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“The Israelis do not go to Washington to shnorr and then refuse doing favors and mevaze the donors. See the difference?”
you mean such as (Arutz Sheva report) Bennett referring to President Obama “like spitting in Israel’s face – no less than that”?
Daniela, they do not refer to the US as an illegit. joke-of-a-medina and so on and so forth.And Israel is not a part of the USA at that while Chareidim are Israeli citizens. And Bennett just critisized the Presiden’s policies.
Ah talmid, it is paltry in terms of the US and even Israeli budget and it goes to pay for the Israeli army. It is a pay-off for the withdrawal from Sinai. Some Israeli politicians even called for refusing to take it in order not to owe the US favors for the gelt.
Well, $3 Billion is not paltry any way you look at it. And Israel is the absolute largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid, even though it is a small country. And it receices both military and non-military economic aid. As far as the Chareidim are concerned, they receive a paltry amount of aid. And many of them even refuse to take the little they are entitled to, and yet the government is now demanding that even the Chareidim who don’t take the little government funding offered also be drafted! (You should be cheering the Briskers and Satmarers as they don’t take money from the government. Why does the draft apply to them? They should be completely exempt even if they are not in yeshiva.)
What I am saying is that the Briskers and the Satmars look principled and do not make a Chillul HaShem.
Why do they want to draft them? they want to draft everyone as any country would.
Let the Chareidim try going to Austria, Russia or Greece (these have universal draft) and try saying that as a community they must be patured from the draft because they learn. Aha.
Right, and other civlized countries accept “concientious objections” to being drafted. Brisk and Satmar clearly and inarguably are legitimate concientious objectors to serving in the zionist army inasmuch as secular pacifists and the Amish are elsewhere.
Exactly mdd! No different than those who boasted until the previous week “We will not abandon Sinai, where Torah was given…. Jewish investments will be protected….” If Israel cared about people who live beyond the Green Line, those areas (except for the small portion which is occupied for strictly strategical reasons and earmarked for future return to foreign countries) would have been annexed according to international law, a long, long time ago. They were not annexed and will not be annexed because when it is convenient to do so, people who relied upon the politicians’ electoral promises will be thrown under the bus. And, exactly like those who lost assets and investments in the Sinai pull-out, any “compensation” negotiated with US, UN, or anyone else, will be diverted elsewhere.
Anyway. Please don’t embarrass yourself any further. You can look up ebco-beoc the website of the European Bureau for Conscientious Objection. Austria recognizes conscience objection since 1955. Greece did have compulstory drafts in the days of the colonels’ regime, which lead Greek young men to seek and obtain political asylum elsewhere in Europe (and attend university for free); since 1997 Greece also admits conscience objection. Russian Federation recognizes conscience objection since 1993 (no surprise of course, as USSR pioneered that sort of legislation).
ah talmid,
That would/might get them away from the battlefield, but not out of the army. Israel is giving the charedim something even better, National Service. I still don’t know why they would be against that.
JOE, I know I should not have started talking to you.
Joe, and Paris is the capital of Japan!
truthsharer: you are mistaken. The coalition agreement requires 2/3 of the chareidim serving be in the army and NOT national service. Furthermore, the agreement says only the army will decide if someone is allowed to go to national service instead of the army. (Additionally, it severely limits what is even considered to be national service.)
“That would/might get them away from the battlefield, but not out of the army. Israel is giving the charedim something even better, National Service.”
As MK Eichler put it, they want the chareidim to be their “chotvei mayim” and “shoavei eitzim”
what about the two who were kicked from iaf pilot course because their beards would affect “unit cohesion”
5/17/12
The Israeli Finance Ministry is crafting a proposal to induct chareidi men at age 20 into police and fire-fighting units. The plan aims to replace the Tal Law, following criticism by the High Court of Justice of inequality in the legislation, Haaretz reports.
…to the unrespected units.The new air fire-fighting unit,for example, is closed to charedim.
Daniela, but they would not recognize desire to learn the Torah as “consciencous objection”.Especially if it involved 8% of the population. But, enough of this going in circles. I am not going to talk to you or Joe any further — enough has been said.Especially, as you would claim that Paris is a capital of Japan just to say that the Israelis are evil and the Chareidim are right from every vantage point.
Not every conscience objector accepts civil service. A notable and well-known exception are the j witnesses, which due to their missionary activity, can be found in just about every country (including the Medinat). And of course it is not demanded from Arab citizens (Muslim or Xian) that they waste months and years in civil service. Can you explain us why so?
PS I am surprised you don’t know Paris is in Texas, there was even a movie about that 🙂
mdd you are correct that many countries deny conscience objection to (volunteer) soldiers, who either are opposed to a particular war (but have no issue with wars in general or with the use of military force) or who changed their mind during service (in this second case, however, there is usually some way-out). However charedim are not in this situation. The very fact observant Jews do not carry a weapon on Shabbat, because it is not considered a decoration and is not considered to enhance the kavod of those who carry it, has historically been good enough for a commission, for those countries who have / had one.
Bear:
“My present views are in line with true NK”
Really? You think it’s a good idea to hand the keys over to the Palestinians?
zdad:
“The Non-Charedim dont wont the Charedim in the Army”
Tell that to Lapid.
mdd:
“Let the Chareidim try going to Austria, Russia or Greece (these have universal draft) and try saying that as a community they must be patured from the draft because they learn.”
First of all, the cases would only be comparable if the founding father of the said countries would have promised the Chareidim an exemption from the draft, as was promised to them by Ben-Gurion.
Also, don’t you think that in a country with a “Jewish Identity”, things should be different? That people should be allowed to learn Torah in peace?
Kanoi, he promised forever and no matter the numbers? Plus, he was the most evil ever, so why rely on or invoke his promises?
“Jewish identity” — you seriously thought they meant “Shulchan Aruch” to the dot?
The $3B from USA is specifically military assistance, of which 74% is to be spent for hardware / services from US contractors. The aid provides equipment, Israel provides the soldiers.
Economic aid from USA has been phased out completely.
Historically, a large amount of the military aid was provided to help make up for the loss of Sinai in the 1979 peace treaty with Egypt. Promises of aid from USA to both Egypt and Israel over many years was an important part of the 1979 peace treaty.
mdd:
“Kanoi, he promised forever and no matter the numbers?”
He didn’t specify any limits, so there should be none.
“Plus, he was the most evil ever, so why rely on or invoke his promises?”
What does one have to do with the other?
“Jewish identity” — you seriously thought they meant “Shulchan Aruch” to the dot?”
I wish. But a little bit of tolerance for those who learn Torah from the state that sees itself as a continuation of the Jewish People would only be appropriate.
mdd -“Kanoi, he promised forever and no matter the numbers?”
So the US promised forever the 3 Billion? Time to stop the cash cow to Israel. I think if the Frum Americans start demanding No more aid to Israel the politicians who don’t want to give foreign aid anyway will get more powerful and we can change the law.
Josh31 -“The $3B from USA is specifically military assistance, of which 74% is to be spent for hardware / services from US contractors. The aid provides equipment, Israel provides the soldiers.”
Yep, and when they draft the Charedim they won’t have any weapons left to give them because hopefully we won’t give them a penny anymore. I think the high and mighty Chilonim/Mizrachists won’t be so and mighty anymore.
And the next thing we should do is pressure our politicians to stop defending Israel. The next time the world bodies get together and attack Israel for being Apatheid -the US should go along. And maybe the US should support the Palestinians bid to go to the world court and have sanctions given towards them.
Enough with them always being defended by the US. Time for Israel to get a taste of their own medicine.
Wake up slumbering Frum Jews in the US! Don’t pretend that Israel can do what they want – when they want to your Frum brothers in Israel. This is Shmad. Once upon a time Israel was a Shogegg -what they are doing now is B’maizid. We can stop them, but we have to wake up first!
I accidently posted this comment on somebody else’ username… mods, could you delete the previous post?
mdd:
“Kanoi, he promised forever and no matter the numbers?”
He didn’t specify any limits, so there should be none.
“Plus, he was the most evil ever, so why rely on or invoke his promises?”
“Plus, he was the most evil ever, so why rely on or invoke his promises?”
What does one have to do with the other?
“Jewish identity” — you seriously thought they meant “Shulchan Aruch” to the dot?”
I wish. But a little bit of tolerance for those who learn Torah from the state that sees itself as a continuation of the Jewish People would only be appropriate.
(Sorry, that got cut off.)
GAW:
The obvious difference is that the said comment was referring to boosting the Chareidi population, not limiting the chilloni one.
GAW, it is an American saying. According to you, why does the Torah mandate batei dinim and punishments? Btw, I do not always agree with the machos the Israeli Chareidim do and how they do it.
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