- This topic has 121 replies, 42 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
What hashkafa do you consider yourself affiliated with?
Litvish/Yeshivish
Chasidish/Heimish
Modern Orthodox/Daati Leumi
Other?
And
Ashkenazic
Sefardic
Yemenite
Other?
Feel free to explain, elucidate or add.
I don’t have any specific affiliation. I daven wherever and I do what I do.
Ashkanazi.
Is this becoming the new trend? asking personal questions about posters? Maybe we should each send in a resume…
If I would want the whole world to know my in’s and outs Will Hill I would update my info filling everyone in with whatever they want to know. But hey, I noticed your pretty curious about people???
But not to be a spoilsport, I’m Litvish, Ashekenzi…(and shoe size 9 to save you from making another topic…)
Ashkenazi of Hungarian lineage. But my father, who was raised int he cradle of Hungaruan chareidiut studied at the Ferec Joseof Rabbikepzo Intiszet, the Rabbinical Seminary in Budapest, which was identified with the neologue community. (Most of the students there came from Orthodox families. So much for the cherem on the place) As such he had a good apperciation fo Wissenschaft des Judentums and used it frequenttly when he learned. Despite a 30 year war with G-d brought about my the Holocaust, he died a shomer Torah u’Mitzvos. I was sent to a Modern coed day school, where Limudei Kodesh was taught Ivrit b’Ivrit. Yom Ha’Atzmaut was a school holiday. I went to a non-hat wearing yeshiva high school, and spent a year in an American black hat styled yeshiva in Israel. Then I went to YU. My personal hashkafa these days is sort of a mixed bag. I believe firmly in Torah u’Maddah as a way of life. At the same time, I also respect religious determinations based on scholarly examination of sources, as opposed to adopting that which seems “frummer.” I bristle at the adoption of policy based upon meta-halachik concerns. Before I accept those, they have to make sense to me and be relevant to my life. I have little use for the notion of “Da’as Torah” Ironically, I am very envious of the piety and seeming spiritual tranquility brought about by adopting that which I reject and I long for that spiritual peace of mind. So I guess I’m very modern/rationalistic in my outlook but not happy with the result.
can someone be “all of the above” ? That describes me pretty well….
I’m modern orthodox and Ashkenaz.
Why is everyone so worried about revealing themselves? I can kind of guess many people’s affiliations anyway.
Im a poshite Yid
and I’m a POOSHITER YEED
SJSinNYC,
that would be more fun!
why don’t we all guess about eachother today and tomorrow we’ll all say who was right. 🙂
By the way. I didn’t have to guess about you, I KNEW.
P.s. Just curious, what do you think about (DELETED BY YW MODERATOR)?
cantoresq
“I have little use for the notion of Da’as Torah”.
While generally speaking I don’t have a problem with most of your posts & you seem to be a fine person, nevertheless that statement is borderline apikorsus.
Being that you’re a lawyer & I’m just a regular Joe I know I’m not going to change your mind, but I’ll give it a try anyway.
Clearly a Jew has to do what the Torah wants, I think we can all agree on that.
The notion of Da’as Torah simply states that someone who has spent the last 70 or so years of his life learning Torah uninterruted while living, sleeping & breathing only Torah probably has a better idea than me & you of how the Torah views a particular situation.
Certainly we each have are own views how WE may view it, but our views are coming from minds that are filled with all kinds of junk while the views of an Adam Gadol are generally going to be representative of the Torah’s outlook on the issue.
Therefore being that ultimately we want to do what the Torah wants, it would behoove us to be mevatel OUR da’as to Da’as Torah.
Sjs & intellegent
I also KNEW, all other options were impossible. 🙂
notpashut,
I’m well aware of the argument you put forth. It’s a compelling one. But it is not born out by the majority of primary sources. I refer to you Lawrence Kaplan’s article, Daas Torah: a modern coneption of Rabbinic Authority, on the subject published in Rabbinic authority and Personal Autonomy (Moshe Sokol ed). I suggest you read it. I do not negate that gedolei Torah have very important and edcuated opinions on non-Halachik issues. I don’t discount the importance of seeking out those views. But I completely reject the notion that those points of view are authoritative the way Halacha p’suka is authoritative.
The Rav ZT”L was a gadol who spent his entire life devoted to harbatzas Torah.
His view on “Daas Torah” was that for halachik issues one consults with a Rav.
For non halachik issues, one should consult an expert in that particular field.
For example, when faced with a medical problem you go to see the best available doctor.
When faced with war, you let the generals decide the best course of action.
In other words, you don’t necessarily consult a Rav about every facet of life.
If that makes him/me an apikores, I’m okay with that.
Religious standing – Frum.
Heritage – mutt.
1/3 Ashkenazy, 1/3 Sefardy, 1/3 Other.
Looks like we have a Joseph McCarthy the II over here…
These classifications are useless, and lead only to sinas chinam.
Will Hill,
some ideas for future threads you may want to start…
…What is your occupation?
…What is your annual income?
…Which bank do you use and what is you account number nad current balance?
…What is your social security number?
anyone else have ideas?
…marital status?
Illini – I dont think it promotes sinas chinam. I think its interesting to see how people classify themselves.
I have a friend who never calls herself “frum” just observant. She says the connotation of “frum” is that you just are more machmir for the sake of it, not for understanding what the halacha is. She is extremely observant and keeps halacha better than anyone I know!!
What is Your Hashkafic Affiliation?
A little bit of this, a little bit of that.
I once wrote about we take some things from different derachim of Judaism. I called it “Wolfish Judaism.”
The Wolf
Hey Will Hill I really like your threads.keep them coming
cantoresq
Will, you are trying to profile everybody here?
Charlie Brown, you forgot the obvious……
Please submit your full name, address, telephone number, cell number, email address together with a recent photo 2″ x 2″ and verified by a Rabbi or professional confirming this is you !!!
Finger print and iris checker would be appreciated as well
notpashut
Member
cantoresq
Check out http://www.jlaw.com/articles/cohen_daattorah.pdf
_______________________________________________________________________________________
I’ve read the Cohen Article before, and found it unconvincing. He is mistaken in his assertion that Kaplan relies only on his challenge to the Rashba. Kaplan, relying heavily on the Rambam, has several other sources for his refutation of the modern day formulation of da’as Torah. But I’ll read R. Cohen’s article again, if you’ll read Kaplan’s
Will:
Then I guess I classify myself as “Jewish.” I live and daven in a modern orthodox community, I went to a Yeshiva, but I don’t ascribe to any “sect” so to say.
cantor
Can you get me a link?
At the end of the day though, we’ll probably be back in the same place with the same opinions.
I am not Orthodox… I am a TORAH Jew(or at least i try) – and, yes, there is a vast difference.
Heimish/Yeshivish/Ashkenaz
cantoresq: Can you explain (to the non-Hungarians) who/what the Neolog’s where? Are they somewhat akin to todays Conservative/Mosarati’s? What were there beliefs? (And what about the “Status Quo”? When did they disappear, why, how where they different?) Do they still exist in meaningful numbers? Were they only in Hungary?
rabbiofberlin: That sounds quite “mixed up”! What are you… a heimishe litvak of sefardic heritage?
yoshi: How are you 1/3, 1/3, & 1/3!?!? Heritage can be broken in 1/2’s or 1/4’s (or 1/8’s, etc.) But 1/3’s are impossible!! (And what is “other” anyways that you speak of?)
I could pretty much guess most posters affiliations.
Why not post yourself, it would be interesting!
I was raised in a home where the divrei torah at the table were from sefarim of many leagues… from the most chassidish rabbanim to the litvaks of the century. My home was open to every type of Yid that needed a place… I never heard my parents say “they are not one of US” though they clearly layed down the groundwork of the derech they wish for us to go.. and you know we all took their groundwork and developed in the derech that we felt was appropriate for us! I sure had a culture shock when I came in contact with all types of ppl who never heard of such a lifestyle! 🙂 I am proud to say I have shaiches with birds of many different prey!
Bogen-“How are you 1/3, 1/3, & 1/3!?!? Heritage can be broken in 1/2’s or 1/4’s (or 1/8’s, etc.) But 1/3’s are impossible!! (And what is “other” anyways that you speak of?)”
My father is one way, my mother another and my husband another. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1. “Other,” implies, “personal,” as in, none of anyone’s business.
P.S. Why the need for so much unnecessary punctuation?
cantor
I’ve read the Kaplan article.
As I expected we’ve gotten nowhere. How an intelligent person such as yourself can view such drivel as convincing of your position is beyond my comprehension.
As Rabbi Cohen & Rabbi Wein have pointed out, it is full of historical inaccuracies, insults the charachter of Rabbi Soloveitchik & (my addition) is written in an overall tone unbecomeing of someone considred to be a respected scholar.
Personal biases are clearly evident & shoddy proofs are presented.
All in all I would call it a masterpiece of Anti-chareidi propaganda.
BTW – Let the objective reader note that the two people defending the chareidi veiwpoint on the Da’as Torah issue are Rabbi ALFRED! Cohen & Rabbi Berel Wein. Not exactly the type of chareidi, stone throwing, flag burning, causing youth to go off the derech, maniacal zealots one would have expected based on the Da’as Torah bashers presentation of the issue.
notpashut, cantoresq,
Regarding rabbinic authority – see Choshen Mishpat 2, and the excellent discussion in Tzitz Eliezar (19:51).
born: 1/2 ashkenazi, 1/2 sephardi and married to ashkenazi chassidish who attended litvish yeshivas.
Well, I had hoped to stay out of this discussion but the last posting compelled me to answer this…
notpashut- I have read the articles in discussion and I think you are being totally hoodwinked by people who try to control everything you do.
You can talk till you are blue in the face but it is so clear that the modern “daas torah’ aspect is a modern invention that I am surprised anyone could even decry otherwise.
Till the twentieth century, you don’t even FIND this concept anywhere. I challenge you (and any others) to find anywhere, in the vast library of teshuvos, seforim ,pirushim,over the last two thousand years, that, IN MATTERS OF EVERYDAY LIFE, you have to exclude your own “sechel” and defer to any Rabbonim.
The lav of “lo sosur’ is clearly said ONLY for DIVREI HALACHA.
I will I”YH bring you some very specific proofs but, for the time being, please answer my challenge.
I was born to yeshivish/baal baatish parents. I attended a MO high school and BY seminary. Then I married someone from a heimish/chassidish background. You tell me what that means.
in my younger years i indulged very much in the latest fashions
Count me as a Ben Torah who coincidentally (and of no great importance) is of Ashkenazic stock.
As far as the other terms, I’ve heard myself being called Baal Habatish (whatever that means), Heimish, Yeshivish, Frum, Orthodox, Ultra-Orthodox, Chareidi, and a host of other names I don’t remember, nor care to.
the titles and categories people place others in is really getting out of hand these days
Rabbiofberlin
I’m not discussing weather or not to ask da’as torah before going to the bathroom or not.
I’m talking about relying on da’as torah in terms of how to view world happenings & yes, even on the issue of leaving Europe before the war.(The da’as torah bashers greatest weapon).
The fact is that often times when someone has been a doctor for a while they develop a sixth sense (or “chush”) to be able to diagnose correctly without performing tests.
The same applies for a mechanic, plumber, appliance repairman etc. etc.
L’havdil, so it is with Gedolim. When someone has spent their entire life immersed in torah – the word of g-d – their thoughts & outlooks become the thoughts & outlooks of torah.
This is not something that needs sources or proofs, this is simple common sense.
As far as many Gedolim advising the people to stay in Europe – maybe just maybe they were right, because that’s what the torah wanted & their minds automatically tuned in to the ratzon hashem.
How could it be that Hashem wanted six million jews to die? I have no idea, but obviously that’s what he wanted (or decreed) ’cause otherwise it would not have happened.
To deny that the outlook of an Adam Gadol (Da’as Torah) is the outlook of the torah is just closing your mind to an obvious reality.
But than how can there be conflicting views? “Shiv’im ponim l’torah”.
Unlike medicine, plumbing, cars etc. etc.
Modern Orthodox, Ashkenazi. (No surprise there, right?) But I don’t see that it really matters.
rabbiofberlin
I responded to you but it seems as though they’re not willing to put it up on the big screen.
BS”D
Neturei Chabad here.
ashkenaz.
oberlander. (i think that falls under litvish)
Bogen
Member
Heimish/Yeshivish/Ashkenaz
cantoresq: Can you explain (to the non-Hungarians) who/what the Neolog’s where? Are they somewhat akin to todays Conservative/Mosarati’s? What were there beliefs? (And what about the “Status Quo”? When did they disappear, why, how where they different?) Do they still exist in meaningful numbers? Were they only in Hungary?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Neolog refers to the Hungarian Liberal Jewish community. At it’s inception, it was identified with the Positivist Historical School established by R. Zecharias Fraenkel of Breslau. It never went as far as Geiger’s Hochshule fur Wissenschaft des Judentums. Currently the seminary is affiliated with the Jewish Theological Seminay (Conservative Judaism). As to their beliefs, I recomend that you read Moshe Carimilly Weinberger’s centenary festschrift about the Seminary. The status quo congregations were kehillot that declined to join the seperatist Orthodox after the Congress of 1868. Thier reasons for not joining were many, but in most cases it boiled down to their resentment of the rabbinic control of the kehillot amongst the Orthodox congregations and money. They saw no benefit to their individual kehilla in joining. these were however fully Halachik communities. The Maharam Schik placed a cherem on Orthodox rabbis and shochtim ministering to them, but as far as I know, they never lacked for klei kodesh.
notpashut
Member
cantor
I’ve read the Kaplan article.
As I expected we’ve gotten nowhere. How an intelligent person such as yourself can view such drivel as convincing of your position is beyond my comprehension.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
I’m not going to do this again. I’m too tired forom the last battle on this topic. That Rabbis Cohen and Wein disagree with Prof Kaplan is their perogative. I certainly would not say that belief in da’as Torah is illegitimate. Nor do I discount the Judaic validity of those who adhere to it (as opposed to those who invalidate me as a believing Jew for my rejection of it) I happen to not accept it. The Kaplan article put into words that which I instinctively felt about the subject. The concept makes no sense to me. Feel free to brand me a apikoires if you wish. I really don’t care. Moreover, insulting those whose views I esteem will no more bring me to embrace the idea than will branding me an ignoramus or heretic.
Will Hill: Oberlander (over the land) is a section (im not sure where), theres another one called underlander, or something like that.
im pretty sure its litvish, because the only chassidic lineage i have comes from my grandmother, who’s father was a gerrer chassid.
im not sure though, is there anyone that knows definitely??
cantoresq,
Thanks for all that. Were the Neolog’s religious practices closer to today’s Orthodoxy or Conservative/Mosarati? And are there any meaningful practicing Neolog communities left? (BTW, the “status quo” practiced Judaism like the Orthodox [i.e. it was just a political division]? And what has become of them?) What caused the rift in 1868?
Where can I get Weinberger’s writing?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.