other 50%.
yuda > the love American Jews have for America reminds me of the love German Jews had for Germany until the holocaust
We all are not naviim and don’t know what awaits us. Indeed, when Fritz Haber, a Nobel prize winner, was visiting US a couple of years before WW1, he was shocked to discover that some places did not allow Jews (although it did not apply to respected people like him, he was told) – and said that nothing like that could ever happen in Germany … Still, there are many countries where Jews lived for hundreds of years in a reasonable way (Spain, Germany, Poland, Persia …) and, to a various degree, interacted with the country.
DovidBT > School vouchers enable us to reclaim some of our tax dollars
I don’t think there is a strict halachik or “Jewish” view on social issues, we are somewhat pragmatic – whatever works to achieve the right goals, as seen from a sequence of school systems during BM2 as described in Bava Basra. I don’t see how an experiment with vouchers would not be welcome. If results are unfavorable, then the society can always turn around. And US system that allows state experimentation is a perfect place for such pragmatic experiments. So, my only objection is for those who make federal government in charge of everything drastically reducing ability of states to experiment. This applies to education, medicine, welfare, not defense obviously.
@DovidBT
Actually vouchers allow you to claim other taxpayers’ dollars and spend them in ways that align with your values.I have had running disagreements with local taxpayers who live in lower end homes in my CT community.
They clam an entitlement in the schools because of property tax. They pay a. Average of $7000 per year, but the town spends $25000 per year in each public school student.
I pay $28000 per year on the main CTL compound house and have never had a child in public schools.The proposal for vouchers would give those taxpayers paying $7000 in local property taxes $25,000 a year in local tax dollars to spend outside the public education system. I object to this.
It takes a minimum of 18 less students in our local schools to eliminate a common teacher. Have to shed 100+ students to eliminate an art or music teacher and 120 to get rid of a gym teacher. 600 have to go to get rid of a librarian
X-CTL: Why not privatize all government schools and then let each parent choose which school to send their children to?
Chasidim who switch their vest for a Canon windbreaker & tie their Peyos up under their B&H Photo baseball cap before going to Atlantic City aren’t fooling anyone.
@ujm
I have already posted that I do not trust the honesty and ability of private operators spending public education tax dollars
I cited examples of fraudxCTL > The proposal for vouchers would give those taxpayers paying $7000 in local property taxes $25,000 a year in local tax dollars to spend outside the public education system. I object to this
> I do not trust the honesty and ability of private operators spending public education tax dollarsI agree with you that there should be oversight – as of any public money spent. I did not see – maybe I missed? – your response to my argument that this country spends a lot of public funds via private means. Are you insisting that only public servants produce Patriot missiles? that public servants decide what welfare recipients should eat – specific menu, that is. So, when you live in AOC district, you’ll get veggie diet, in JD Vances’, red meat. Surely, this does not affect anyone’s freedom – you can always move to the place that serves meat, same way people now need to move to get to better public schools.
As to specifics, a lot of your concerns can be either alleviated or, at least, tested out: testing 3Rs is a simple thing that many states already do. You don’t need to give $25K vouchers (the insane amount public school spends). Start with $10K, see how many takers will be there, then give more to the schools that give best results. As a result, your struggling public schools will have (temporarily, hopefully) more money per person to spend while they are adjusting to having competition. There are other things you can do – allow online classes where appropriate (high schoolers who can handle it; extra classes not available in small schools); allow easier competition between public schools. If people like you with experience in both public and private ed themselves will approach this problem with all creativity you have, instead of dogmatism, things will start improving – for those poor people especially.
Not particularly controversial: Sam Klein should keep his opinions to himself. The teshuva he constantly prates about should start with him.
the cops should actually catch porch pirates, those who steal bikes etc. and actually fine them enough that its not worth taking the risk!!
Hot take, the yeshiva system should prepare people for the future re finances.
@kuvult what’s your life story?
Participant,
What do you mean? What do you want to know?Everything.
your historic and sociologic bio. your struggles and challenges. your worldview and if it ever changed.
Where and who you are today.Parents (that are capable) should teach their kids usingall means available. I didn’t think it is controversial until I got here. People here, who recite shinantem levanecha twice daily, explained to me that this is controversial. Thanks, I learned a lot from these discussions.
Communists are as bad or worse as nazis and both should be mentioned when we talk about our prosecutors. This used to be controversial but less now, as the term “Russian Nazis” became widespread.
that the National Association of Social Workers (NASW) is an antisemite organization.
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