What Is Your Ideal Endgame In Israel?

Mine?

1: Moshiach.

2: See 1 above.

What is your plan if he doesnt come tommorrow?

One shouldnt quit their job, Sell their house and all their belongings because Moshaich MIGHT come today. One can belive Moshaich will come and still live normally

(I was only responding to the question in the title heading and referenced the structure on your post body but not it’s content.)

Agree on (1) and (2). I see no reason that the Knesset should be geographical based, I think the current system is fine.

Real peace with the Palestinians. Let them have Gaza and declare it a Palestinian State. It’s not like Israel wants it anyways. Come up with some sort of plan to give them the West Bank and Natzeret but keep Gush Etzion and Beitar. (We don’t need the rest. Set everyone up with cheap housing in the Negev.) Get the US to agree to send troops over to keep the peace for the at least next decade until all terrorists are dead or in jail and there has been no violence for three years. Put the Old City and surrounding area under UN control.

I have a weird degree of confidence in a Chareidi Knesset. Once there is no longer the need to have a “Jewish State” due to the unpopularity of religious and secular Zionism in the Knesset there should be less of a problem giving up settlements.

As an American, I think the British parliamentary system is too indirect and doesn’t give the people enough of a voice. Of course I’d like to see a constitutional monarchy but in the meantime I believe Israel has enough citizens and regions for a small republic. The Haredi tzibur will simply not accept a non-Haredi king, so I think at some point they’re going to pack up and leave Israel to wait for their own Moshiach.

I think moshiach will be chareidi, but will arrive wearing a srugi, just to test our ahavas yisroel.

I really don’t think there is going to be a monarchy. Its unclear if a monarchy was ever intended for Israel in the first place, and it is clear from Navi (gasp, i read the rest of the torah other than the first five books) that all monarchies ended in disaster.

No reason the new moshiach state can’t be a democracy. Sure the sources don’t mention a democracy, but since the concept didnt exist at the time you would hardly expect it to be talked about.

I would just read all references to kings as references to government powers which could be a democracy as well.

Mobe613, it is openly stated in many places that a real Jewish state must be a Torah-based monarchy.

In the ancient world he idea of a Democracy was generally foreign an unknown to many. While Rome (Before Julius Ceaser) and Athens were republics for the most part the of an elected government was unknown until at least the 1600’s in England.

Nobody knew of anything other than a monarchy

I believe in separating school from state. End the public school system, end direct funding to yeshivas and just give people vouchers. If people want chiloni schools, let them have their own private chiloni schools.

ZD and Mobe, The Torah is timeless and was given from All-Knowing HaShem. What you wrote is completely beyond the pale!

There shouldn’t be any strings. Trust the parents with their own children. Not some journalist who doesn’t have a high school diploma.

England did have a Parliment and France had an Estates General before the 1600’s but it really wasnt until Cromwell overthrew the king and made Parliment ruler did it really stick, Before that the Monarch was more powerful and could disolve parliment

The Florentine states in Italy did have enlightend rules like the Medicis, but in the the The Medicis had the real power.

And a Republic is not exactly a Democracy

GAW, where does the Torah say it? Anyhow, it is pretty much apikorsus what they are saying. HaShem knew of democracy! It is mefurash in Gemorah and the Rambam that it is a mitsvah to appoint a king. And the Moshiach is going to be a desendant of Dovid ha’melech. And, yes, chazir is ossur.

I expect the Haredim to fight Moshiach because he may not recognize their way of life. What if he shows up wearing a baseball cap? What the Haredim are waiting for is someone who will essentially stomp out all competing streams of Judiasm.

A republic is a form of democracy but is not a direct democracy where every citizen makes every choice. There has to be a constitution to protect the minority from being marginalized. The king doesn’t have to be a mere figurehead, either. The Torah provides for a bicameral leadership structure where the power is divided between Moshe and Aaron but that doesn’t necessarily mean absolute monarchy. It’s just that what the king says, goes.

At this point, the MKs are not responsible to the voters, but to the parties and where they are placed on the list. Geographic representation would make them responsible to specific voters.

I happen to disagree.

If I live in an area that is heavily Sephardi, Shas would win. They don’t represent me.

With the current system, Yahadut HaTorah is responsible to the Ashkenazi Charedim. ALL the Ashkenazi Charedim–not just the ones in a particular geographic location that is heavily Ashkenazi Charedi.

Likud and Bayit Yehudi might reconsider how much they want to permanently antagonize the Hareidim, and limit the sanctions for not serving in the army to loss of yeshiva stipends (rather than fines, loss of welfare state benefits, restrictions on civil rights, etc.). The fact that Likud always has an option to substitute the Hareidim for Lapid will serve to limit Lapid’s options.

Or- the you know what hits the fan and the next year will be very “interesting” (as in the proverbial curse, ‘may you live in interesting times’)

ari-free: If people start worshipping him as Haredim are wont to do, then yes I might. Moshiach won’t let anyone worship him, but will guide klal yisroel to return to Hashem. As selfless as Moshe Rabbeinu himself. His kingdom will be known as the kingdom of truth, remember? He has to be someone that the kohen gadol is willing to anoint.

Moshiach isn’t NK. He isn’t Satmar either. He will not sit with those who would kill his people. He is supposed to be the lowest of the low, hated of men, dead at birth. Certainly not someone who would appear on television shaking hands with a wannabe Hitler like Achmadinejad.

I don’t get it. If we’re not supposed to have a Jewish state until Moshiach comes, and at the same time people blast Israel for not being one, isn’t that a catch-22? Why is it so important what Israel does, if it’s not even a legitimate Jewish state according to the Torah?

No antagonism meant, just something I’ve wondered for a while.

Anyway, I love the idea of a “hippie haredi” Moshiach. Don’t ask me why.

Well, as I always like to say: if you took Rav Shimshon Refael Hirsch’s views on Zionism and combined them with Rav Avraham Yitzchak Kook’s views on tznius, you’d end up with Neturei Karta.

SpiderJerusalem: No, not really- I took the terminology from an above poster, but I always pictured it as a playing-the-(acoustic, definitely)-guitar-in-the-Jerusalem-forest type. or the mountains by Tzfat. You know what I mean.

Chareidi means one who trembles (from Hashem). As long as we use this definition, this is probably what Moshiach will be like. As far as the societal grouping, I’m going to have to go with Yair Lapid on that one and admit that so many of these groupings are essentially modern in nature and thus i is very unlikely that one is the original.