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cantoresq: Your point that all Gedolim must agree if that is Divine will is ludicrous. In the same way that there can be machlokes in halacha which even you agree is under the auspicies of the Rabbis, because ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? so too in matters of hashkafa and secular subjects. The example you gave is who to vote for President, well living in Israel I will adapt it to recent Israeli politics. When the Gerrer Rebbe called to vote for N.B. in the elections in Yerushalayim then it was correct for all Gerrer chassidim to do just that and this is Divine will for THEM. When other Rabbonim said to vote for M.P. then it is essential for their followers to vote M.P. and this is daas Torah for THEM. Why can it not be rotzoin HaShem for that to happen? Why does it have to be that someone is wrong if they disagree? Do you not believe that all parties will receive schar for their votes even if they are different? Equally a Gerrer who voted M.P. or a litvack who voted N.B. will be liable in shomayim for their actions. Indeed an act by Reuvain can be considered a Kiddush HaShem whilst Shimon doing the same thing will be doing a chilul HaShem.
There is indeed a point of ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? and rulings can be based on inaccuracies. The Gedolim that I have been zoche to be acquainted with, ALWAYS double/triple/quadruple check up on their information. (I have personally been asked on various occasions to check out facts on behalf of Rabbonim) To base yourself on such excuses is just that, an excuse to disregard the Rabbonim and to follow your own yetzer Hara to do what you want….
Joseph
Member
cantoresq:
1 & 2. I understood notpashut to mean that the information YOU heard on the grapevine about how the Gedolim treated any certain matter (R’ Lamm, Schmeltzer, etc.) is just that; grapevine and half-inaccuracies. So YOUR assumption the Gedolim based ANYTHING on misinformation, is just your assumptions based on what you heard on the grapevine.
3. That heavenly “signal” is far more likely to reach a Godol than a Koton (like ourselves.)
4. Sure there are disparities of opinion amongst Gedolim. YOU just follow YOUR Rov.
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1 & 2: I don’t think that’s what notpashut meant, but it is plausible. However my experience (i.e. the R. Svei/R. Lamm episode) tells me otherwise. Regarding the Lipa Schmelczer and concert debacle, the Rav of my schul, who is a close talmid of R. Shmuel Kaminetzky told me that R. Kameinetzky admitted that the signatories to the proclamation did not have all the facts. Moreover, unless there is more transparency to the process how can we really know what information the Gedolim have? But I do know that the organizers of the Madison Square concert were not given an opportunity to address the Gedolim prior to the proclamation and address the issues. Why weren’t they? That they weren’t given that opportunity tells me that the Gedolim didn’t have all the information available and decided the issue in a [partial] vacuum.
3: Why?
4: How can there be disparities? Halachik practice can have differences of opinion. The system allows for it and has systemic mechanisms to deal with it. But doctrine is different. Notice how nowhere in the Halachik literature does a posek declare that G-d wants us to do “X.” Indeed Tanur Achinai tells us that the Halachik system does not allow for that type of argument. But claims of Da’as Torah are precisely that; a claim that G-d wants us to believe X or do Y or refrain from doing Z due to some meta-halachik consideration. Once there is so absolutist a claim as to having ascertained Divine will in a given situation, there can be no room for dispute. While indeed counseling that one just “follow YOUR Rov” is good advice in how to deal with such issues, it does not solve the philosophical problem I’m trying to address.
I will refer in some way to cantoresq. words as arguing the point I have been making for a while. Tanur achcnoi (which I mwentioned earlier) is a prime example of that. The chachomim actually understood that R”eliezer was right in his arguments but Torah is not ordained from heaven, it is decided here.
To true Honesty…I’d have a lot more respect for your words if you would not have intimated a number of times that I (and my views) are borderline heretic. I ignored it the first time around but I will not ignore it this time.
What do you know about me? What do you know about my background, Torah views in general and what makes you so sure what I would have done in other circumstances? And what do you know which Gedolim I follow?
I am saying all this because your snide remarks about me is symptomatic of the arguments that you are displaying in this posting. For you, it is ‘daas torah’ and therefore one cannot argue with it ! Any saying by one of YOUR gedolim becomes “halocho lemoshe misinai” and anyone who dares question THEIR views is, at the minimum, wrong and, as you intimate, a kofer.
THAT is EXACTLY what this whole assertion of “daas torah” has brought us to!
In accepting that concept, there is no room for any other view except for YOUR gedolim! Anyone who questions ANYTHING of YOUR gedolim will be castigated as an ‘apikoros”.
Well,I am not playing your game. I do NOT have to accept YOUR gedolim’s words on anything, actually. I have the right to choose my own Posek and my own “Moreh derech”.
If this does not square with yoru views, sorry.
Until you can accept ME as someone who has the same interest in the advancement of Torah and yiddshkeit as you, I will not engage in futile discussions.
“derech eretz kodmo letorah”
Truehonesty
Member
cantoresq: Your point that all Gedolim must agree if that is Divine will is ludicrous. In the same way that there can be machlokes in halacha which even you agree is under the auspicies of the Rabbis, because ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? so too in matters of hashkafa and secular subjects.
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A few points in response:
1. The Halachik system allows for disputes and deals with them systemically. “Divine will” vis-a-vis Halacha is to have disputes. One cannot legitimately say as proper hashkafa that G-d does not want/accept disputes in Halacha. Now, either Jewish thought accepts the possibility of Halachik dispute or it doesn’t. We happen to know the definitive answer to this question. As to other issues of hashkafa or decisions not expressly goverened by Halacha, whether we know the answer or not, there has to be a definitive divine will for those who believe in Da’as Torah. They have to understand that G-d had a preference for either Barkat or Porush, or for Obama or McCain. (It is unknown if Divine will was fulfilled in those instances) That’s what is meant when a Gadol pronounces Da’as Torah as opposed to simply offering his mere opinion or giving advice. I don’t think you or any other proponent of Da’as Torah believes that it is another term for a rabbis opinion. You take it as something far more authoritative. But for it to be that authoritative, there cannot be any dispute among the conduits of said Divine will or else Divine will is a nebulous concept.
2. If you accept such heterodoxy (i.e. Ger must follow the statements of the Gerrer Rebbe as they are correct for Ger, Satmer the Satmer Rabbe, Litvakcs, those of R. Shteinman etc.) and since you readily accept the possibility of disputes between authorities, what stops an individual from choosing which Da’as Torah to follow, and doesn’t the ability to make that choice defeat the entire philosophy since it is no longer Da’as Torah being followed, but rather an individual doing as he pleases under the cover of chosen rabbinic legitimacy? And before you make response based on intellectual honesty, assume the individual chooses to follow a particular Gadol in a particular instance to his (the individual’s) detriment.
3. Given your ready acceptance of both the legitimacy of disputes in the area of Divine will, and you’re postulating that such disputes are in fact a fulfillment of Divine will, are you prepared to extend the same ideological largesse to non-Orthodoxies? Perhaps Conservative Judaism is a fulfillment of Divine will for Conservative Jews. After all, it was the Haskalah and Zionism, not any change in ideology, that led to the current unity between chassidim and mitnagdim under the umbrella of Orthodoxy. Certainly the GR”A never enviviosned such detante.
I’ll cut to the chase. Da’as Torah, as currently formulated and applied, is entirely circular. The Da’as Torah of a particualr rabbi is accepted becuase he is a Gadol and thinks the way G-d wants people to think. He thinks the way G-d wants people to think because he is a Gadol and therefore what he says is Da’as Torah. To be a Gadol one must think the way G-d wants one to think. To think the way G-d wants one to think, one must be a Gadol. Never minding the obvious quandry of which comes first the status or the epiphany, the entire notion is circular and therefore just so much sophistic nonsense.
Cantoresq,
I’m going to give this one last try.
Finally, in your last post you CLEARLY stated that “G-d had a preference for either Barkat or Porush, or for Obama or McCain”.
Now, I imagine that you would agree that when the average balabos (like me & you & RoB) is attempting to determine who to vote for, our considerations include things like
1) Who’s better for Israel?
2) Who’s better for the economy?
3) Who’s better for education? etc. etc.
However most of us never think in terms of “Who’s better for Hashem”? Or, “Who does Hashem want us to vote for”?
That’s the difference between Da’as Torah & Da’as Balabayis. Da’as Torah is thinking on a totally different channel then me & you.
Da’as Torah is thinking on Hashem’s channel.
Therefore being that the question here is, “Who does Hashem want to be President”? & NOT “Who do WE think will make a better President”? the Gedolim are eminantly more suited to make such a decision than ourselves.
As I stated earlier, does this mean Gedolim can never err? Of course not. Does this mean the Gedolim can never disagree? Of course not.
However the people who ask Da’as Torah such questions are asking for the same reason they ask Rabbanim Halacha questions – because they want to do Ratzon Hashem.
For example, I remember reading in the biography of R’ Pam Zatza”l about how someone once came to R’ Pam with the following scenario, He lived in Brooklyn & had a decent job & made enough money to get by with no problems at all.
He was now being offered a job out of town with a HUGE salary. What should he do?
You would say, R’ Pam is not any more qualified to answer such a question than me or you. However that is only correct if the question is, “What’s best for me”?
If the question is “What does HASHEM THINK is best for me”?, suddenly R’ Pam is in first place.
It would be worth your while (you too rabbiofberlin – & everyone for that matter) to purchase the Sefer “Derech Sicha” which is a compilation of non-halachik questions (hashkafa) which were asked to R’ Chaim Kanievsky Shlit”a. It is absolutely incredible to see how every single query was answered with a Passuk in Chumash or a Midrash etc.
Because a Gadol is in tune with what HASHEM wants – we are not.
So it is with all such issues.
Phrased a bit differently,
You are saying that it is absurd to posit that R’ Shmuel Kamenetzky knows better than me & you who would make a better President, (on the contrary, you would even argue that WE are better qulified to make such an evaluation given our level of worldliness).
I’m saying that you are 100% percent right.
However those who ask Da’as Torah that question feel that R’ Shmuel Kamenetzky will know better than us who HASHEM THINKS will make a better president.
I think that they are 100% right.
To my dear RabbiofBerlin: Firstly let me unconditionally apologize for upsetting you, that was not my intention but rather to bring out the points clearly and strongly. I was simply trying to show how not following daas Torah in those times led to Reform. Please dont take my comments personally, they are not meant to be personal (as you said I dont have the faintest idea who you are anyway) but look at the issues…
Your assertion about me that anyone who argues with MY Godol is a kofer etc., I simply do not understand where you read that. In fact I totally disagree with that outlook as I continuously am arguing that Ger should follow the Gerrer Rebbe, Satmar – the Satmar Rebbe, Litvaks – their Roshei Yeshivos etc. My point is that there is a correct Jewish attitude of daas Torah and to just do away with it is wrong. We all agree as I have said time and time again that our Gedolim are not gods and yes they can make mistakes but they do have the extra siyata dishmaya to guide them. According to chassidic sources part of this siyata dishmaya comes from the fact that people trust and believe in them as Gedolim (even Moshe Rabeinu was told “?? ??” ie your madreiga goes down together with your followers when they sin – a Godol’s madreiga can be lifted or lowered by his followers). There is a famous moshol of a poor farmer whose only cow died and he decided naively to travel to the king for help. After weeks of travel he arrived in the capital and assumed the first large building must be the palace. After eventually finding the king’s residence he met a man dressed in a uniform and assumed that he is the king and poured out his heart to him. The servant realized the mistake and played on and promised him a new cow immediately. Eventually the king heard about the story and immediately provided the farmer with a cow so as not to allow the farmer to think that the king is a liar BUT simultaneously the servant was thrown into prison for pretending to be the king and promisng things in the king’s name. The nimshal is obvious, the Gedolim who are indeed fitting will advise and direct as honest emissaries of the King whilst even those who maybe are not, HaShem will ensure correct advice so as not to cause chillul HaShem but the punishments are reserved for those who speak in the King’s name unjustifiably. The bottom line is that HaShem will ensure that us lowly “farmers” will get the right advice and direction.
Furthermore, you have said “The idea that a Godol or Rov has the ABSOLUTE knowledge for everything and that one has to acccept all his sayings is ABSOLUTELY not the Jewish way. No one is infallible in our tradition. No one- not even Moshe rabbeinu- has absolute knowledge.
If you deny that- then you belong to a different religion.
This is my view, and everything else follows naturally.” Well, I will surprise you and say that I agree. We only differ in the conclusions. You understand that to mean that one may follow ones own heart and thoughts in all matters other than halocho since in everything besides halocho we are all equal to the Gedolim. I disagree totally with that outlook for the reasons outlined above and those expressed by notpashut. I mentioned to you on other occasions the difference between our negios and a Godol’s negios with the moshol of the ice on the river that cracked. Yes, yiras shomayim and siyata dishmaya are valid concepts that you still have never answered.
cantoresq: Your answers were a delight to read and I will honestly say that they made me think….
1) I do not understand your train of thought, why must daas Tora have to be absolute for everyone? Why can’t it be Divine will that A should vote X and B to vote Y? Who HaShem wants should win is a different question and HaShem will insure that His desired candidate will win anyway. This idea that we must do what is right anyway regardless of the consquences and HaShem will worry about the outcome is all over in Chazal. Tomor was prepared to die so as not to embarrass Yehuda even though she was carrying the future of Klal Yisroel (the ancestors of ????? ??? ??? and ??? ?????), to cite one example. Our job is not to ensure results but to act in the correct way and the results will follow. Once you accept this basis then, I think, your arguement falls away. It is not a contradiction in Divine will for one Gadol to say vote X and another to say vote Y as nobody is saying that they are telling us who HaShem wants should WIN but how HaShem wants us to act and vote. Therefore it can be correct that Ger should vote X and Litvaks Y as I have argued all along.
2) Here you touch on another very valid point. Chazal tell us “??? ?? ??”, how to choose is another subject BUT once you have chosen then stay there and dont move around at your own convenience. If you are a Gerrer then follow the Gerrer Rebbe ALWAYS etc.
3) This question was once asked to the Ponovhez Rov ztl after a speech where he compared the Jews to an army. Just as an army has different units for different duties – a navy for sea fighting, an airforce, tank units, foot soldiers – each to his purpose but combining to win the war, so too the Yidden have chassidim, litvaks, sephardim etc. each to his purpose but combining to do Divine will. The question was then asked about the position of Conservative and Reform as they too are part of the “army”. The Ponovhez Rov ztl answered on the spot, of course they are part of the army, they are the deserters…. Need I add another word!
4) Your final comment was indeed the hardest to answer!! You phrased it very well!! It is however answerable from both sides. Reb Moshe Feinstein ztl was once asked by a journalist what made him so famous to all Jews? He replied that a lady once asked him a shaila, liked his answer, told her friends who then came too and they continued to spread the word until he became world famous. Gedolim are not born gedolim but become Gedolim. This is a lifetime work of continuous effort in avodas HaShem and something that is almost impossible to imitate (Exceptions like Shabetai Tzvi deserve a separate thread). Gedolim dont know Divine will because they are gedolim but because they are living their whole lives bekedusha ubetahara and immersed continuously in divrei Torah and yiras shomayim. This entitles them to the siyata dishmaya and ability to judge situations according to the Torah and its Writer.
Similarly, HaShem plants in every generation a select few to be these leaders of klal Yisroel – ??? ??? ????????. This is included in the brocho of ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ???’ and therefore HaShem ensures that His leaders are available and accessible in each generation and it is OUR job to follow them.
In short, a Godol knows Divine will because he has worked on himself all his life to be a fitting messenger of HaShem AND because HaShem has chosen him.
notpashut
Member
Cantoresq,
NP:I’m going to give this one last try.
Finally, in your last post you CLEARLY stated that “G-d had a preference for either Barkat or Porush, or for Obama or McCain”.
CESQ REPLIES:
Now, I imagine that you would agree that when the average balabos (like me & you & RoB) is attempting to determine who to vote for, our considerations include things like
1) Who’s better for Israel?
2) Who’s better for the economy?
3) Who’s better for education? etc. etc.
However most of us never think in terms of “Who’s better for Hashem”? Or, “Who does Hashem want us to vote for”?
That’s the difference between Da’as Torah & Da’as Balabayis. Da’as Torah is thinking on a totally different channel then me & you.
Da’as Torah is thinking on Hashem’s channel.
Therefore being that the question here is, “Who does Hashem want to be President”? & NOT “Who do WE think will make a better President”? the Gedolim are eminantly more suited to make such a decision than ourselves.
As I stated earlier, does this mean Gedolim can never err? Of course not. Does this mean the Gedolim can never disagree? Of course not.
However the people who ask Da’as Torah such questions are asking for the same reason they ask Rabbanim Halacha questions – because they want to do Ratzon Hashem.
For example, I remember reading in the biography of R’ Pam Zatza”l about how someone once came to R’ Pam with the following scenario, He lived in Brooklyn & had a decent job & made enough money to get by with no problems at all.
He was now being offered a job out of town with a HUGE salary. What should he do?
You would say, R’ Pam is not any more qualified to answer such a question than me or you. However that is only correct if the question is, “What’s best for me”?
If the question is “What does HASHEM THINK is best for me”?, suddenly R’ Pam is in first place.
It would be worth your while (you too rabbiofberlin – & everyone for that matter) to purchase the Sefer “Derech Sicha” which is a compilation of non-halachik questions (hashkafa) which were asked to R’ Chaim Kanievsky Shlit”a. It is absolutely incredible to see how every single query was answered with a Passuk in Chumash or a Midrash etc.
Because a Gadol is in tune with what HASHEM wants – we are not.
So it is with all such issues.
NP:Finally, in your last post you CLEARLY stated that “G-d had a preference for either Barkat or Porush, or for Obama or McCain”.
CESQ REPLIES: I never said that. I said that for those who believe in Da’as Torah, they would have to accept the premise that G-d had a clear preference as to who should be president. I’m not sure it makes any difference to G-d who was elected, and I’m certain that His will will manifest itself unchanged regardless of who occupies the Oval Office.
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NP:Now, I imagine that you would agree that when the average balabos (like me & you & RoB) is attempting to determine who to vote for, our considerations include things like
1) Who’s better for Israel?
2) Who’s better for the economy?
3) Who’s better for education? etc. etc.
However most of us never think in terms of “Who’s better for Hashem”? Or, “Who does Hashem want us to vote for”?
CESQ replies: Imagine all you want. You have no idea what goes through anyone’s mind. I posit to you, some people don’t even understand their own thoughts. Besides aren’t weall taught from kindergaarten on that we have to be avadim of Hashem and we must always strive to do His bidding? Is the yeshiva educaion so bad that most of us fail to get the message?
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NP:That’s the difference between Da’as Torah & Da’as Balabayis. Da’as Torah is thinking on a totally different channel then me & you.
Da’as Torah is thinking on Hashem’s channel.
CESQ replies: How do you know? Forgive the sarcasm which pervades much of this post, for all you know a particular gadol preferred Obama’s ties, or Palin’s Biden’s voice. Moreoever since it is imperative to you, in your weltanschaung, for G-d to have a preference, how can you know that a Gadol got it right? Sheesh I mean talk about wasting a vote. Not only could the wrong guy potentially win as a result of a meta-physical miscommunication between G-d and the Gadol, but G-d’s cosmic agenda, which was hanging in the balance, would be jeapordized as a result of some poor Yid voting the wrong way. Perdition could come to the world in the form of Divine retribution becuase Rav so and so or the “Xer” Rebbe didn’t pay close enough attention to G-d’s signal. A modern day Yonah situation might be catacalysmic. In a close election the cosmic stakes are way too high. I’d rather not vote. Fortunately the truth is, G-d could care less who wins any election. His will gets done regardless. G-d’s will can alwasy assume two trajectories; one good one bad. How we act does not shape His will, but might determine if the outcome comes with joy or via pain and suffering. Your assumption that there is a right or wrong course of action for every situation, is problematic in terms of the effect of teshuva. Of what use is our regret once our actions have reshapen our destiny? But in my system of belief, where it makes no difference what we do in terms of G-d’s ultimate will, teshuva is very effective. It puts us back on the track of getting to the end result through prosperity and joy.
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NP:Therefore being that the question here is, “Who does Hashem want to be President”? & NOT “Who do WE think will make a better President”? the Gedolim are eminantly more suited to make such a decision than ourselves.
CESQ replies: As I said before I don’t think G-d cares who is president. But I would have less trouble accepting this if all the “Gedolim” (which is also a nebulous term, but that’s a discussion for a different day) always intuitively and independantly agreed and came to the same conclusion. That they don’t, given the precarious position in which culmination of G-d’s plan is placed by this ludicrous system, I reject it.
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NP:As I stated earlier, does this mean Gedolim can never err? Of course not.
CESQ replies: But when they do, why should I trust them again? Is your belief based on nothing more than playing the odds? Pascal’s wager was always repugnant to me for the same reason that a mesachek bkubya is invalidated as witness. There is something . . .so very. . .well sleazy about people who live their lives by playing the odds, the winners all the more so. My relationship to G-d is not formed in a casino and not based on statistics. That a Gadol may have a better chance of knowing what G-d wants is not a legitimate basis for me to put my faith in him. I’d rather make the honest effort on my own and perhaps grow as a result.
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NP: Does this mean the Gedolim can never disagree? Of course not.
CESQ replies: But those disagreements, assuming they are l’shem Shamayim (and I’m skeptical VERY skeptical about that assertion) colapses the entire house of cards.
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NP:However the people who ask Da’as Torah such questions are asking for the same reason they ask Rabbanim Halacha questions – because they want to do Ratzon Hashem.
CESQ replies: This is not about acting in good faith. This is not about the hamon am. This is not even about the Gedolim, and it certainly is not about G-d. It’s about what is proper Jewish belief. I’ve poked hole after hole in this silly notion called Da’as Torah. All you do in response, is repeat the doctrine in different ways. Sorry, the emperor has no new clothes, he is as naked as he was the day he was born.
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NP: For example, I remember reading in the biography of R’ Pam Zatza”l about how someone once came to R’ Pam with the following scenario, He lived in Brooklyn & had a decent job & made enough money to get by with no problems at all.
He was now being offered a job out of town with a HUGE salary. What should he do?
You would say, R’ Pam is not any more qualified to answer such a question than me or you. However that is only correct if the question is, “What’s best for me”?
If the question is “What does HASHEM THINK is best for me”?, suddenly R’ Pam is in first place.
CESQ replies: Why? Because he’s a Gadol and knows Da’as Torah? That leads us back into the circular reasoning I pointed out on Friday.
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NP: It would be worth your while (you too rabbiofberlin – & everyone for that matter) to purchase the Sefer “Derech Sicha” which is a compilation of non-halachik questions (hashkafa) which were asked to R’ Chaim Kanievsky Shlit”a. It is absolutely incredible to see how every single query was answered with a Passuk in Chumash or a Midrash etc.
Because a Gadol is in tune with what HASHEM wants – we are not.
So it is with all such issues.
CESQ replies: AHA!!! GOTCHA!!!! You now have posited something different entirely. R. Kanievsky answered non-Halachik questions based upon aggadaic and other SOURCES. In other words, he was erudite and applied his erudition, keen intellect and powers of inductive reasoning to a situation presented to him and gave sage advice to a questioner. That’s all well and good. Believe it or not, on the big questions in my life, I too seek out sage advice from Torah luminaries. I too believe they have unique and significant input to give. I intuitively feel that their expertise in Baba Batra or in Arvei Pesachim gives them profound insight into my mundane personal issues. It was a rav, in consultation with other greater rabbanim, who determined when to pull the plug on my father. It was a rav who’s advice I followed in choosing a profession. I proposed to my wife only after I took her to meet my rebbe (he told me if I wasn’t engaged to her when he next saw me, he was finished with me) But getting advice from great people, is a far cry from positing that such advice comes directly from G-d via the Gadol. We no longer have the Urim vTumim and it’s time we stopped trying to replace it with an ersatz imitation. Moreover, we didn’t always understand what G-d imparted to us via the Breastplate either.
CESQ – 1393 words in your post – have some patience because it might take some time before this gets approved.
YW Moderator-72 (unless another moderator is in the mood for heavy reading tonight)
Instead of Will Hill starting all these personal threads, YW should have editable profiles for members so anyone can write what they want about themselves if they so wish and anyone can click on a member’s name or the member link under it to see what that member has divulged.
As for the topic, I am a Jew. daven ashkenazi, went to yeshiva, still consider myself Yeshivish although some may disagree.
TH:cantoresq: Your answers were a delight to read and I will honestly say that they made me think….
CESQ replies: Then I was a success. The ides is to stimulate thought. Non thinking dialogue is a waste of time.
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TH:1) I do not understand your train of thought, why must daas Tora have to be absolute for everyone?
CESQ: Because in the system of Da’as Torah, there is only one right answer to any problem.
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TH:Why can’t it be Divine will that A should vote X and B to vote Y? Who HaShem wants should win is a different question and HaShem will insure that His desired candidate will win anyway.
CESQ: Then you need to explain why He would want someone to vote for the wrong guy. Moreover, the Gedolim who proclaim Da’as Torah in an election (to use this very easy and appropos hypothetical) tend to say “G-d wants “X” to win.” Not “G-d wants you to vote for “X” and he might not be the one He wants to win.”
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TH: This idea that we must do what is right anyway regardless of the consquences and HaShem will worry about the outcome is all over in Chazal.
CESQ replies: I’m no baki in Shas and Midrash, but the examples of doing the right thing even if it leads to a wrong result that come to mind tend to be about reaffirming the integrity of the Halachik process and the need for continuity and predability within the law (i.e. the execution of R. Eliezer’s son, and the Ramban in Sanhedrin on whether Beth Din should ever admit to having made a mistake if it executes a innocent man). Perhaps you know of an instance where people were told to do the wrong thing becuase G-d wanted them to do the wrong thing and for no other reason. If you do, give me the reference.
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TH: Tomor was prepared to die so as not to embarrass Yehuda even though she was carrying the future of Klal Yisroel (the ancestors of ????? ??? ??? and ??? ?????), to cite one example.
CESQ replies: Sorry, but the text doesn’t say Tamar was ready to die. Quite the contrary when her silence didn’t save her, she produced the walking stick, the evidence of her innocence, and Yehuda had to admit the truth and said “Tzodka mimeni” Nor does it say that she knew who her progeny would be.
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TH: Our job is not to ensure results but to act in the correct way and the results will follow.
CESQ replies: You’re not really saying anything here
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TH: Once you accept this basis then, I think, your arguement falls away. It is not a contradiction in Divine will for one Gadol to say vote X and another to say vote Y as nobody is saying that they are telling us who HaShem wants should WIN but how HaShem wants us to act and vote. Therefore it can be correct that Ger should vote X and Litvaks Y as I have argued all along.
CESQ: For the reasons above I don’t accept your basis.
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TH: 2) Here you touch on another very valid point. Chazal tell us “??? ?? ??”, how to choose is another subject BUT once you have chosen then stay there and dont move around at your own convenience.
CESQ replies: You didn’t read my hypotheical. I posited that the person is question picks a gadol to follow to his detriment, i.e. against his personal interest but out of a real desire to act truthfully; even if it harms him.
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TH: If you are a Gerrer then follow the Gerrer Rebbe ALWAYS etc.
CESQ: Always? What should a Spinka chasid do? (I don’t mean to muck rake or cast aspersions. But TH says one much always follow his rav. What is one to do when it is proven that his rav is a knave?) What does the recent indictment of the Spinka Rebbe, which was based wire taps and the testimony of co-conspirators, say about his “Da’as Torah” and his past pronouncements? What about other chassidic groups and their rebbes who have been embroiled in similar scandals? (PARDON me for asking.) What am I, an outsider, to make of the Da’as Torah of roshei yeshiva who have built their institutions on basis of benefits fraud perpetrated by their avreichim, said fraud either encouraged or tolerated by the leadership? Who are the people we are “making” into leaders and then imbuing them with Divine insight? For G-d’s sake!!! Where is the integrity that ought to be the undergirding and the key linchpin to this entire belief system? Assuming this absurd notion had any validity, those who espouse it have made a mockery of it. The schorah is there, but where’s the Torah?
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TH: 3) This question was once asked to the Ponovhez Rov ztl after a speech where he compared the Jews to an army. Just as an army has different units for different duties – a navy for sea fighting, an airforce, tank units, foot soldiers – each to his purpose but combining to win the war, so too the Yidden have chassidim, litvaks, sephardim etc. each to his purpose but combining to do Divine will. The question was then asked about the position of Conservative and Reform as they too are part of the “army”. The Ponovhez Rov ztl answered on the spot, of course they are part of the army, they are the deserters…. Need I add another word!
CESQ replies: Now you’re contradicting yourself. Above you suggested that G-d’s plan might include people doing the wrong thing. You further posited that proclamations of Da’as Torah are not about what G-d ultimately wants, but are about what G-d wants individuals to do, His ultimate agenda notwithstanding. Now as regards heterodox Jews, you cast them either out of the pale of fulfilling Divine will, or as evil doers, depending on how you understand the Ponevizher’s use of the term “deserters.” Which is it? Does G-d intend for people to defy him (an idea I’m becoming attracted to. I’m not considering it as I’m looking for an easy out for my shortcomings. Rather I like it because ot makes it easier to forgive others who leave the folds of observance, which makes it easier for me to understand the world. It also makes G-d an entity I can better relate to. Just like I give my kids controlled opportunities to be a little “bad” (i.e. a raucous water fight on a hot summer day, which I know will ultimatly result in someone getting hit or kicked and crying) because they need the release of those “mischief endorphines” G-d does the same with us. Rav Kook has an essay on the Akeidah which touches on this theme.), or are those do so “deserters?” You can’t have it both ways.
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TH: 4) Your final comment was indeed the hardest to answer!! You phrased it very well!!
CESQ: Thanks
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TH: It is however answerable from both sides. Reb Moshe Feinstein ztl was once asked by a journalist what made him so famous to all Jews? He replied that a lady once asked him a shaila, liked his answer, told her friends who then came too and they continued to spread the word until he became world famous.
CESQ replies: I like that answer. It fits with the injunction of “Asei lecha rav” More importantly, it’s true.
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TH: Gedolim are not born gedolim but become Gedolim.
CESQ replies: Not according to the Artscroll biographies hehe 🙂
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TH: This is a lifetime work of continuous effort in avodas HaShem and something that is almost impossible to imitate (Exceptions like Shabetai Tzvi deserve a separate thread). Gedolim dont know Divine will because they are gedolim but because they are living their whole lives bekedusha ubetahara and immersed continuously in divrei Torah and yiras shomayim. This entitles them to the siyata dishmaya and ability to judge situations according to the Torah and its Writer.
CESQ replies: Do you know that, or do you believe that? There is a big difference. I happen to believe you are probably right. I believe that there are holy people in the world, and that they become holy as a result of great spiritual effort. I think that such people might be able to intuit the right answer to big issues more often than others, assuming they have accurate facts before them. And that’s where this all breaks down. Time and time again it’s been shown that Gedolim make Da’as Torah pronouncements without first learning all the facts from all points of view. Garbage in, garbage out.
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TH: Similarly, HaShem plants in every generation a select few to be these leaders of klal Yisroel – ??? ??? ????????. This is included in the brocho of ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ???’ and therefore HaShem ensures that His leaders are available and accessible in each generation and it is OUR job to follow them.
In short, a Godol knows Divine will because he has worked on himself all his life to be a fitting messenger of HaShem AND because HaShem has chosen him.
CESQ replies: That’s all well and good, but it doesn’t resolve anything. It does not address trhe problem of accurate facts, the problem of disputes between gedolim, nor what I will dub the “deserter issue.”
As a postscript, I hope I’m accomplishing two things in this conversation (which I might add is extremely enjoyable). First, that people realize the side of non- acceptance of Da’as Torah is grounded in legitimate Jewish doctrine. Second to paraphrase the Rav zt”l religious moderation does not equal religious ambivalence. People should know that too.
YW Moderator-72: Certain issues and certain interloquitors deserve lengthy treatment.
I am going to approve your two lenghty posts shortly, however, please try to keep future posts to a more managable length. (3026 words in 2 posts alone) I also request that this dialogue be stopped on this thread as the whole conversation has been discussed here in great length as well as in other threads previously. Thank you. YW Moderator-72
Moderator-72, If I may interject myself here for a moment to offer an opinion, I do think this conversation is worthwhile and has not been covered in as great detail on any previous thread — and is surely worthwhile to continue. This is my perspective.
Certainly this go around on the topic is raising subjects not previously addressed.
Bli”n I”ll respond tonight, right now I have’nt got the time
First of all I’d like to thank all of you for waiting so patiently & respectfully for my reply.
BTW Rabbiofberlin, where have you been? Another R’ Shloime weekend? 🙂
O.K. enough chit chat, down to business.
Cantoresq,
1)First of all, even though this was adressed to TH, your question of what to do when one’s Rebbe has been proven a knave is beyond my comprehension.
If your Doctor has been proven to be a fraud would you say to not ask another DR. instead??
2)You say I don’t know what people are thinking when choosing who to vote for.
Maybe so, but I can’t understand how you can possibly think that we are as attuned to Hashem’s desires as R’ Pam! (I understand I’m mixing two responses here) That seems to me as either the epitome of hubris, or maybe you just weren’t thinking when you wrote that. I apologize for my sharp tone but I’m really in shock.
3)You continually refer to what you percieve as my assertation that there is a “heavenly signal” from g-d to a Gadol.
I’ve never made any such statement. (although it certainly could sometimes be the case). All I have been contending throughout, is that someone who is immersed in g-d’s words his entire life will likely (an obvious understatement) know g-d’s will better than someone who is busy posting in the YW coffee room. A contention you continually dispute which frankly (as I already observed) makes me wonder if I’m meant to laugh or cry.
4)How you can say that g-d doesn’t care who will be the next president being that “his will gets done regardless”?
Well, if that’s the case then I guess g-d doesn’t really care about anything at all, does he?
5)You say I’m repeating the same doctrine in different ways.
I agree. Although I wonder if we all aren’t guilty of the same offence.
6)You wonder why, if I admit that a Gadol can err, are we not merely like sleazy casino folk playing the odds.
I don’t understand that one. If you’ll agree (which I imagine you would)that a Doctor or Mechanic or Tailor or Carpenter etc. can err, does this mean that when we ask their advice on medical, car, hem or building matters that we are sleazy casino folk playing the odds?
Any normal human understands that proffesionals know better. Are you now going to make all medical decisions on your own because a doctor can make a mistake? Even if you read a few textbooks?
7) You say that disageements between the Gedolim “collapses the entire house of cards”.
Again, same question, If two doctors disagree does that invalidate both opinions? Are you now better off deciding on your own? Clearly that’s absurd.
Time out for a second.
Referring back to #3, It seems that you are assuming that we are saying that da’as torah is synonymous with Ruach Hakodesh, in which case your collapsing house of cards would have some validity. However that is not the case & therefore the issue is no issue at all.
8) You say you “got me” on the R’ Chaim Kanievsky sefer being that his responses were based on “aggadic & other SOURCES”.
My dear friend, allow me to share with you a teaching of the Chazon Ish Zatza”l.
The Chazon Ish once said, (I believe in that particular instance it was about the ROSH – although he was reffering to all Gedolim) that when a Gadol paskens a Halacha & brings a raya – if you can “shlug up” the raya – you can pasken differently.
However when he says “Libi omer li” – on that you can’t argue – because “libi” encompasses “kol hatorah kula”, & you can’t argue on kol hatorah kula.
You say R’ Chaim based his answer on “SOURCES” & used “keen intellect” & “inductive resoning” to arrive at his conclusions.
The Chazon Ish says that when he DOESN’T give “sources”, his opinion is even MORE valuble!
9) Finally, after putting us through all this torture you show us that this entire dialouge has been one big miscommunication by revealing that you yourself (AHA!!! GOTCHA!!!!)seek out da’as torah on “the big questions in my life” – even on “mundane personal issues”.
You simply prefer to call it “sage advice”. You prefer to look at it as an intellectual issue. O.K. bevakasha, I think it’s more than that, but I’m not as depressed as I was before.
I just feel that the intellect after a while becomes a “sixth sense” or “chush”.
For instance, someone I know had a baby who wasn’t feeling well & took the kid to the pediatrician. A different friend of mine was in the waiting room at the time. The one who was waiting, we’ll call him Reuven, told me that when the doctor came into the waiting room to call in the next patient he noticed the baby & turned white as a ghost. Without saying a word he quickly wrote down an address on a piece of paper, handed the mother a $100 bill & told her to take a cab to that address (a hospital) & take a particular test.
When Reuven’s turn came the Dr. was still visibly shaken & when he asked what that was all about the Dr. responded “That child has cancer”. When Reuven asked him how he knew, after all, he’d only seen the child sitting in the waiting room, the Dr. could not answer.
He just shrugged his shoulders & simply said, “I just knew”. (unfortunately he was correct, although now B”H the chld is fine)
His “keen intellect” & “inductive reasoning” (& experience) had become so much part of his being that HE JUST KNEW.
When R’ Chaim or any Adam Gadol brings a passuk, that’s great.
But sometimes they just know. And that is an outgrowth of living & breathing Torah.
One last point, Why do you admit that you would ask a Rav & find his insight valuble cocerning which proffesion to choose & if a particular girl should become your wife & yet feel they are unqualified proffer an opinion on who should be our next president?
P.S. I hope I’m not in trouble with the moderator now because of you for having too long a post.
Oh, I forgot, you’ve already admitted to being the editor! 🙂
Rabbofberlin: Again I ask you mechila for upsetting you.
YWN Moderator 72: I too believe that there is lots of new ideas and points being raised in this thread so please allow us to continue. (Sorry for the long posts but the subject requires long detailed responses!)
Cantoresq: Due to the time difference in Israel, I could not wait for your response but I will try to clarify my position now.
“CESQ: Because in the system of Da’as Torah, there is only one right answer to any problem.”
Where do you derive that from? As I explained earlier, there is only ONE OUTCOME that G-d will ensure happens whatever we do, right or wrong, but that doesn’t mean that G-d necessarily wants us to work towards that end. Continuing our example of the elections in Yerushalayim – I do NOT mean to try and say I know G-d’s will here or that other possibilities cannot apply etc., I just am using it as an example and as a possible scenario to explain my point – Say HaShem wants to “punish” the chareidim and have a non-orthodox Mayor who will cause problems for them so He will ensure that Barkat will win. This can be achieved in many ways, either causing more chilonim to vote or having an unpopular chareidi candidate or 1001 other options or even different combinations of them. It does NOT follow from this that HaShem wants us chareidim to work for Barkat’s election, He will ensure his victory but it can still be considered a chilul HaShem for a chareidi to vote for Barkat – the chiloni, against Porush – the shomer Shabbos. The results are in HaShem’s capable hands, our duty is to live our lives al Kiddush HaShem. Even if a novi would come and tell us that Barkat will win, we would still have to vote Porush lekadesh Shem Shomayim. One of the “gabboim” of Rav Eliashiv shlita told me recently that the morning following the elections he told the Rov that Porush lost. Rav Eliashiv ignored him, so he tried again unsuccessfully to get an answer until he asked him directly what does the Rov have to say about it. Rav Eliashiv told him that from the beginning he had no misconceptions that Porush would win, he didn’t stand a chance. The only reason he called to vote Porush was lekadesh Shem Shomayim. It was obvious to him that Porush would lose.
Therefore it is no contradiction in daas Torah to have one Godol calling to vote Barkat and another Porush, as daas Torah is NOT assuring that G-d’s wishes will happen, that is in G-d’s own capable hands, but daas Torah is deciding what is the correct thing to do lekadesh Shem Shomayim. HaShem wanted us to vote Porush to be mekadesh Shem Shomayim even though He was ensuring that Porush will lose. Continuing further in this hypothetical explanation, in order to achieve a larger victory to Barkat, G-d decided to arrange the machlokes with Ger and to cause the Gerrer Rebbe to feel that a vote to Porush is a chilul HaShem and to act accordingly. This does not mean that had the relevant parties made peace and not fought, then Porush would have won. No, G-d would have used another method to arrange Barkat’s victory.
This idea is echoed in Yosef’s words to his brothers (?????? ??,?-?) that although they did wrong by selling him, G-d used their error to complete the necessary fulfillment of His will ie providing the sustenance for Yacov and his family during the famine and arranging for Yacov to go down to Mitzrayim. Look in the Midrash (?????? ??? ??,?) that Yacov was supposed to be brought to Mitzrayim in chains but HaShem used the sale of Yoseph as a means to ease the difficulty. So indeed they did wrong but the OUTCOME is the same. Had they not sold Yoseph, the same result would have been achieved in other ways. Were they punished for selling Yoseph?- Yes, Reb Elchonon Wasserman ztl Hyd writes (I think in ????? ??????) that all the blood libels were a direct punishment for the sale of Yosef, others add the ???? ????? ????? too. So we see clearly how G-d’s will is achieved however we act, our aim is NOT to help G-d sort out His problems but to do the right thing and leave G-d to sort Himself out. It can therefore be correct for us to act against the Divine Outcome but to do Divine Will for us and even receive rewards for it. It can therefore follow that group A are supposed to do one thing according to Divine will and group B to do the opposite also according to Divine will. Your assumption that daas Torah must have one answer is based on your assumption that daas Torah is Divine Outcome, that is incorrect.
I think that answers the first few of your points. (About the wordings of these daas Torah’s – well I think that is churlish as the Rabbis dont write them, the askonim do. You should be mature enough to understand that and appreciate that the Rabbonim are calling on you to vote A because that is the right thing for you to do NOT because G-d wants A to win!)
Concerning Tomor, Chazal tell us (Rashi 39,1) that Tomor acted leshem Shomayim and Rashi on the Midrash (85,2) says clearly that her intention was to have the future Kings of Yisroel. Furthermore chazal learn from Tomor that she remained silent and didnt embarrass Yehuda (she sent the stick as a way of informing Yehuda only, Yehuda could have remained silent too and noone would have known and she would have been burnt) that “Better to throw oneself into a furnace than embarrass someone publicly” (Sotah 10b). We see the need to do the right thing even at the expense of losing ones life and the future of clal Yisroel. It is HaShem’s problem to sort out the OUTCOME not ours. In the same Rashi (39,1) he compares Tomor to the wife of Potifar who knew too that she was supposed to have children from Yosef and started out leshem Shomayim but when Yosef refused she did the wrong thing and had him thrown into prison. She lost out but the outcome was the same as Yosef married her daughter. (??? ???? ??? ?? ?????).
Your point of choice of Godol, I dont understand your question. So what if the Godol decides to your detriment. Generally, one doesnt choose a Godol by his opinion on a particular subject, detriment or otherwise. The ??? ?? ?? comes before the questions you have, you dont have questions and each time look for a Godol to conveniently answer what you want. Excuse me if I have misunderstood you but I just dont follow your question.
I think that your next comments about the Spinka Rebbe and others show your true problem. Firstly, believe me I feel the same pain and anger as you at these stories and my heart breaks at the huge chillul HaShem involved each time. However, your almost hysterical monologue convinces me that this is your real reason why you cannot be comfortable with following daas Torah. All the rest is built on this base, the “proofs” etc came afterwards not before. The answer to the problem is included in my previous comment directed to “Rabbiofberlin” with the moshol of the poor farmer whose cow died. G-d will not allow us innocent trusting believers to be led astray by evil rabbinical leaders. He will ensure that they will answer correctly to save us though they will receive their just “rewards” for their actions as well as for daring to imitate being the King’s true servant.
Continuing to the Conservatives and Reforms, they are evildoers (deserters) and do not follow G-d’s will for them to be doing. This does NOT contradict the fact that G-d will use their errors to further His OUTCOME as I explained earlier with the example of using Yosef’s sale to bring Yacov down to Mitzrayim. I do not see the contradiction as you claim.
Your contention that “garbage in, garbage out” is an old problem and again I believe that G-d plays his cards exactly here. Just like in shidduchim when people make enquires about others and are told certain things, everyone calls it hashgacha protis how the right people hear the right things and the wrong ones the bad things etc. so too here, G-d controlls what He wants the Godol to hear (this does not exclude the Godol from doing his homework!!) and his reaction will be in accordance. This too is G-d’s will and perhaps this is our nisayon (maybe the Godol’s too to publicly admit his mistake when made aware of the true facts!!) to continue in our trust even after a mistake.
Dear Cantoresq, I believe I have answered here your three main points but I would welcome any further discussion (assuming that YWN Moderators will allow it). I too am enjoying this intelligent discussion…
Back to the original topic:
What is Your Hashkafic Affiliation?
Yeshivish Ashkenaz.
Notpashut:
i’ll very briefly addresds your post, since there is very little there that is new, and I’ve addressed your theses in other posts.
1. There is a huge difference, from your perspective, between a doctor and a gadol. A doctor does not ever claim to be offering counsel because he knows what G-d wants in a certain situation. Your formulation of Da’as Torah is precisely that. Moreover, no competant doctor ever acts based on instinct. There is always a lab result, a physical examination etc. upon which s/he bases his/her medical opinion.
2. Regarding knavery, how can you be so blithe about it? Do you honestly believe that G-d assits a thief, or a kidnapper or othr criminal in discerning His will? I’m sorry, but when I know first hand about a prominent rosh yeshiva is Israel who assisted his niece in kidnapping her daughter from her father, it is impossible for me to accept that this man is worthy of such Divine grace. When I see roshei yeshiva in New York lie and obfuscate both the truth of an issue and the hunt for truth of the ultimate issue in a case simply to protect the kavod of a family member, how am I to accept that they are divinely inspired? When I see hoi poloi of the Torah world venerate these people, and I know them to be scoundrels (yes Joseph, in these two instances I actually have first hand knowledge. I’ve seen the evidence in both cases), when I sit at a din Torah and hear well resepcted local chareidi dayanim give advice to people how to make the Section u fraud acceptibile Halachikally, aside from getting sick to my stomach, I can’t help but reject the entire system that support belief that these people are on a “different channel” than the rest of us. We all put our pants on one leg at a time.
3. Since you are adamant that each situation has to have a “correct” solution, that gedolim disagree about what is the correct solution, deflates the entire notion of their authority. If the rabbis can’t get their collective act together and come to a uniform conclusion, I an outsider, not alligned with any of them, have no choice but to take a jaundice eye at the whole gestalt. To me this looks like little more than the entirety of chareidiut not wanting to take resopnsibility for their individual choices, and opt to chase their tales instead.
4. My seeking advice from rabbanim is just that, advice. I don’t consider myself bound to adhere to it. I don’t beleive I am sinning if I reject it. BTW, the same rebbe who encouraged me to marry my wife, also tried to discourage me from accepting a particular case early in my career. He felt I wasn’t up to the task and was convinced that either my client would remain a permanent agunah or worse, that I would create an intractible get meusa. I proved him wrong and won. The women get her get which was officiated by a universally accepted dayan, remarried and as far as I know, lives happily ever after. And he was proud of me for it. Advice is just that; advice. Stop trying to make something it was never meant to be.
Truehonesty might be true and honest, but he also a master at sophistry. But a careful reading of his last post reveals that rather than actual deal with the systemic problems I raised, he incorporates them into the system, thereby seemingly resolving them. In truth, his post is a reductio ad absurdum. He relegates my problems to matters of faith, which in the language os philosophy and logic is absurd, since faith cannot, but its very nature, be held up to scrutiny. But his post is significant when compared to notpashut’s. Truehonesty, like me, as opposed to notpashut entertains the fact that any situation calling for da’as Torah might have multiple correct answers and G-d’s will is fulfilled regardless of the result. But he calls the confusion created by the disparities part of the system, since no one really knows what G-d’s agenda is. To be honest I always preferred the Ravaad’s criticism of the Rambam in Hilchot Teshuva on the issue of bechira/Divine omniscience.
I suppose that the those who believe in Da’as Torah take a Kirkegaardian “leap of faith” and find contentment in having done so. But that leap is based on a mistranslation of Fear and Trembling. Soren Abaye Kirkegaard advocated not a “leap OF faith” but rather a “leap TO faith” One has to percieve the faith before taking the leap, and for all the reasons I’ve written, I just don’t see the faith.
Cantoresq: Please elaborate! Thank you for your compliments but I feel you are being unjust in playing down my points as faith and “absurd”. I am wondering if you are not falling down the slope too of brushing off valid proofs so as to save yourself from accepting the truth!! I have never heard of Soren Abaye Kirkegaard so please explain what that is all about. I think I have brought fair solid proof to my position from Chazal in the various posts including those addressed to Rabbiofberlin and you have not even attempted to address them. Your claim “that people (should) realize the side of non- acceptance of Da’as Torah is grounded in legitimate Jewish doctrine” has NOT been shown at all but rather the opposite and until you will clearly address these issues, I think that we can conclude that non-acceptance of daas Torah is based on personal negative feelings against certain rabbinical figures who have erred (and will indeed have to pay the price of their errors in the World-to-come). I once heard from a less known adom godol (in my opinion anyway) who also laments the “wickedness” of certain public rabbinical personalities that the Chazon Ish writes (I dont know where) that sometimes HaShem will give these Roshei Yeshivos/Dayanim/Rebbes all the veneration and kavod they want in this world to pay off any zechusim that they may have earned so that in gehinom they will receive pure hell!! I can hardly accept that Mr Kirkegaard (whoever he may be) is legitimate Jewish doctrine.
My dear cantoresq,
I believe we’ve come to the end of the line.
Although I have what to respond to your most recent post, it is becoming abundantly clear that we are doing no more than spinning our wheels. (I think this may be one point we can agree on).
Someone once asked the Vilna Gaon why he refused to meet a particular individual with whom he vehemently disagreed, after all if he’d meet him, perhaps he would be able to show him the error of his ways.
The Gaon responded as follows:
“It is in my power, through the use of kabbalistic formulations, to pull the sun & moon out of the sky & place them right here on the table. Now, if I can do it, then certainly Shimon HaTzadik could have done it. If so, why didn’t Shimon HaTzadik call in Aristotle, put the sun & moon on the table & show him, once & for all, the truth of the Torah”?
“The answer is, if somebody has a “????”, then even if you pull the sun & the moon out of the sky in front of their eyes – they won’t change their mind”.
Cantoresq,
It seems as though the Gaon knew what he was talking about.
With much pain in my heart I wish you the best & leave you with these very painful words of the Chazon Ish dealing with just our discussion brought in Kovetz Igros Chazon Ish, Chelek Gimmel, letter 92
????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ????, ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???, ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???, ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ??????, ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ????, ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????, ??? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??????.
?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????????, ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????, ????? ?????? ?????, ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ?????
signing off with a heavy heart & a prayer on my lips,
notpashut
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