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Please only post what the inyan of it is not whether you think whether it’s right or not?
I didn’t have the time to look it up but there is a sefer called “Minheg Yisruel Torah” in volume 4 there is a whole section about Chasunos and since the author is very chasidish I’m sure there is a lot of sources on that topic. Bl’n if I will have time I will look it up and post it.
I’ve heard that being that the deceased grandparents and family members are present at the wedding, it is a big eis ratzon – a tremendous time for tefillah. The chosson and kallah are actually supposed to be davening at the time – not chatting with each other.
i’ve heard that the inyan is that it is believed that at the chuppah the ancestors of the chosson and kallah come down to join in the simchah, and at the mitzvah tanz they go back, and that’s the time the chosson and kallah “gezeigen zich”, they take leave of them.
Minhag Yisruel Torah is basically the authoritative reference on all Satmar minhagim. It should definitely be in there.
I thought that it was simply the mitzva of simchas chosson v’kalla, keitzad merakdin etc. with the addition of the rebbe doing his own dance a) because it would be a great simcha for the kalla that the rebbe is dancing for her and b) the various kabbalistic inyanim in the steps.
The Mitvah Tantz is brought down in the Machzer Vitri, written almost 1,000 years ago.
definitely a time of eis ratzon. supposed to be more important than the whole wedding.
amichai
“definitely a time of eis ratzon. supposed to be more important than the whole wedding.”
Hmm, and I always thought Chuppah Kiddushin and Yichud were the most important parts of the wedding….
Actually I looked it up in Minhag Yisruel Torah, There is more then 4 pages on the topic and he mentions the Machzor Vitri that after birchas hamuzen the chuson and kallah are being seated together and we dance before them. There is also refrence to the Degel Machnah Efraim on the gemura saying “Chaiyov adam letohair atzmoi beregel” meaning that a person purify himself while dancing.
wiy- Im not chassidish, but I remember speaking to someone who is and those were their thoughts. next time I’ll write my own thoughts.
cantoresq For doubting the Vailidity of the Machzor Vitri etc you should change you nickname to GROTESQUE
If the sources only say that we dance in front of the kallah, that is not necessarily a “mitzva tantz”. All Jews dance in front of the kallah, as the gemara says, “ketzaid merakdim lifnei hakalla, Beis Shammai omrim- Kallah k’maves”. (I had to throw in my joke, I’ve said that at sheva brachos.)
I thought the defining part of a mitzva tantz, is the holding the gartel, and the spelling out Hashem’s name with dancing. Now, if you can find that in the machzor vitri, then we can dicker.
The Machzor Vitri, authored by a talmid of Rashi, calls it a Mitzvah Tantz and describes the dancing.
Popa Bar Abba says;
‘the spelling out Hashem’s name with dancing. ‘
never heard that one. Very interesting.How though?
cantor, the current tantz has no outside influence. See the machzor.
cantoresq wrote
Remember early chassidut was not populated by the greatest scholars especially among the laity.
Did you mean to imply that neither were the Founders & Leaders of Chasidut the greatest scholars? ???? ????? !!!!
True the Mitzva Tantz is not (in some circles) what it should be
but to blame the early Chasidim and to say they were influenced by the Goyish environment is unmitigated Chutzpa. And is ?????? ???? ???? as practiced in some circles what ??”? meant???
For more detail of the Minhag & its origins including a direct quote & citation from Machzor Vitry go http://tinyurl.com/336vbzb & page over (using the arrow under the masthead)to ??”? ??? ?
As to the second part of tunabeigel’s question regarding the propriety of the Mitzvah Tantz, why not? It’s a nice quaint and even charming custom. It certainly is no worse than the Mezhinke Tantz.
Cantoresq
You clearly have a skewed concept of Chassidim and Chassidism. Have you actually researched Chassidism?
Every minhag of Chassidim started from the Rebbes of the individual sects. They are all based on various Halachic or Kabbalistic reasons.
No they didn’t just “borrow” things from the non Jews as the essence of Chassidism is to be different than the non Jews and be as distant from them as possible. You may want to either read some accurate books on Chassidism or speak to a knowledgeable authority on the subject instead of spewing stupidity and bias.
To add to WIY:
Even if it is a Goyish Minhag (which it seems not to be), Chassidim in the Alter Heim were also into being M’Kadesh the Goyish world around them. The Rebbe, by having Kavanos during the dancing, (maybe) is able to give a brocha that is not obtainable via another method.
cantor, the Mezhinke has no shaichos to either yiddishkeit or the mitzvah tantz. It is a newfangled thing, with no historic custom, and is pritzus considering the lack of shomer negiah between non-immediate family members.
It certainly is no worse than the Mezhinke Tantz
What a comparison!!The Mezhinke Tantz has no mekor & is clearly a custom to have crept in “Am Haaretz” Jewish practice The parents have swept their house
WIY I hope you are taking my refference to you as a compliment.
If you look in sefer ??? ??????? ???? ?”? ?”? it clearly states that you dance mitzvah tanz BEFORE the kallah not with the kallah.
some chasidim will dance with a gartel while others will without but in no case will the kallah dance.even when the father of the kallah or the chusen will hold the kallahs hand she will not dance along.
Thanks for the cite. As you can see, all it says is that we bring the chasson and kalla, and they sit next to each other, and we dance in front of them.
Nothing which is inherent to the chassidich minhag of mitzva tantz is suggested.
Not to say it is a bad minhag, it just is not from the machzor vitri.
Having now checked the citation provided by Not as well informed as WIY, I am more convinced that I am correct. The Machzor Vitry clearly says that after benching, the bride would be brought to the men and seated opposite the groom. Then young men and boys would dance before the couple and sing their praises. That custom is better reflected in the practice in Modern Orthodox and some Yeshivish weddings where during the first dance the bride comes and sits next to the groom and men dance before them. The Machzor Vitry does not at all address the Chassidic practice of a man dancing with/before the bride while they both hold a gartel or sash. And BTW R. Gross does not use the reference to the Machzor vitry as a basis for the Mitzvah Tantz. Rather he uses the reference to strengthen his view that other women should not be present during the dance and that the mechitza should not be opened for the dance. What is the basis of the current chassidic practice? It most definitely is not the Machzor Vitry. I stand by my theory until someone provides a text proof that pre-dates the Besht, for the mitzvah tantz as practiced by Chassidim today.
EDITED
I stand by my theory until someone provides a text proof that predates the Besht,
The mitzvah tantz as practiced by by some misguided Chassidim today does not stem from the Besht
BTW In Skver no one neither her father nor the Choson holds the Kala’s hand
Not as well informed as WIY
I take it as a compliment but I changed my name to WIY because I realized it was excessively forward to call myself Well Informed even if I think I am, when there are others here who are probably more well informed than I am at least in some subjects.
wiy – That’s Pshat, very nice!
I stand by my theory until someone provides a text proof that predates the Besht,
The mitzvah tantz as practiced by by some misguided Chassidim today does not stem from the Besht
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CantorEsq: What type of Mitzvah tantz does then stem from the Best? What is the basis for the current practice? BTW, the style of dance I’m referring to is done my admorin. Youtube is rife with videos of such dances. What is the basis for it?
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BTW In Skver no one neither her father nor the Choson holds the Kala’s hand
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Cantoresq: Strawman.
Assuming that cantoresq stands for Cantor Esq. (Robert or Jay?) I give up.Maybe someone who is better informed, & has better debating skills than I will take up the fight.
Beides I grew up under the influence of the ???? ???? who said ?????? ???? ????”?. What is today’s Chasidus?? Good question which I am not equipped to answer
Who said that the mitzvah tanz is not the chasidish version of Kietzad merokdin lifnei hakallah. Its a mitzvah (see gemora in Ksuvos) and diffarent folks have diffarent strokes in being mekeim the same mitzvah.
NOT AS WELL INFOREMED as to ?????? ???? ???”?
we can start a whole new thread on that (maybe in the “kavah shtible”) but lets leave it for another day.
Nobody is saying that a mitzva tantz is not the mitzva of keitzad merakdim. All we are saying is that the particulars which make it unique are not from the machzor vitri.
As such, those particulars do not have that source. They probably have some source, but it is probably not 1000 years old. (This is not something which should bother chassidim; none of their unique minhagim are very old.)
The tantz does shtam from the Vitri Machzor. Other than perhaps the nusach, most Chasidishe minhugim long predate them.
Poppa What happened to you? You mellowed so!!
If I knew what “shtam” meant, I would respond.
BP Totty? Is that you? Are you now a zaideh?
Shtam means originates
Papa what partiulars are you refering to? the ryhming? the gartel?
deiyezooger:
There is something called a mitzva tantz. I have never seen one. It is a chassidish minhag, and is considered very holy. One YWN poster even said it is more important than the whole wedding.
Whatever distinguishes it from the rest of the wedding and from regular normal custom, is the topic of this thread. That certainly includes holding the gartel, and also includes the patterns traced by the dancers, which I am told spell Hashem’s name.
It was suggested that that stemmed from the machzor vitri, but that was clearly erroneous.
So right, Helpful, Myfriend , drei nit kein kopp! The Rebbes of old would take songs from non-Jewish shepherds and say that it has a holy mekor. It very well might have happened that the minhag came from the non-Jews, but the Rebbes sanctioned it as holy. I am not saying they were wrong (I do not know enough about these things). I am sure, though, it is all shoking to you.
While little things always change with time, the ikkur of the tantz comes from the machzor vitri. As far as other minhugim, they all have sources in the Seforim HaKedoshim.
Sorry papa I was planing to answer your post in lentgh yesterday but I was just to tired to do so. In short the mitzvah tanz is usualy after bentching while sometimes a rebbe might dance other times during the wedding if his schedule dosent permit him to stay longer. The family members (grandparents, uncles, will be called upon by a badchen to dance before the chusen and kallah. Thats basically what it is. there are many different minhagim as to the details. The point that its the most important part of the wedding, obviously the chupa IS the wedding but we are talking about the spiritual part. there is also many kabalistic inyonim (like some rebbes spelling out hashems name but thats not the ikur).
thanks. sounds interesting.
Why is Lubavitch opposed to MT?
Some Poskim hold that it is ossur.
I have no idea.
it’s minhag some people have it some dont elu v’elu divrei elokim chaim
We say elu v’elu by minhagim?
Do we even say any minhagim are divrei elokim?
to me thats when we say it.
The mitvah tantz IS a very important and holy part of the wedding. Since this is so only CLOSE family is encouranged to stay so there won’t be any shaylus with tznius and the such.
Minhagim are NOT to be mocked for ANY reason no matter if you understan them or not.
“elu va’elu” was the term used for Mahlokes Hillel v Shamai. The idea you are looking for is “nahara, nahara upashtei. (each river its own flow, you get the idea?)
Not twisted at all. Vey much on target
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