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well stated twisted.
so right: It shtams from Machzor Vitri the same way I shtam from Belarus, i.e. my ancestors were there, but I have never seen the place. The machzor vitri makes no mention of a rav or rebbe, and definitely not of a gartel or of kabbalistic inyanim.
ItcheSrulik: And the Machzor doesn’t either say the dancers at the tantz should wear shoes with shoelaces, right? Nevertheless, the mitzvah tantz comes directly from Machzor Vitri.
WIY, I can compile much more words of comfort from Chazal and Seforim. Indeed, being Menachem Avel isn’t just mumbling Hamakom Yenachem…, as Reb Moshe and many others say, you must actually console them with words. However, my suggestion is: don’t play psychiatrist. Don’t try to explain things the way you see it, they might be bothered or hurt because they looked at it from a different angle. I personally witnessed Chai Support and Misaskim and they’re really amazing. It doesn’t pay to try and experiment if you can make things worse.
So right:
What is a mitzva tantz? What parts of it come from the machzor vitri
I would submit it simply is the point of dancing in front of the Chosson/Kallah after bentching, as the citation brought. Whether they use a gartel, shtreimel, shoelaced shoes, or flip pancakes and make jokes during the dance is all secondary and not the ikkur. But the ikkur idea itself of the mitzvah tantz today comes from the Virti Machzor.
Can one imply from those who hold of the mitzvah tantz that it is obligatory (i.e. from the term “mitzvah”) and that those of us who do not do so are acting incorrectly?
Or is the term “mitzvah” here being used colloquially?
The Wolf
whats your best guess wolf?
the controvercial aspect of the mitzva tontz is the part where the chosson and kallah dance together in public . the kroivim and the rebbbes dancing in front of the kallah is a minhag in almost all of klal yisroel for many many generations and should not be part of this discussion . as fo the mitzva tontz itself , there are a number of theorys . one is that in the olden days the custom by the goyim was for the bride and groom to have a special dance together . ( as is the custom today ) that dance was considered the highlight of the weddindg . the level of erlichkeit by the amei haaretz was not very high and the rabbunim saw that they would be able to convince them not to do the dance at all , so they decided to make sure that it does not get out of hand , and that at least only the chosson and the kalla dance , rather than everyone else joining in , they decided to stay for that part of the wedding too and appoint an erliche person to provide the entertainment and bring out how holy a wedding really is . that ceremony being that it turns a would be pritzus into a spirtual affais is indeed a special time ( if i have time ill write another pshat later )
and of course you meant “infer”
undoubtedly a rare slip, i know you know the difference
bennaishek, your analysis and coming up with theories doesn’t hold. The minhug in Yeshiva Chaim Berlin and other non-chasidim as well, is that the Choson and Kallah hold hands in public from the end of the Chuppa until the Yichud room. So I don’t see that as any different. In fact there they are even doing it in front of many non family.
whats your best guess wolf?
I have no idea what other people believe. I know what *I* would think, but since I do not have the custom to do a mitzvah tantz, what I believe about the matter is really irrelevant. I wanted to know the opinion of those who *do* do a mitzvah tantz.
and of course you meant “infer”
Yes, I did. Thank you.
The Wolf
holding hands after the chuppa is for a halachik chumra and is meant to be an expression of chiba berabim . dancing in public is an entirely different ball game
bennaishek
where might you be getting that from? my rebbi told us differently
Chosson-Kallah dance? They just hold hands and barely move. Come on.
The Chosson sways a bit and recites Ayshis Chayil while holding his Kallah’s hand!
No waltz involved!
My previous post was obviously a mistake. Mods if you can please move it to where it belongs (when an infant is niftar r”l), I’d appreciate it. Thanks in advance.
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