What is the purpose of girls going to Seminary?

I would say that you are in fact not that well informed.

While many girls “frum out” in seminary most don’t. Many may become more frum just as a bochur from HS through BM might.

WellInformedYid, excuse my ignorance, but why 2 round trip tickets? Don’t they come in Ellul and leave in the summer?

I do think that it is necessary because many times that is the last year that they will receive a full dose of hashkafa for the rest of their lives, unless they make a strong effort to seek it out, and at 17/18 I dont think anyone has all their hashkafos set for life.

I’m not sure however how necessary going to Eretz Yisroel is. Yes, it is very nice to see the kedusha of E’Y, and to see how people live “gashmius free”, but meanwhile at home the parents are tightening their belts so that they can spend the extra 20k. Bottom line is I dont think EVERYONE gains, there are definitely cases where it has done a world of good for girls (and unfortunately the opposite is true) and then there are the majority of cases where the girl just had a year in E’Y where the focus was the teyulim and the fun… for 20k I can say Ma Rabu Maasechu Hashem at the Grand Canyon, it doesnt have to be in E’Y, and it would be a whole lot cheaper.

Boys going to E’Y to learn is a completely diff story, first of all the money issue is non-comparable, it is much cheaper for boys. Also, there is an inyan that you learn Torah much better in E’Y because of the Kedush (please no one say that girls are also learning Torah, I may lose my lunch)

Absolutely think that in MOST cases, Bais Yaakov seminaries are NO DIFFERENT than a 5th year of High School. It’s glorified babysitting- don’t want them to get married yet and don’t want them to go to college yet. I think there is a lot of potential to make it more productive and effective than high school, but unfortunately most people are not so creative, and teach what they have been teaching for the last 20 years and don’t think out of the box. Or teach the same way every other seminary teaches. I always wanted to do real research to see the long-term effects of seminary to get some real research on which seminaries are most effective. To do that, we would have to define very clearly our goals for the seminary way and a measurable way of asessing if they were fulfilled.

Informed person, you should have said Israel. Almost everybody I have ever spoken to, and this includes the girls who did go to Israel, feel that it’s a graet experience but no where near worth what is spent. The girls have peer pressure and the pressure of “I won’t do a good shidduch” syndrome. Is a Porsche better than a Buick or Chevy, sure it is. But if you’re earning $120,000 a year, and that’s a fantastic job, and you have 3 girls to send to seminary and marry off, you can’t afford a Porsche. If your automotive needs are driving around Brooklyn and/or getting to work, a Porsche is a complete waste of money. Something really wrong with the system if a yeshivishe boy and girl can’t do a shidduch unless she attended BJJ and he learned in Brisk. Poor girl “only” went to BY Sem and he went to “just” Lakewood. Whew am I glad I’m chasidish.

Whew am I glad I’m chasidish.

Yes, please tell us about the latitude young chasidim have in choosing how they want to live.

Tell us about the objective standards you don’t impose.

WIY: It is not necessary for girls to come home for Pesach (or for parents to visit midyear).

And we need more dorm options for out of towners in the N. American seminaries.

Moq: good point. For the working poor who don’t qualify for a lot of grants an American sem can be quite expensive too. And there are a variety of grants that ONLY apply for E”Y, such as MASA (which has looser income guidelines), local Federations, and others. It will still be pricier but it cuts some of the costs. And the girls can keep it real too.

I’m not convinced that h.s. can give the girls all they need. In their later teens the girls need some good, unplugged discussions that aren’t appropriate in 12th grade, and that not all 12th grade teachers can handle. Also, considering that so many girls are going to be going for higher degrees, why not let them have some higher, more sophisticated and in depth learning?

Now, you NYers are saying absolutely! Let my girls start their programs and consistently take night sem classes. They’ll grow, maybe find some teachers with whom to build a kesher, etc. There are wonderful summer or short term E”Y programs that we can probably swing to give our daughter a meaningful E”Y experience.

But think beyond the Hudson. Out of town parents would love such options but will not send their daughters to live in an apt. at that point. WE NEED DORMS!!!

Please people, before commenting, maybe you want to say, this will only apply to NY.

Um, Yavne is around 5k plus boarding. Doesnt touch Israel pricing (neither does the experience)

Boys (depending on the child) can benefit from the Torah of Eretz Yisroel. There is no reason girls can’t go to a local seminary.

“You can go ahead and pay $40,000 a year for your daughter in seminary while I pay $6,000 for the same education plus the adiitional satisfaction of knowing on a daily basis that she and her friends are acting like fine yidishe maidlech.”

Dont kid yourself into thinking that Chasidim have less problems then non chasidim. Both sides have some negatives and many positives.

Arc, absolutely right. I don’t kid myself with the problems of American Orthodoxy in general, chasidish, yeshivish, modern, whatever. But BH chasidish girls don’t generally go to Israel and BH those who do go to seminary here are wonderful girls. I think that’s what this discussion was about, going to seminary here or Israel. I don’t see that the BY seminary of BP girls are on a lesser yiddishkeit madreige nor learn less than their Israeli educated counterparts. This is not a case of “you get what you pay for”.

I agree with theprof1 on many points. The following are definitely true:

1) The chinuch in most USA seminaries is at least equal to their counterparts in E”Y.

2) It costs a bloody fortune to send your daughter to seminary in E”Y vs. USA

3) If you are a frequent visitor to E”Y, then you see what I see – girls all over town, and boys too. You do run the risk vs. as theprof1 says: seeing them daily at home and watching who they hang out with

4) The idea of girls begging for Shabbos meals – and you have no idea where they end up – is very dangerous, and probably disgusting (including the part of eating into the kolel yungermans tight budget)

5) Chassidish people do have less problems doing shidduchim then the yeshivish crowd – ask any shadchan

But all that doesn’t mean that a girls can not absorb the E”Y kedusha and being “mistapek bemiut” being there. And if you can afford it and it works out for you, the bentsch Hashem.

Hatzlocha

arc – nowhere did he say “only”. He said they are fine yiddish maidlach without the Israeli seminary attendance. And what he stated is factually correct.

THEPROF WROTE “while I pay $6,000 for the same education plus the adiitional satisfaction”

That quote says only ben Torah.

Thank you Ben Torah. I reviewed my posts. No where do I say that only chasidish girls act like fine yiddishe maidlech. My chasidish daughter attending BY Seminary has 5 very close friends, 4 are yeshivish, including a rosh yeshiva’s daughter. You can’t find nicer girls than these yeshivish maidlech. This was my exact statement which implies nothing else than explicitly saying that BP BY girls are fine.

“You can go ahead and pay $40,000 a year for your daughter in seminary while I pay $6,000 for the same education plus the additional satisfaction of knowing on a daily basis that she and her friends are acting like fine yidishe maidlech.”

I went to seminary, and frankly it wasn’t good for me, and I didn’t go to EY either. However I do see why for many girls it can be very positive. Many girls come out of the BY system without a real sense of direction in life and this gives them an extra year to develop in a kadosh environment.

On the other hand, there is a big gap where a seminary for girls in America should be and hopefully someone will step up to fill it. We need a seminary that is academically rigorous so that girls who want to learn will actually learn. We also need a seminary that is practical and has baking, sewing, home ec classes to help girls who want to be prepared better for marriage. There is room for at least two more seminaries in Brooklyn alone.Many girls do not go to sem in the US because none of the choices work for them.

List of Seminaries I Know About:

Machon sem in Brooklyn is good for girls who are going to college and want to do sem at the same time.

BY intensive is good for girls who do not plan on going to college and want the best Israel experience America can offer.

BY half day is good for girls who want to have a job and learn, some classes are better than others.

There’s a seminary in Monsey a friend of mine attended – not very academic, but very good for an all around type of girl

There’s one in Lakewood that’s supposed to be good but very yeshivish.

Belz sem in BP is very chassidish. I don’t know anyone who went there but heard it is not very academic.

Yavneh – I know a girl who went and was happy with it. However there are problems, I’m not sure what they are.

All the seminaries suffer from a certain hashkafic inflexibility. They seem to feel that they are supposed to force every girl into the same derech of serving Hashem, whatever theirs is – becoming a teacher, mother, etc. They do not take advantage of America’s rabbonim and do not teach achdus with other types of yidden, except maybe in theory.

We can do better.

tzippi -BY intensive, the monsey one, and I think the lakewood one. Yavneh doesn’t have a dorm, you live in people’s houses, I’m not sure of the exact arrangement. There are also Chabad seminaries whose names I don’t know, both for people from frum backgrounds and not, obviously they are not in the same category as the ones YWN readers are interested in but they all have supervised dorms.

I realized I skipped:

Maalot Baltimore: Supposed to be great all around, good teachers, not as against college as the ones in Brooklyn generally are, a little more open minded.

Ateres Naava in Brooklyn by R’ Wallerstien is half – day, I have the impression that many different types of girls go there, generally girls who want to grow. Not strictly for girls coming from 12th grade. I think it’s also not as against college, but have to check with someone who’s attended.

BTW it’s very important to have a SUPERVISED dorms. i’ve heard too many stories of “supervised ” dorms that were really not well supervised.

Sacrilege: Interesting that you say that. I’m sorry and maybe I’m a little cynical based on my experiences but I really have a very hard time believing that. I know the emphasis in Yavne is academics but that doesn’t mean that they don’t try to make you a “Yavne girl” the way that other seminaries try to churn out a specific “type”. Sometimes girls who are compatible with a hashkafah don’t realize when their school is pushing it; I have friends who will claim that their seminary is extremely open-minded because the girls look at copies of pages of gemara. Do you have any examples where teachers were accepting of various hashkafos?

i wasnt here in a while. but my opinion about this topic is that first of all there are many girls out there who go to sem but but they are all fakers. they go just for the name and not for any other intentions. if u are going to seminary then do it with a goal in mind. its not a game ure playing its ure future and whatever u decide to do with it will affect u forever. so i advise that if u are going for the name then just dont go its not worth it for u or for the money .

secont the whole hock about israel is crazy. i think that its 2 way. yes some girls willgo and should go because they will gain alot. others though u neeed to realize that u need to be strong enough for the experience. to be able to keep strong the whole time is not easy. and no its absolutely not for everyone and the trend is ridiculous. feel free to agrue but i remain firm hatzloche with all that u do.

First of all, I dont think many people here know what they are talking about becasue some of these opinions are just completely not true.

About the money issue- Its not 20k because you dont have to go home for pesach (I didnt and neither did about 35 other girls in my seminary) and you can get plenty of scholarships (I did even though my father makes over 200,000) and most girls contribute some of their own money for seminary(I did and so did my roommate who paid for everything that the scholarships didnt cover).

But if you will argue and say you know people who did spend 20k let me tell you that had my parents spent 50k it still wouldve been worth it. Of course this isnt true for everyone, but each parent should know their own daughter and while some girls belong in EY others really dont and just get worse.

I definitely dont think that it should be a given that everyone goes. But let me tell you about my experience.

Firstly, the learning was on a totally different level than high school. I can say without a doubt that what I learned in four years of high school doesnt even come close to what I learned in a month of seminary.

There is also the advantage that you are away from family and friends who know you well and can start life anew and grow without them bothering you and without wondering what will they think if I start doing this and this to improve myself.

WIY- You started another post about how this generation is lacking emunah. I can honestly say that while I never heard a class on emunah and bitachon in high school, in seminary we had a subject devoted to Chovos Halevavos where everyones hashkafos drastically changed for the better. I would not be the person I am today, married to the ben torah that I’m married to today and be able to face the challenges that I have, had I not gained such a strong foundation of emunah and bitachon in seminary.

No question about it- Seminary in EY is necessary for those who will benefit.

You got a scholarship even though daddy makes 200k? Youch. Daddy must have six kids in kollel and another six with tuition. Either that or sems have money they don’t know to do with. In which case, they can send it to me.

Takeh? Yavneh is only 6k – figure another 5k for dorms – takeh, that is a savings. EY is usually 14k-18k and add 2k for flights. So you can save been 5k-10k. Ok, that is money. Is E”Y worth it? For the right girl, the right sem, I suppose it’s priceless. Hmmm…but 10k can go a long way towards a degree/kollel/chasuna. Hmmmm….

But a year in Eretz Yisrael can be worth a great deal. On the other hand, you can also spend it hanging out with the equally productive ‘yeshiva boys’ in ben yehudah, which you can’t do in – oh, Atlanta.