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Coffee is just nasty
Well-put ZeesKite! 🙂
I’m not sure everyone would agree that it’s permissible to use on Shabbos as it is not “heat brewed” during the process.
The coffeee brewed as I describe with double strength grounds,with water added to bring it to the proper reconstitution, tasted INFINTELY better than instant coffee.
After seeing it used twice here, i gotta ask. Isn’t it called tea essence??
I dont know if this was mentioned already, so here goes. Nescafe makes a Nescafe Gold that is far superior to any available instant coffee sold here in the US. This Gold is available in HK where I buy it usually or anywhere in Europe. It can be bought online also and shipped from the UK.
…coffee through a filter is NOT borer. The only thing I remember is that the water goes in and comes out after passing thru the coffee. They were never considered a mixture
It’s a mixture as it sits in the grounds cooking the coffee.
I asked a posek, not someones brother-in-law
Sorry, but I think you’ll need a better source than that. Besides, why does the fact that someone doesn’t have any married sisters qualify him to pasken?
The kli revii is necessary for the bishul aspect
Implied in the requirement for a kli revii is the fact that a kli shlishi would not be okay (which is certainly true according to the Aruch Hashulchan and Mishna Berurah). Since the A.H. and M.B. don’t mention, AFAIK, the heter of a kli revii, it should still be assur (unless the water is below yad soledes bo, in which case even a kli rishon would be okay).
A brother in law doesn’t need to have married sisters, he could be referring to his wife’s brother.
A brother in law doesn’t need to have married sisters, he could be referring to his wife’s brother.
He obviously doesn’t have any of those either, and the same question applies (if we continue to be way too literal): why does that qualify him to pasken?
I asked a posek,
Sorry, but I think you’ll need a better source than that
I don’t know, I think asking a posek is pretty much all that I need to determine if something is okay or not.
But I will be sure to let the Rav know that he made a mistake about the coffee and grounds being a mixture. I’ll tell him someone on the internet mentioned it so he should re-consider 🙂
Seriously though, if someone tells me that their posek said that something is okay, instead of telling them it is wrong, I would probably say that I am not sure I understand their ruling.
And I am assuming you were being funny about the brother-in-law comment but just in case – I did NOT say I asked a posek WHOM is not someone’s brother in law. I said that I asked a posek, as opposed to just asking a random yankel for his opinion.
I don’t understand the klei revii part but that was what I was told.
After seeing it used twice here, i gotta ask. Isn’t it called tea essence?? “
It probably originates from the word “essence,” but is simply referred to as tea “sense” (could it be Yiddish for essence?)
I also want to comment as SL”Ch mentioned, if one believes that someone’s poseik paskened “wrong,” it really behooves us to not criticize immediately, but to say we do not understand the p’sak. Several years ago I made mention of something here and was immediately attacked by a few posters who basically called me a mechalleles yom tov (not in those terms). A couple of (must be older, of my own generation) posters came to defend my position (with raayos), but the others were adamant that I was doing the wrong thing. It was of no interest to the naysayers, that my Rov, a well-known and respected Poseik ZT”L, was the one who personally instructed me in doing what I did (something which frum people were able to still do at one time decades ago, but no longer may). They were going for blood. I ALMOST lost my temper then, but I believe I remained true to my belief that one may disagree without being disagreeable.
The bottom line is one may not have all the pertinent facts, and as learned as one may be, another person’s Rov may be even more so and know of legitimate heterim of which you are unaware, or even that the halacha is not precisely as you believe it to be. That is why we have rabbonim.
Stop second-guessing everyone’s halachaic authorities, and be concerned with how well you follow your own Rov’s piskei halacha. At the very least, don’t tell someone his Rov is wrong, though there is nothing wrong with expressing that you hold differently. While rabbonim can and do sometimes err (possibly due to not being given all the facts crucial to coming up with a final p’sak), most follow a specific m’halach, and know what they are saying and doing when asked a Shailah.
Borer? 39 Melachos? Please!
Haven’t you learned mishnayos in your life?
The second mishna in the 20th chapter of mesechta shabbos, which is on 139b, clearly states that this is muttar.
I dont drink coffee…Dunkin Doughnuts Hot cocoa with whip cream!
whats your favorite hot cocoa brand? (lets c how many ppl are going to make sure to shape me up by telling me DD isn’t kosher)
Coffee is one of the causes for yene Machle.
dhl: the only ones who havn’t tried Dunkin Doughnuts are the doughnuts minus the dough my friend;)
Coffee is one of the causes for yene Machle.
Yet for some reason it isn’t listed as a product known to the State of California to produce cancer. (Perhaps it is due to lobbying by the California Coffee Growers Association.)
Wikipedia has the following:
Coffee consumption is also correlated in Africa to a reduced risk of oral, esophageal, and pharyngeal cancer. In ovarian cancer, no benefit was found. In the Nurses’ Health Study, a modest reduction in breast cancer was observed in postmenopausal women only, which was not confirmed in decaffeinated coffee, and a reduction in endometrial cancer was observed in people who drank either caffeinated or decaffeinated coffee. According to one study, coffee protects the liver from cancer. Another preliminary study found a correlation between coffee consumption and a lower risk of aggressive prostate cancer.
I don’t know, I think asking a posek is pretty much all that I need to determine if something is okay or not.
For yourself, yes, (if he’s a legit posek and you understood his answer properly), but from my perspective, I can’t accept a sevara which makes no sense to me based on someone on the internet quoting an unnamed posek whose only qualification is that he doesn’t have any brothers- or sisters-in-law (of course this is my [attempt at a]sense of humor).
Thanks for clarifying. And I certainly didn’t mean for anyone to accept my psak, I only intended for others to know what was said so they can look into it further themselves. See oomis’ response, however, for my response to your response. (Except for the funny part. It speaks for itself).
DASH, I have come across that “known in the State of California” line on a few things. What precisely does it mean, besides the obvious? Did they do testing ONLY in California, and some geniuses there who apparently never travel outside of California, have issued a stern advisory on those products?
Oomis,
Understood, you make a very good point. However, often people post here a halacha as halachah peshutah, to mattir that which is, at the very least, controversial. As much as we’d like to think that people are intelligent, discriminatory and honest enough not to follow a halacha they found posted online, I’m sure many people do. I also, as I explained to Syag, don’t necessarily think that anyone who posts something in the name of a posek is quoting him correctly, or for that matter is really quoting a qualified posek.
Please take anything I post here as my own opinion, backed up, as much as I can, by traceable sources and, hopefully, sound sevara, but of course, one should follow a psak they have received from a legit posek, not my opinion or that of any anonymous poster.
As far as the actual halacha:
Syag:
But I will be sure to let the Rav know that he made a mistake about the coffee and grounds being a mixture.
You could let him know that if his sevara is based on the Chazon Ish in O.C. 53, who says this about sand which accumulated in a filter through which mostly clean water is being poured, there are two distinctions:
1)The CH”I states that the sand doesn’t move (because of it’s weight) which is visibly not true with coffee, in which you can see the coffee grounds floating in the water accumulating atop the grounds.
2)That’s not considered a mixture because you have no interest in the water touching the sand, but that’s not the case with the coffee; you obviously need that contact for the coffee’s flavor to be infused into the water. Ayil Meshulash,in 4-40-(111), makes this distinction (he is referring to a case where there are tea leves in a filter, through which water is being poured). Also in 4-7-(19), Ayil Meshulash (in the name of R’ Nissim Karelitz) rejects the notion that the water in the wine sediments (which, as HWGA said, would have been the source for a heter) is not a mixture, based on a clear diyuk from the Chazon Ish and Mishna Berurah.
I’m not trying to cast aspersions on the posek with whom you consulted. Maybe I’m wrong (although I’m pretty sure I read the Ayil Meshulash correctly), and maybe you misunderstood him.
HWGA:
Haven’t you learned mishnayos in your life?
The second mishna in the 20th chapter of mesechta shabbos, which is on 139b, clearly states that this is muttar.
You would have served your cause better to quote the Shulchan Aruch (319 – 9), because the Ran and others learn differently than Rash”i, and the Shevisas HaShabbos (as quoted by Ayil Meshulash; I didn’t see SH”HSH inside) says that it’s because they hold there are borer issues in that case.
Despite the fact that the S.A. paskens like Rash”i, in this case, I believe there would still be a problem of borer.The coffee holds back the water for a little while, and I don’t think we can view the entire process, from the pouring of the water over the grounds through it’s exiting with the coffee flavor absorbed in it, as one action without the tachlis of borer. In the case of the wine sediments, we are viewing it as one complete process. See Ayil Meshulash, 9 – 6 – (21) (he doesn’t make this distinction explicitly, because he’s not discussing coffee).
MORE: lol thank you for your support!! ha ha 🙂 I guess it doesnt take much to put a smile on my face… 😉
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